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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 11:25:00 PM
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disciplelife
Posts: 61
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
God clearly says differently than you do. God teaches that He has freely given us all things.
Yes! Including free will... and just enough rope to hang ourselves!
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But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 10:22:56 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: disciplelife
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
God clearly says differently than you do. God teaches that He has freely given us all things.
Yes! Including free will... and just enough rope to hang ourselves!
Which has NOTHING to do with eternal security.
That's another thread...LOL
Unless...you are saying you "FREELY"
came to The Lord and you can "FREELY" go.
Sounds like a dysfunctional realtionship.
You leave...you return...you leave again...
Is this your view of salvation ?...WOW !
Who exemplifies this in The Bible ?
This makes me wonder about evangelizing !!!
Here is what I hear you saying to convert:
OK, you're in, and that's cool-it's all good.
But you gotta behave, gotta stay clean.
If you slip up..you are done dude !
I don't know how many times or how long,
all I know is you could lose this at ANYTIME !!!
The new convert asks you inquisitively:
So, this thing isn't guaranteed...
I didn't know what I was getting into with this-
I don't know how long it's good for ?
Salvation has as an EXPIRATION DATE !!!!
Dude, I got enough worries, I don't need this !
This is your teaching...you CANNOT refute it
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Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 11:57:42 AM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
That's what I'm saying. The bible would have been a whole heck of a lot shorter if there hadn't been so much time wasted giving us directions we don't need in the first place. You know, seeing how we're all living under grace and all; 100% assured of being saved without having to change anything at all about our behavior. Just have to say "Jesus, I'm yours!" and that's that. Whew... sure takes a load off of my mind! yanno?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
I am unfamiliar with your verbiage...sorry !
"You know, seeing how we're all living under grace and all"
What does that mean, aren't we under grace ?
Or are we under law ? Please elaborate what law(s).
This is obviously a sarcastic statement directed to those that believe Gods abundant free grace = ticket to sin.
quote:
"100% assured of being saved without having to
change anything at all about our behavior"
You concluded by saying this...sounds work-sy.
Would you not equate behavior of YOUR children (gathering you have some) with either obedience or disobedience. Works and obedience is WAYYYYYYYYYYY different. One is a submissive action to an authority i.e. father (obedience) and another is something you can boast about, something you can measure (works).
quote:
So change was brought about by you, not God ?
We have to change to "be" saved ?...WOW !!!
We have to be good to keep ourselves saved ?
That's what you are saying...or am I incorrect ?
God does the knocking first, God does the changing. He brings you to brokenness over your sin. He brings you to morning over it. He brings you to repentance.
This is when a supernatural change happens. When you are made new. This is action by God. If you have not been changed and continue to desire the things that God hates and pursue the things that God wants, I submit you are not born again.
quote:
Why does behavior play a role in my salvation ?
Is there a limit to my bad behavior ?
How do I know if I am behaving badly ?
Salvation is a gift it requires action to reach out and take it.
Limit to bad behavior... horrible question, but ok, why would you want to measure your bad behaviour. We are not to measure our works, why would you want to measure your bad behaviour. If you are truly born again, this question would not even be an issue.
The last question here is a great question!!! 
2 Corinthians 13:5-9
5Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? 6And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test. 7Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong. Not that people will see that we have stood the test but that you will do what is right even though we may seem to have failed. 8For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. 9We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection.
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So you are living your Christian life in doubt ?
At any time you could slip and lose it all ?
How many times have you lost it ?
How do you get it back after you lose it ?
No not in doubt, but always doing a spot check for sure. Christian faith is not about a 5 minute prayer and a 2 hour sermon every week, it is daily all the time.
Yes I believe you can slip (stumble), God will pick you up reprimand you and put you back on the path.
I don't think its a matter of how many times have one lost it; moreover, how many times you thought you had it and never did.
Well I addressed lost it in the last, but "get back" or "be outside falsehood" would be repent.
Cheers brother!!!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 5:42:15 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Don't you feel embarassed by your hostile, unloving attiude ?
And as any veteran board bouncer knows thats
DYFEYHUA (or difee hoyya for short).
An obscure ancient Aramaic slang expression meaning:
"pouring hot coals but got them all over me! (hoyya is "ouch")
Is comedy actually a sin? It is technically lying, you know.
Or is not leaving it to the professionals just a crime?
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The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/6/2008 4:31:08 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
And though God designed perfectly serious warnings in Scripture. They function as warnings to direct our steps in the path he has ordained for us (Eph 2:8-10) - not to illustrate how the truly regenerate might lose their salvation.
