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moving away from the church - 11/14/2008 3:06:54 PM
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tw12357
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A couple of my friends are moving away from church/es altogether. Its at least partially because of this book called Pagan Christianity and some book which I think is called Reforming Church which comes after that. They want to move in favor of what they call "house churches", which seems to me so far to be just a small group that meets in a house. Has anyone read these books and have an opinion?
I know a lot of people feel very religious about going to church, but I feel it isn't so much religious, but something I need for consistancy in my life. But not something I'm going to judge someone else on it.
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/14/2008 3:15:22 PM
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floydette
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Hi tw,
There will no doubt be lots of info presented about house churches on the forum. In fact, you can do a search and find several. I think about everything thing that can be said (both pro and con) has. I would suggest, reading one of the books your friends are reading. That way, whether you are convinced toward house churches or not, at least you will be on the same page regarding what they understand church to be. And, this will give you a great time of discussion while you all figure out what works best for each of your faith journeys.
f
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“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/16/2008 11:38:42 PM
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bravjim
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I've not read either one of those books. I do have questions pertaining to organized religion being called the church to begin with. The church is the living body of Christ, an organism, not an organization. We have the Spirit of God living in us, and thus we are to be led by His Spirit and His mind; not our flesh. Do I attend a church? Yes, but only to be connected to others in corporate worship and to receive the teachings that they offer. But I have learned more from my personal study than I have learned from church. What you receive from God, how well you know Him, is directly related to how much effort you put into knowing Him and His will. His word is like a mine that must be mined for wisdom and understanding on how we should live, and then putting it into practice is the fulfillment of His word and the abundant life that He has promised to us.
If your friends attending home churches leads them to grow spiritually and in their walk with God, where love, mercy, and understanding is something that is practiced, then their form of church may be more effective than attending a church where we are no more than an audience. If it leads them to practice what the bible teaches, then it is a more effective means. It gives them the opportunity to love one another for real, by teaching them how to edify one another and to walk more uprightly than being involved in a large group where it is not practical to confess to one another, lift one another up, exhort one another, or basically to edify one another.
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I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/16/2008 11:48:29 PM
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floydette
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bravjim,
I think you bring up a good point. Sometimes we look at behavior and judge it to be right or wrong. (like "how" or "where" we worship) However, as you pointed out, perhaps it is best to not look at the behavior, but rather the results (fruit, if you will) that comes out of the actions. And.....the fruit is not always immediately visible.
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/17/2008 11:54:47 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I haven't read either book but have been tempted to do so, because I would like to see if the authors are as turned off by "churchy" and "religious" stuff as I have been. However, my church-experience is very limited. Regarding home-churches, I absolutely would not be able to function in one: I got turned off from them in childhood, but again, my experience is very limited.
I do find it interesting that people are so enamored with house-churches, thinking that everyone after Acts 1 went to them, when that simply is not so, as Scripture shows.
What I have learned about people who have a biblically-compatible congregation near them, yet they refuse to go, is that they stagnate, unless they do form some kind of group that meets regularly. Usually, they have an elitist attitude about their own religiosity, a self-righteousness that will not allow them to meet socially with others, for fear of contamination by the others' lesser or inept religiosity. In my experience, these tend to desire to be teachers, but they have been found to be unacceptable by others as teachers.
Does anyone know a few points from these books, so that we can know whether or not they have any value?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/17/2008 12:08:46 PM
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Kat_D
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This subject has already been discussed at length HERE.
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~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/17/2008 12:22:44 PM
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DaveW
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Yeah - the church of Acts 21 was certainly NOT a house church - unless by "house" you refer to the Temple.
Act 21:20 They, when they heard it, glorified God. They said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Judeans of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Torah.
The greek word "thousands" is actually murias (Strongs 3461) which is more properly translated "tens of thousands." This was apparently the first "mega-church."
I have not read those books but have heard from those who have read these and other works on the "house church" movement. It seems to me to be a reaction to the lack of reality in the regular churches which improperly gets blamed on the size factor. Acts 2 talks about breaking bread (in that Jerusalem megachurch) from house to house, a tall order for over 5000 men, not including women and children. (Acts 4.4) That means they had some kind of home group system going on - which was been re-introduced to the church in the early 1970s but before that it was gaining adherents in Orthodox Judiasm in the 50s and 60s.
I would submit that reality of relationship that gets lost in the large public meeting can be maintained in a home group setting.
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/17/2008 12:31:14 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Thank you, Kat D!
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/17/2008 5:18:41 PM
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tw12357
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
This subject has already been discussed at length HERE.
Thanks there's been some interesting posts both here and on the other thread. I'm still not sure what I think, except kinda live and let live. I'm sorta attending both a house church and a regular service now.
