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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/18/2008 7:55:19 AM
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greatdivide46
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Well, say what you will, I don't believe Paul would have become the great servant of Christ that he was if he had sent Ananias away that day. But, he didn't do that. Instead he followed Christ's instructions given through Ananias to "rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name." I just can't believe that he had had been regenerated three days prveiously and still had to have his sins washed away.
It's interesting to me that in Acts 9:17 Ananias says, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." And yet when Ananias does that, the very next verse says that Paul "regained his sight, then he rose and was baptized" but nothing about him being filled with the Holy Spirit. Almost looks like being baptized and receiving the Holy Spirit were the same thing, doen't it? But I suppose that's a whole 'nother thread. 
The point is that Paul was not regenerated in a void. He had to do something.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/19/2008 3:46:02 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Well, say what you will, I don't believe Paul would have become the great servant of Christ that he was if he had sent Ananias away that day. But, he didn't do that. I think you're stretching things a mite here. I doubt that even the most confirmed blinded by Christ atheist would have sent away the man who was going to give him back his sight..
quote:
Instead he followed Christ's instructions given through Ananias to "rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name." I just can't believe that he had had been regenerated three days prveiously and still had to have his sins washed away. To understand these words literally is to understand that Paul washed away his own sins on the basis of getting water baptized. I would hope that is an untenable position even for you :)
Just as death, burial and resurrection is a picture of baptism so also is this. Paul had already submitted to Christ in vs 10, therefore, water baptism here is simply the symbolical outward expression of this submission and remission of sin.
quote:
It's interesting to me that in Acts 9:17 Ananias says, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." And yet when Ananias does that, the very next verse says that Paul "regained his sight, then he rose and was baptized" but nothing about him being filled with the Holy Spirit. Almost looks like being baptized and receiving the Holy Spirit were the same thing, doen't it? But I suppose that's a whole 'nother thread. Actually, Paul demonstrated being "filled with the Holy Spirit" as he straightway began to preach the Gospel.
quote:
The point is that Paul was not regenerated in a void. He had to do something.
To be regenerated is to be spiritually born from above. Just as we are not responsible for our physical birth neither is it possible to be responsible for our spiritual birth - we cannot give birth to ourselves.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/19/2008 8:02:43 AM
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rwe2156
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quote:
KELMAN: What is "general", though, is that God sovereignly regenerates
without man's "permission" - man is totally passive in regeneration. I know, I know
...blasphemy to a autonomous free willer.
Mod, I know this is off thread, but I'll only mention it once:
1. I am not an "autonomous free willer" (as if free will has to be qualified as autonomous!)
2. I do not believe man gives God permission to do anything.
3. Regeneration is totally and completely a supernatural act of God.
4. The only thing men are able to do is repent.
Why do you think Jesus said what he did?
"Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" - Why did Jesus say this?
He fell to the ground, he was not struck down as some believe!
He was not "zapped".
I don't believe Paul had a choice in the matter - God chose him for service to prove a point.
The "free gift" is not disproven by the example of Paul.
It maybe "free" but it cost everything!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/19/2008 8:30:09 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I think you're stretching things a mite here. I doubt that even the most confirmed blinded by Christ atheist would have sent away the man who was going to give him back his sight. I quite agree.
quote:
To understand these words literally is to understand that Paul washed away his own sins on the basis of getting water baptized. I would hope that is an untenable position even for you :) Yes, it is. Obviously Paul could not wash away his own sins, but he could do what Ananias asked him to do, the result of which was the washing away of his sins. The two actions that Ananias asked Paul to take was to rise and be baptized. Which of these, do you think, result in the washing away of his sins?
quote:
Actually, Paul demonstrated being "filled with the Holy Spirit" as he straightway began to preach the Gospel. Yes he did. I wasn't saying that Paul wasn't filled with the Holy Spirit. It's just interesting to me that his being filled with the Holy Spirit isn't mentioned but his baptism is.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/19/2008 8:32:26 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
2. I do not believe man gives God permission to do anything. So God works in a person's life without their permission and against their will? I don't think so. Certainly God could work that way, but I think He's too much of a gentleman to intrude into a life where He's not wanted.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/19/2008 3:39:39 PM
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Him4all
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Greatdivide,
quote:
However, to MAKE him a minister implies that it'll happen sometime in the future, not immediately. Do you really think Paul was a minister of Christ for three days while he was blind, fasting, praying and still living in his sins?