I've never understood why, if everything about our salvation is an irrevokable gift from God, we would need to have "warnings to direct our steps in the path he has ordained for us." I mean, if we have nothing to do with our own salvation, it seems to me that there is nothing we can do to lose it, therefore the "God designed, perfectly serious warnings in Scripture" are totally superfluous and unnecessary. While it's true salvation is irrevokable and even predestined, we still must learn to live properly before God. Without all those "warnings" some would think that a change of lifestyle, a turning from sin is almost optional.
In fact, there are many churches that teach we can walk away from Christ and still be saved and received into heaven....this despite the warnings from God. The Lord Jesus tells us if we love Him we will keep His commandments. This is an excellent method of examining ourselves to determine if we are truly saved. Do we earnestly desire to learn all that the Bible has to teach us? Do we earnestly desire to be obedient to all that we learn? Do we give-up practices or doctrines not proven from Scripture?
The Lord analogised regeneration with the first physical birth. In both cases the "infant" has much to be instructed in. I really don't see why we would think our spiritual birth would not include instructions on how to live a godly life. These "instructions" would of necessity include warnings about what displeases God. Isn't this what sanctification is all about?
quote:
Also, I'm wondering if the "eternal" in eternal life refers to the life itself and not to the length of time we possess it. I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean here, divide. The adjective "eternal" modifies the noun "life". The "length of time" of life is eternal which means forever and ever.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/6/2008 4:41:13 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
Ok we clearly and will always disagree about the mark. You have given me zero proof it is strictly spiritual. I believe it is both physical and spiritual. The "proof" you request is in the fact that the Book of Revelation is the "vision" seen by John. Have you checked out Nebuchadnezzar's night vision/dream which had to be interpreted by Daniel? Do you intend to take the following literally also, rather than recognize that God is speaking metaphorically?
"This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33his legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."
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The term itself should be self-explanatory. The Lamb shed His blood only for those written in the Lamb's Book and therefore can never be removed. We do not become saved then unsaved, we do not go from sheep to goats. The Lord Jesus does not unshed His blood. God does not rescind His gift to us - salvation and eternal life.
And these names were written from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. ummm where do you get these names were written from the foundation of the world from this verse? "whose names are NOT written in the book of the life of the lamb from the foundation of the world". Do you think the Lamb's Book is somehow empty of names? The fact that certain names were never written into the Book, which contains names, presupposes the fact there were names in the book. This verse is referring to the non-elect at the time this prophesy will be fulfilled. That is to say those "whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb" are the non-elect, and the elect are those whose names are written in the book of life of the Lamb.
Besides, we need only compare this verse to other (Book) verses, indeed, compare it to all of Scripture, and when taken together it shows the names in the Lamb's Book are never removed. They cannot be removed because they are the names of all the elect who will come to salvation throughout history.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
quote:
This doesn't support your argument, it supports mine. If you are "christian" and your practice the lawlessness described above... It more so proves your name was never written in the book of life if you continue to commit the habitual sin noted above. It would appear that you don't know what my argument is if you think I'm advocating "habitual sin".
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All mankind has their name written in the Book of Life; and as they die unsaved, their names are blotted out. One by one...blotted out so that by the end of time, both “books” will have the same names in them. The Lamb’s Book contained all those named to be saved from before the foundation of the world. The Book of Life would have had blotted out all names of those who never became saved. There will, in effect, be "one" book left. Again, two become 1...
Always good to end on a highnote, at least we can agree on this.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/6/2008 5:07:47 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
That word “heiligmaking” is “holiness” in the King James. It is “hagiasmos” in Greek. It literally means, “a continuous state of holiness”, can also be translated as “purification” an “sanctification”. According to this verse it’s impossible to go to heaven without purification, sanctification and holiness. " Then I suppose you and your friend must believe in a "purgatory" to become "purified"?
No, we don't nor indeed can we purify ourselves - the blood of the Lord Jesus does that. Do we grow in holiness, grow in sanctification?....yes of course we do. But, no where does Scripture teach that a true believer will not sin.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
God clearly says differently than you do. God teaches that He has freely given us all things. Yes! I'm glad you agree that faith, repentence, salvation are the free gifts of God....unfortunately, some do not.
quote:
Including free will... and just enough rope to hang ourselves!