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/17/2008 5:23:45 PM
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floydette
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tw, I think that is a good idea. See what happens!
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“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/17/2008 5:51:15 PM
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d4nnyb0y02
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When they met house to house in Acts. I'm pretty sure that wasn't a doctrinal decision... but one of necessity. If they had the luxary of a large building where everyone could meet... you can bet they would have.
I think "house church" is a bad idea. It gets you away from the bretheren, in into a holy huddle which is seriously diminishing the importance of the WHOLE body of Christ. People who do this, I believe, do so to their own harm. I'm not saying there is nothing wrong w/ meeting in a house... or having a Bible study... all this is good. But moving away from the church, as you said, away from a body of believers so that you can holy huddle up in a house... I believe is bad.
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/17/2008 5:56:23 PM
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floydette
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d4nny,
If it matters not where you meet (you said it was ok to meet in a house) why would it matter the number of people who join you? And it people are joining you, exactly how is that "get(ting) you away from the brethren"? We ARE the church, are we not?
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/17/2008 6:11:45 PM
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jn1010lf
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Hello tw12357
I suppose it depends on what they do in those house churches. Have you ever attended out of curiosity? I would be interested in knowing if they do the things that Jesus did; preach the gospel, heal the sick, deliver the oppressed and joy in the favor of the Lord. On the other hand, if they just use house church as a social thing, you know that they've strayed from God.
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/17/2008 6:29:35 PM
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jbow
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quote:
ORIGINAL: d4nnyb0y02
When they met house to house in Acts. I'm pretty sure that wasn't a doctrinal decision... but one of necessity. If they had the luxary of a large building where everyone could meet... you can bet they would have.
I think "house church", is a bad idea. It gets you away from the bretheren, in into a holy huddle which is seriously diminishing the importance of the WHOLE body of Christ. People who do this, I believe, do so to their own harm. I'm not saying there is nothing wrong w/ meeting in a house... or having a Bible study... all this is good. But moving away from the church, as you said, away from a body of believers so that you can holy huddle up in a house... I believe is bad.
I absolutely agree. I think "house church", as a substitute for a "traditional Church", is a bad idea. The Church needs the structure and it needs all the members plus... the sacraments of baptism and the supper are very important as is the receiving of the word from a PASTOR. I also think every congregation needs an oversight, someone that the leadership is answerable to for what they teach and what they do.
Some see a Church meeting as a place to find a way to minister. I see it as a place where we receive from God in the preaching of the word, baptism, and the "bread and wine". Communion is a very important part of worship.
I think there is a certain rebelliousness involved in this kind of thing. It is subtle but I think it is there. Expecially in America where we are taught from the time we can understand, to be a self reliant rugged individualist...
I can see small groups as part of a larger Church but not independent of a larger Church. I have been part of a small group and found that it was NOT something that I liked at all. Most of the others really seemed to like it but it was not something I was comfortable with. It could be that it met in my home and they never seemed to know when it was time to leave.
Julien
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"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/17/2008 6:42:13 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I have been hesitating to write this, but there really are, in my opinion, times when the only choice left is joining a small congregation in a home. I, for example, have very strong ideas toward G-d and what serves Him. If, for some reason, my place of worship folded and was no more, I would not hesitate to meet in a home with those who believe as I do. It would be very hard for me, but I would do it. I do not see that as rebellious.
If someone has such very strong beliefs and moves to an area where no one shares those beliefs, they have three choices: stay home, go to a place of worship that is as close as possible, or form a group in a home that is compatible. I cannot see that as rebellious.
And we all know that there are places where persecution is rampant. Attending a congregation in a house is not rebellious abainst G-d but may be rebellious against the government.
The fact, for me, is that if I had to go to such a gathering, I would be very uncomfortable because I am not particularly social. I do fine in a larger group, where I can interact on somewhat of a surface level, but being a part of such a gathering as a small one in a home would require much more of me, and I am not sure I could continue in it. I talk more on CW than I do IRL. This is terrible to admit, but truth is truth.
Are some of us, by any chance, rebellious against the ultra-small house-congregation because we are not able to give as much of ourselves as such a congregation would require?
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 11/17/2008 8:41:49 PM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/17/2008 6:48:00 PM
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heresjoey101
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i grew up in an old fashoned roman catholic church with the whole everyone is dammned undertone. when i turned 14 i started to refuse to go to church because of the message. i thought god couldnt be this condemning while Jesus himself told us to turn the other cheek. a few years later a friend of mine invited me to his church. at the time it was a small church meeting in a small meeting hall of a local community center, but for the first time i felt at home in a church. instead of the old "save yourself" song it was a new positive tune on how to help others be saved along with yourself. three years later i am still in that new church playing my guitar with the church band and not being afraid of the wrath of god, but loving his peace.