I agree the word 'make' could apply to the future, but as I pointed out in Paul's testimony to Agrippa, I don't think that's what happened. I do understand your POV though. As far a being a minister those three days??? I believe he was, but that view is based upon what Jesus said being true the day He said it...inspite of outward appearances that you correctly point out concerning the next three days.
I'm not sure what you mean about Paul still "living in his sins" for that three day period though???
Kelman,
quote:
A very excellent point. Christ said He made Paul a "minister" which means a servant of His. God does all the work, does all that is necessary to bring a spiritually dead man to spiritual life.
Hmmm you have me thinking and I am inclined to agree we're born again first and then confess. I haven't been a Berean about that POV I guess, but it does make sense that a 'dead' man can choose a spiritual truth that he is incapable of making...if that's the jist of 1Cor 2:14...Hmmm??? I guess we'll just have to see what fish get stirred up with this 'can of worms'.  Personally I was probably a bit inclined prior, since I wasn't a 'free willer' to begin with.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/19/2008 9:27:02 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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From: Kansas
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greatdivide46,
quote:
Why would Paul be admonished to wash away his sins if they had already been washed away three days previously on the road?
You might not see this like I do but I'll run it by you anyway. I see a difference between having my sins forgiven for the purpose of spirit rebirth...and having them washed away for a saving of ones consience/soul (1Pet 3:21). I think the inward and personal reality of forgiveness happened 'three days' before the external and public ritual. That doesn't mean I think that something substantive doesn't still happen to a person going through that which is ritual and symbolic. But I think it is special, in the same way that the handkerchiefs and aprons of Paul were special, when people got healed by touching them.
I think that if Paul would have died in that three day period he would have still been saved...just like someone accepting Jesus just before death. They didn't get water baptized and they didn't get baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire (I'm still charismatic OK )...but they still experienced the first baptism of repentance to get born again, I believe. Do you believe in the possibility of a deathbed confession?
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 4:59:22 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
KELMAN: What is "general", though, is that God sovereignly regenerates
without man's "permission" - man is totally passive in regeneration. I know, I know
...blasphemy to a autonomous free willer.
3. Regeneration is totally and completely a supernatural act of God.
4. The only thing men are able to do is repent. It may be a supernatural act of God; but, cannot be "totally and completely" of God since you think you participated in it.
quote:
He fell to the ground, he was not struck down as some believe!
He was not "zapped".
Greatdivide used the word humorously as I did. It is simply to indicate that it was a high-velocity act of God upon a sinner and one for which the sinner had no input or responsibility.
quote:
I don't believe Paul had a choice in the matter - God chose him for service to prove a point.
What "point" did God have to prove?
Obviously, Paul had no choice in the matter just as he had no choice that it was at this moment in time God regenerated him unto salvation and, yes, also to service.
This is a model for all those whom God regenerates. All whom God saves are elected also to service. All are now qualified and commanded to bring the Word of God. We see this taught in the account of Pentecost in Acts.
quote:
It maybe "free" but it cost everything! Not for the sinner it didn't. The sinner paid nothing, in fact, the sinner can pay nothing.
Isaiah 55:1 "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price."
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 5:02:42 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
To understand these words literally is to understand that Paul washed away his own sins on the basis of getting water baptized. I would hope that is an untenable position even for you :) Yes, it is. Obviously Paul could not wash away his own sins, but he could do what Ananias asked him to do, the result of which was the washing away of his sins. The two actions that Ananias asked Paul to take was to rise and be baptized. Which of these, do you think, result in the washing away of his sins? Neither. Paul had already expressed faith in and submissison to the Lord Jesus Christ in verse 10. This is the evidence of salvation, the evidence that Paul's sins had been washed away.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 5:08:55 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
quote:
A very excellent point. Christ said He made Paul a "minister" which means a servant of His. God does all the work, does all that is necessary to bring a spiritually dead man to spiritual life.
Hmmm you have me thinking and I am inclined to agree we're born again first and then confess. Yes, this is what the Lord is teaching in John 3:4-8. The Holy Spirit is like the wind it goes where and when it pleases. By His action alone we are made spiritually alive. We are taken from Satan's kingdom to that of the Lord Jesus' kingdom. We go from darkness to light...from death to life.
quote:
I haven't been a Berean about that POV I guess, but it does make sense that a 'dead' man can choose a spiritual truth that he is incapable of making...if that's the jist of 1Cor 2:14...Hmmm??? I guess we'll just have to see what fish get stirred up with this 'can of worms'. Personally I was probably a bit inclined prior, since I wasn't a 'free willer' to begin with.