We all are born hanging from the end of a rope. If God did not overcome our "free will" - a will so free that it is in bondage to Satan - we would remain on the end of that rope - dead in sin and condemned.
quote:
Works and obedience is WAYYYYYYYYYYY different. One is a submissive action to an authority i.e. father (obedience) and another is something you can boast about, something you can measure (works). A work is anything you do in response to the Gospel; and, most assuredly, that includes obedience.
quote:
God does the knocking first, God does the changing. He brings you to brokenness over your sin. He brings you to morning over it. He brings you to repentance. This is when a supernatural change happens. When you are made new. This is action by God. I agree, it is all the action of God...the gifts of faith and repentence; but, I would argue the timeline. These are the result of God's supernatural act upon your heart. And, because it is all the work, and the plan of God from before the foundation of the world, the Lord Jesus will not lose one. All that He planned to save will become saved and stay saved.
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If you have not been changed and continue to desire the things that God hates and pursue the things that God wants, I submit you are not born again. I wouldn't argue with that, it's all quite true. God also desires that we learn and obey His Word. If we hold practices that cannot be found therein - we should give these up. This also is an evidence of being "born from above".
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That is the point raivyne is trying to make, you don't "lose" your salvation as in "God takes it away". You walk away from it, you shove it back in the Face of Christ who died for your sin. That is what she is saying. I submit your "loss" or lack thereof in salvation is your doing not Christ's. No, God is clear salvation can never be lost. He, of course, will never take it from the true believer nor is it possible for the true believer to ever finally walk away from God. God is clear that He preserves the one for whom Christ gave His life - nothing and no one can snatch the sheep from the hand of God.
The doctrine of losing one's salvation is a dangerous one because it effectively makes our works grounds for salvation. If we believe that by God's grace we are saved but because we are weak in ourselves and depart from the law of God, we stand guilty before God, then effectively we are declaring that a condition of our salvation is that we do good works. IOW, we think we are saved by God's grace in some sense, but in actuality, we attempt to gain our salvation by living some kind of a holy life.
Remember that in James 2:10 God declares that if we have broken one of the smallest points of the law, we are guilty of the whole law of God. IOW, if we think we can be saved by doing good works, we have elected to follow a salvation plan whereby we have to be absolutely perfect before Him. But, praise God that our salvation is of grace. The works that we do result from God's grace in our lives.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/6/2008 5:18:54 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: discipleforlife
We must have the faith to accept the God’s grace which he has shown us before we were even born. Where do you get God has "shown us[faith] before we were even born" in Eph 2:7-10? We didn't exist before we were born; although, it is true the names of all the elect were written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world. But this doesn't have anything to do with us having been shown faith before we were born. That is indeed a very odd view.
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The blatant and open sinning of those who have dishonored Christ by their profession of Christianity proves their salvation is highly questionable. When asked how they can claim to be saved while they live in sin, their explanation is always about their faith in the doctrine of eternal security . . . and never about their faith in Christ! That's not completely true. Many belief that because they once exhibited "faith" in Christ, they are eternally secure. And, yes, this once upon a time faith does not require repentence/turning from sin.
And then, there are others who believe God when He tells us we can never lose our salvation because the Lord Jesus Christ is the "author and finisher" of our faith. And we believe God when He tells us "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/6/2008 7:44:51 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Also, I'm wondering if the "eternal" in eternal life refers to the life itself and not to the length of time we possess it.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean here, divide. The adjective "eternal" modifies the noun "life". The "length of time" of life is eternal which means forever and ever.
Yes, I understand that the "eternal" in eternal life means forever and ever. But does that mean that when we possess eternal life that we possess it eternally? If it has a beginning (as our possession of it surely does), can that possession really be called "eternal?" Or is eternal life even a possession at all?
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/6/2008 3:25:48 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
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quote:
Then I suppose you and your friend must believe in a "purgatory" to become "purified"?
This was not implying literal fire purgatory at all… I’m not going into a whole other topic of sanctification / purification by the blood of Christ on this thread.
quote:
No, we don't nor indeed can we purify ourselves - the blood of the Lord Jesus does that. Do we grow in holiness, grow in sanctification?....yes of course we do. But, no where does Scripture teach that a true believer will not sin.
I never said true a believer doesn’t sin. I say a true believer doesn’t live in sin. Meaning a good Paul Washer analogy I learned was someone who is an unchanged sinner, doesn’t’ matter if you follow them around with a video camera or a still picture camera, you will see a sinful person. If you follow a truly changed Christian around, you could take pictures of him in instances of weakness and call him a sinner, but then if you followed him around with a video camera, you can clearly see he walks in righteousness and is being truly himself because he is supernaturally changed by God.