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/17/2008 7:54:49 PM
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Prairiehiker
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There is a movement out there that eliminates the need to belong in an organized church body, but still maintain their faith and fellowship with other believers. I listen to a program where the two people who does the podcasts are non church goers, but they are Christians and they do their Christianity differently. I kinda like them. They're not churchy, not religious, not institutionalized, but their faith is genuine. They show the love of Christ to everyone they meet, and they serve God with their lives, not just when their in church. I'd mention the name of the program that I listen to but I"m not sure if I would violate rules of the forum.
As for me, majority of my growth in my faith took place when I stayed away from church and did some one on one with God. I guess it's part of my personality, or my wiring, that social interactions doesn't make me get closer to God. But I do believe it's necessary to connect with other believers.
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/18/2008 9:17:15 AM
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d4nnyb0y02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
d4nny,
If it matters not where you meet (you said it was ok to meet in a house) why would it matter the number of people who join you? And it people are joining you, exactly how is that "get(ting) you away from the brethren"? We ARE the church, are we not?
Well, the question was about "moving away from the church." I'm not saying it's wrong to meet in a house... I'm saying it's wrong to move away from a church, just because you want to do it in your house. Like you said, WE are the church--therefore moving AWAY from a BODY of believers so that you can holy huddle up in a house instead of fellowship with the WHOLE BODY is contrary to the heart of God, I believe. It doesn't matter where you meet, but if you are choosing to meet somewhere set apart from the fellowship of other believers when you have that option... God's heart is that we function together, just as the body is supposed to.
People joining you may not be a good thing either. It might be bad. It might mean those people are also being pulled away from the body. Granted, there are many churches... and if you are starting a church, and that is what the Lord has told you to do... that's one thing. But, if you are going to your house *instead* of an already established church (and by church I assume a place that is teaching and living the Gospel), then I don't see the benefit in that, that's all.
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/18/2008 9:25:46 AM
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floydette
Posts: 1086
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quote:
ORIGINAL: d4nnyb0y02
quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
d4nny,
If it matters not where you meet (you said it was ok to meet in a house) why would it matter the number of people who join you? And it people are joining you, exactly how is that "get(ting) you away from the brethren"? We ARE the church, are we not?
Well, the question was about "moving away from the church." I'm not saying it's wrong to meet in a house... I'm saying it's wrong to move away from a church, just because you want to do it in your house. Like you said, WE are the church--therefore moving AWAY from a BODY of believers so that you can holy huddle up in a house instead of fellowship with the WHOLE BODY is contrary to the heart of God, I believe. It doesn't matter where you meet, but if you are choosing to meet somewhere set apart from the fellowship of other believers when you have that option... God's heart is that we function together, just as the body is supposed to.
People joining you may not be a good thing either. It might be bad. It might mean those people are also being pulled away from the body. Granted, there are many churches... and if you are starting a church, and that is what the Lord has told you to do... that's one thing. But, if you are going to your house *instead* of an already established church (and by church I assume a place that is teaching and living the Gospel), then I don't see the benefit in that, that's all.
Ok, I think I understand what you are saying. Here are my remaining clarifying questions. If a person meets with other people in a home, (just as an example) how is that not church? On one hand you agree that we are the church (people of God) yet you also assume that church is "a place that is teaching a living the Gospel" vs a people who are living the gospel. Can you clarify this? or for you, is it both/and?
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: moving away from the church - 11/18/2008 9:38:59 AM
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bravjim
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There are a lot of posts on here that state that it is wrong to move away from a church establishment. I disagree with this, and there is nothing that anyone can say to change my mind on the matter. The established church is about sitting in an audience more often than not. Covaan Meshuga hit the nail right on the head. The larger the church, the less involved people are with one another. It is a comfort zone. The bible teaches us to love one another, to build up and edify one another. How can we do this if we only interact on a surface level. There should be more of an accountability towards one another and with one another. Love is something that happens on a personal level.
Think about it this way. Jesus chose 12 men, the apostles, who He spent more time with than any other. He was still involved with thousands, for ministery purposes, including the Sadducees and Pharisees. He set it up like that for a reason. It was a model for us. We need to be closely involved with a small group of people in order that we have an accountability group, but we are still able to deal with and to listen to their personal problems and their personal struggles. This kind of group can and will help us grow. But we must let a ministry grow out of such a group, just as Jesus did.
Now, that does not mean that we should forsake church attendance altogether. After all, Jesus still went to the temple on the Sabbath. But I do recognize a certain stuffiness, or religiousness that has been grown into the church by the traditions of men. But it can still be a good place to get some direction towards ministry, and help the small groups connect with the larger body.
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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