God speaks of our hearts being desperately wicked and evil above all things(Jer 17:9)...we can't savingly believe from this type of heart. Therefore, God declares that He will give us a new heart and a new spirit so we might obey(Eze 36:26). Now, we are no longer the natural man but the spiritual man.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 7:10:10 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
It may be a supernatural act of God; but, cannot be "totally and completely" of
God since you think you participated in it.
I don't think I participated in it (the act).
quote:
What "point" did God have to prove?
He can use anyone he chooses for any purpose he has planned.
1Cor 1:27-29.
quote:
Not for the sinner it didn't. The sinner paid nothing, in fact, the sinner can pay nothing.
I cost Christ everything was my point.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 7:30:53 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
greatdivide46,
quote:
Why would Paul be admonished to wash away his sins if they had already been washed away three days previously on the road?
You might not see this like I do but I'll run it by you anyway. I see a difference between having my sins forgiven for the purpose of spirit rebirth...and having them washed away for a saving of ones consience/soul (1Pet 3:21). I think the inward and personal reality of forgiveness happened 'three days' before the external and public ritual. That doesn't mean I think that something substantive doesn't still happen to a person going through that which is ritual and symbolic. But I think it is special, in the same way that the handkerchiefs and aprons of Paul were special, when people got healed by touching them. You are correct, I don't see this the way you do
I don't see a difference in having one's sins forgiven and having them washed away. To me the terms are synonymous. I believe that the inward, personal reality and the external, outward ritual occur simultaneously. I do agree, though, that the ritual is symbolic.
quote:
I think that if Paul would have died in that three day period he would have still been saved...just like someone accepting Jesus just before death. They didn't get water baptized and they didn't get baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire (I'm still charismatic OK )...but they still experienced the first baptism of repentance to get born again, I believe. Do you believe in the possibility of a deathbed confession? Yes, I do believe in the possibility of a deathbed conversion. I don't believe, however, that Paul was ever near death and I'm not convinced that if he had died during that three day period he would have been saved. I don't believe that simply having an encounter with the risen Christ necessarily results in salvation.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 7:38:08 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Paul had already expressed faith in and submissison to the Lord Jesus Christ in verse 10. This is the evidence of salvation, the evidence that Paul's sins had been washed away.
Are you talking about verse 10 in Acts 22? If so, I don't believe that calling Jesus "Lord" in any way indicates forgiveness of sins. I mean Paul didn't even know who it was when he uttered the word "Lord."
In any case, Paul's actions for the next three days hardly are the actions of someone who has just had their sins washed away. He should have been "leaping and praising" God, but instead he was blind, praying, and not eating. I think he thought he was in deep trouble with God and he didn't know what to do about it.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 1:24:52 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
greatdivide46,
I guess I just don't fully understand then. Do you think water baptism is essential for initial salvation or not? Yes, I do, under normal circumstances. Certainly a deathbed conversion is not normal and I think God takes that into consideration.
quote:
I guess I can't imagine someone having a physical encounter with the risen Christ, like Paul did, without salvation being the immediate outcome. He certainly didn't have to think about anything for three days, at that point. Not in my opinion anyway. In my opinion he had a lot to think about for three days. That's why he was praying and fasting. He was thinking about what it was he had to do.
quote:
Annanias did call him "Brother Saul" before Paul was healed or baptized and I think that is significant (Act 9:17). If Annanias called him "Bro" I figure he was.  Amen, I quite agree. Paul and Ananias were brother Jews. They were not yet brothers in Christ, because Paul had not yet had his sins washed away.
quote:
PS I certainly didn't "leap and jump" after I was saved...do you think I'm still OK though?
Yep, I'm sure you are
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 5:11:30 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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quote:
quote:
PS I certainly didn't "leap and jump" after I was saved...do you think I'm still OK though?
Yep, I'm sure you are
Whewww, that's a relief. Well brother, I guess we'll just have to wait and let Dad tell us who's right. Might not be either of us.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 6:42:48 PM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
It may be a supernatural act of God; but, cannot be "totally and completely" of
God since you think you participated in it.
I don't think I participated in it (the act). Since God does not regenerate without your permission, I'd say you certainly participated in it. You can't have it both ways - either the supernatural act of regeneration is totally of God or you participated in it by your acceptance, decision, choice, whatever.
quote:
quote:
What "point" did God have to prove?