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We all are born hanging from the end of a rope. If God did not overcome our "free will" - a will so free that it is in bondage to Satan - we would remain on the end of that rope - dead in sin and condemned.
I agree. Although I do lean more toward predestination… technically we do have choice “free will”; however, We are slaves to sin until we are redeemed by Christ. He chooses us first then we must accept! Not the other way around. I do not believe someone simply seeks Jesus out, but Jesus comes to him to give him that open heart of flesh (removing the heart of stone).
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A work is anything you do in response to the Gospel; and, most assuredly, that includes obedience.
Hmmm well then what is faith to you? because faith without action is dead…
No matter how you look at it you can’t just sit there say you believe in Jesus and do nothing. When the lord talks about “not living according to the law” he wasn’t talking about not obeying him as it says later in both Romans and the last couple chapters of Galatians. Again another whole topic on its own… “what is the law that condemns”.
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I agree, it is all the action of God...the gifts of faith and repentence; but, I would argue the timeline. These are the result of God's supernatural act upon your heart. And, because it is all the work, and the plan of God from before the foundation of the world, the Lord Jesus will not lose one. All that He planned to save will become saved and stay saved.
Yes.. he won’t lose 1 that he has chosen, they accepted the gift, redeemed and changed… what about all the people who are not changed, live their same old life, say they believe in Jesus (and really mean it), yet continue to live a carnal wicked life, but think they are going to heaven??? “lord, lord I cast out demons and prophesied in your name and the lord will say “get from my sight one who practices lawlessness”. That’s someone who lives a life in sin… like God didn’t give them a law to obey.
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No, God is clear salvation can never be lost. He, of course, will never take it from the true believer nor is it possible for the true believer to ever finally walk away from God. God is clear that He preserves the one for whom Christ gave His life - nothing and no one can snatch the sheep from the hand of God.
The doctrine of losing one's salvation is a dangerous one because it effectively makes our works grounds for salvation. If we believe that by God's grace we are saved but because we are weak in ourselves and depart from the law of God, we stand guilty before God, then effectively we are declaring that a condition of our salvation is that we do good works. IOW, we think we are saved by God's grace in some sense, but in actuality, we attempt to gain our salvation by living some kind of a holy life.
Remember that in James 2:10 God declares that if we have broken one of the smallest points of the law, we are guilty of the whole law of God. IOW, if we think we can be saved by doing good works, we have elected to follow a salvation plan whereby we have to be absolutely perfect before Him. But, praise God that our salvation is of grace. The works that we do result from God's grace in our lives.
I can lead you to tons of websites of “ex-christians” that really don’t want to have anything to do with God anymore, onces apparently who were practicing Christians, born again apparently and the whole nine yards… Now infact some have committed suicide and some believe in other religions now. You telling me that they are still saved even though they are worshiping other Gods? Killing themselves and slandering the name of Jesus like you wouldn’t believe… These were people that were Christian for many many years and practiced it and believed it and everything, until apparently “God did something that they didn’t like i.e. didn’t heal them from an ailment etc… or someone in their family died and now they blame the God they loved.” I actually talked to one girl that says in her blog statement that she wants to Go to hell because she rather burn for eternity and be in a completely different place then God now… So I don’t know…
I think this is the breaking point of your relationship with God.. is it selfish or truly for him. I don’t believe someone who is fully for God and with God 100% like the bible says, they cannot turn away.. the thought of it would be heart wrenching.. everyone else… were the truly saved to begin with?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/6/2008 6:58:16 PM
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disciplelife
Posts: 61
Joined: 9/23/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: discipleforlife
We must have the faith to accept the God’s grace which he has shown us before we were even born. Where do you get God has "shown us[faith] before we were even born" in Eph 2:7-10? We didn't exist before we were born; although, it is true the names of all the elect were written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world. But this doesn't have anything to do with us having been shown faith before we were born. That is indeed a very odd view.
For clarity's sake, it should be read: We must have the faith to accept God's grace (present tense)... a grace which he has shown us before we were born (past tense). Better?
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The blatant and open sinning of those who have dishonored Christ by their profession of Christianity proves their salvation is highly questionable. When asked how they can claim to be saved while they live in sin, their explanation is always about their faith in the doctrine of eternal security . . . and never about their faith in Christ!
That's not completely true. Many belief that because they once exhibited "faith" in Christ, they are eternally secure. And, yes, this once upon a time faith does not require repentence/turning from sin.
And what a sad moment for them will it be when they appear before the Throne to answer for their life of sin as a supposed "Christian", huh?
quote:
And then, there are others who believe God when He tells us we can never lose our salvation because the Lord Jesus Christ is the "author and finisher" of our faith. And we believe God when He tells us "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
And when they discover that it was not God's will, nor his good pleasure, for them to live a life of continued sin after claiming themselves as heirs in his Kingdom... I'm thinking eternal damnation is what they will inherit. (for added insight please refer to post #3722 of this same thread)
< Message edited by disciplelife -- 10/6/2008 7:17:29 PM >
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But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/6/2008 8:50:26 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
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Gal 5:13-26
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
Life by the Spirit
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Galatians 6:7-9
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 4:29:31 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Also, I'm wondering if the "eternal" in eternal life refers to the life itself and not to the length of time we possess it.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean here, divide. The adjective "eternal" modifies the noun "life". The "length of time" of life is eternal which means forever and ever.
Yes, I understand that the "eternal" in eternal life means forever and ever. But does that mean that when we possess eternal life that we possess it eternally? If it has a beginning (as our possession of it surely does), can that possession really be called "eternal?" Or is eternal life even a possession at all?
Okay, now I see what you mean. Strong's has three definitions of eternal. The third definition is what describes the believer's eternal life in Christ.
1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting
About whether it can be said we possess eternal life, perhaps that stems from believers being said to have "obtained an inheritance". Possess also is defined as something we "hold". Rom 2:7 says that eternal life is immortality.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 4:36:13 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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ORIGINAL: dyluck
I never said true a believer doesn’t sin. I say a true believer doesn’t live in sin. I don't disagree. A believer's life will change even if it wasn't a particularly sinful one.
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We all are born hanging from the end of a rope. If God did not overcome our "free will" - a will so free that it is in bondage to Satan - we would remain on the end of that rope - dead in sin and condemned.
I agree. Although I do lean more toward predestination… technically we do have choice “free will”; however, We are slaves to sin until we are redeemed by Christ. That we are slaves and in bondage to sin and Satan would mitigate against a "technical" ability to make a totally free choice to serve Christ. But, I agree with you, when the Holy Spirit regenerates us and we become "born from above", our wills are set free so that we will turn to Christ.
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He chooses us first then we must accept! Not the other way around. I do not believe someone simply seeks Jesus out, but Jesus comes to him to give him that open heart of flesh (removing the heart of stone). I agree, though, I would say that if God has chosen us we will come to Christ.
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A work is anything you do in response to the Gospel; and, most assuredly, that includes obedience. Hmmm well then what is faith to you? because faith without action is dead… Faith is a gift from God, a fruit of the Holy Spirit. I agree, we cannot be said to have faith in Christ if other good works are not in evidence.
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No matter how you look at it you can’t just sit there say you believe in Jesus and do nothing. Very true, if we have saving faith, our lives will certainly be changed.
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When the lord talks about “not living according to the law” he wasn’t talking about not obeying him as it says later in both Romans and the last couple chapters of Galatians. Again another whole topic on its own… “what is the law that condemns”. Still, it has merit as a salvation issue. That the law no longer condemns the believer doesn't negate the command to obey it.
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Yes.. he won’t lose 1 that he has chosen, they accepted the gift, redeemed and changed… what about all the people who are not changed, live their same old life, say they believe in Jesus (and really mean it), yet continue to live a carnal wicked life, but think they are going to heaven??? “lord, lord I cast out demons and prophesied in your name and the lord will say “get from my sight one who practices lawlessness”. That’s someone who lives a life in sin… like God didn’t give them a law to obey. These, no doubt, have neglected to read where Scripture tells us to examine ourselves and to make our calling and election sure.
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No, God is clear salvation can never be lost. He, of course, will never take it from the true believer nor is it possible for the true believer to ever finally walk away from God. God is clear that He preserves the one for whom Christ gave His life - nothing and no one can snatch the sheep from the hand of God.
The doctrine of losing one's salvation is a dangerous one because it effectively makes our works grounds for salvation. If we believe that by God's grace we are saved but because we are weak in ourselves and depart from the law of God, we stand guilty before God, then effectively we are declaring that a condition of our salvation is that we do good works. IOW, we think we are saved by God's grace in some sense, but in actuality, we attempt to gain our salvation by living some kind of a holy life.