He can use anyone he chooses for any purpose he has planned.
1Cor 1:27-29. Except, of course, God cannot elect anyone for salvation, right?
quote:
quote:
Not for the sinner it didn't. The sinner paid nothing, in fact, the sinner can pay nothing.
I cost Christ everything was my point.
I know what your point was, though, it seems you miss the point Scripture is making in Isaiah 55:1.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 6:45:44 PM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I don't see a difference in having one's sins forgiven and having them washed away. Good, because there is no difference. Water, otoh, can do nothing but wash dirt from the skin - not the heart.
quote:
I believe that the inward, personal reality and the external, outward ritual occur simultaneously. I do agree, though, that the ritual is symbolic.
Symbols are just that - symbolic, they are figurative, representational, they are shadows, they point to something else; but, they are not the something else. Just like the shadow of the tree is not the tree. The shadow has no substance, it is not the reality. The tree can exist without the shadow; but, the shadow is nothing without the tree.
We see the same as we partake of the elements of the Lord's Supper, we are symbolically partaking of the broken body and shed blood of the Lord Jesus. IOW, this is a sign that points to the truth that if we have become saved, we have been given eternal life because Christ gave His life for us.
Water baptism is like the "shadow of heavenly things" that Paul speaks about in Heb 8:5, 10:1.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 6:50:23 PM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Paul had already expressed faith in and submissison to the Lord Jesus Christ in verse 10. This is the evidence of salvation, the evidence that Paul's sins had been washed away.
Are you talking about verse 10 in Acts 22? Yes.
quote:
If so, I don't believe that calling Jesus "Lord" in any way indicates forgiveness of sins. I mean Paul didn't even know who it was when he uttered the word "Lord." Of course, Paul knew who had appeared to him, the Lord told him who He was. We see this in Acts 9:5 "....I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:" Paul showed the evidence of regeneration right there as he recognized Jesus as Lord and humbly submitted to His command.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 9:39:34 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
It may be a supernatural act of God; but, cannot be "totally and completely" of
God since you think you participated in it.
I don't think I participated in it (the act). Since God does not regenerate without your permission, I'd say you certainly participated in it. You can't have it both ways - either the supernatural act of regeneration is totally of God or you participated in it by your acceptance, decision, choice, whatever.
Regeneration and believing are two separate events.
Regeneration is a sovereign act of God only dependent on our
meeting the condition of repentance and faith.
I don't think God regenerated me with my permission.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 9:41:09 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Good, because there is no difference. Water, otoh, can do nothing but wash dirt from the skin - not the heart. Agreed.
quote:
Symbols are just that - symbolic, they are figurative, representational, they are shadows, they point to something else; but, they are not the something else. Just like the shadow of the tree is not the tree. The shadow has no substance, it is not the reality. The tree can exist without the shadow; but, the shadow is nothing without the tree. Again I agree, although I have to admit I have yet to see a tree that doesn't cast a shadow.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 9:46:58 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Of course, Paul knew who had appeared to him, the Lord told him who He was. We see this in Acts 9:5 "....I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:" Paul showed the evidence of regeneration right there as he recognized Jesus as Lord and humbly submitted to His command. Yes, Paul knew who had appeared to him, but Jesus had not yet identified Himself when Paul uttered the word "Lord." Therefore, the word "Lord" did not refer to Jesus as Lord. Paul said, "Who are you, Lord?" Obviously at the point he didn't know who he was talking to. Therefore, I don't believe that was evidence of regeneration.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2008 3:54:44 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
It may be a supernatural act of God; but, cannot be "totally and completely" of
God since you think you participated in it.
I don't think I participated in it (the act). Since God does not regenerate without your permission, I'd say you certainly participated in it. You can't have it both ways - either the supernatural act of regeneration is totally of God or you participated in it by your acceptance, decision, choice, whatever.
Regeneration and believing are two separate events. Precisely why we have no input into regeneration.
quote:
Regeneration is a sovereign act of God only dependent on our
meeting the condition of repentance and faith. "only dependent"?....then it's not much of a "sovereign" act is it? That is not the definition of "sovereign". Your definition requires God's dependence on man to do something. In fact, you add your human will so it is not a "sovereign" act of God at all. It, therefore, violates what we see in John 3 and other passages as well.
quote:
I don't think God regenerated me with my permission.
You just said He did, in fact. You said God regenerates because of your faith and repentance. It is your faith and repentance which gives God the "permission" to regenerate you.
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