Remember that in James 2:10 God declares that if we have broken one of the smallest points of the law, we are guilty of the whole law of God. IOW, if we think we can be saved by doing good works, we have elected to follow a salvation plan whereby we have to be absolutely perfect before Him. But, praise God that our salvation is of grace. The works that we do result from God's grace in our lives. I can lead you to tons of websites of “ex-christians” that really don’t want to have anything to do with God anymore, onces apparently who were practicing Christians, born again apparently and the whole nine yards… No, these people would be one significant yard short of the "whole nine yards". Scripture makes no secret that there are different types of faith - "faith" that is not saving faith. And, Christ is clear the church consists of tares and wheat. The tares so resemble the wheat it is difficult to tell them apart.
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Now infact some have committed suicide and some believe in other religions now. You telling me that they are still saved even though they are worshiping other Gods? What have I said that makes you think I'm telling you this?
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I don’t believe someone who is fully for God and with God 100% like the bible says, they cannot turn away.. the thought of it would be heart wrenching.. everyone else… were the truly saved to begin with?
God makes no secret of the fact that He is the "author and finisher" of our faith and will preserve His children from ever totally apostatizing. The main issue has always been, imo, of whether one is a truly saved individual to begin with.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 4:39:57 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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ORIGINAL: discipleforlife
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We must have the faith to accept the God’s grace which he has shown us before we were even born.
Where do you get God has "shown us[faith] before we were even born" in Eph 2:7-10? We didn't exist before we were born; although, it is true the names of all the elect were written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world. But this doesn't have anything to do with us having been shown faith before we were born. That is indeed a very odd view. For clarity's sake, it should be read: We must have the faith to accept God's grace (present tense)... a grace which he has shown us before we were born (past tense). Better? Not particularly. Saving faith is grace given by God. It is a grace which God has ordained or predestinated would follow as the evidence of salvation in our lives. Believers were ordained unto good works as we become new creatures in Christ because we were chosen from the foundation of the world.
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That's not completely true. Many belief that because they once exhibited "faith" in Christ, they are eternally secure. And, yes, this once upon a time faith does not require repentence/turning from sin.
And what a sad moment for them will it be when they appear before the Throne to answer for their life of sin as a supposed "Christian", huh? That's why I don't think you can lay the blame at the feet of the eternal security doctrine. More properly the blame is their salvation doctrines.
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And then, there are others who believe God when He tells us we can never lose our salvation because the Lord Jesus Christ is the "author and finisher" of our faith. And we believe God when He tells us "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
And when they discover that it was not God's will, nor his good pleasure, for them to live a life of continued sin after claiming themselves as heirs in his Kingdom... I'm thinking eternal damnation is what they will inherit. What are you saying?....those in whom God works to will and do of His good pleasure will live a life of continued sin?
Post #3722 doesn't answer the question of who it is that claims a believer can live a life of continued sin. Presumably you're speaking about a lifestyle of sin and rebellion to God since we will, in fact, sin so long as we are in our mortal bodies. I just see you expounding, incorrectly I might add, on faith.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 2:53:42 PM
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d4nnyb0y02
Posts: 318
Joined: 9/24/2008
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ORIGINAL: dyluck
Gal 5:13-26
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
Life by the Spirit
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
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Galatians 6:7-9
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
We will reap what we sow, it's true. If I chop off my arm in anger, though the Lord has forvien my sin and given me a place with Him eternally, that doesn't mean my arm will grow back. I will live the rest of my life with the consequences of my sin. Every time we sin, we harm ourselves in this way. Some are worse than others.
If we sow things in the flesh we will reap the consequences. If we sow in the spirit we will reap the consequences. Be not decieved. Just because we are saved does not prevent the consequences we will reap if we sow to the flesh. Cut your arm off if you choose, but be wanred, your salvation, which is a gift, will not prevent the consequences you will reap for doing so. Brother, we don't earn our salvation, as I'm sure you've said you believe. We are saved by grace, through faith; not of works lest any man boast... but if we sin, we will reap the consequences of sowing in the flesh. If you like to suffer, fine, go ahead and sin. Our salvation is not a matter of works, or sin... it is God's forgiveness to us through Christ, and it is a gift of God, by Christ's work ALONE---ALONE---ALONE. It is His Work ALONE, period, end of story.
We must understand the salvation of God that is in Christ. It is grace alone, by His Work not ours. It is 100% secure with out our works (good or bad), or it is no Gospel at all. Want to sin? Go ahead, wreck your life... and see you in heaven. Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
< Message edited by d4nnyb0y02 -- 10/8/2008 3:04:08 PM >
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OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 5:18:06 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: d4nnyb0y02
We will reap what we sow, it's true. If I chop off my arm in anger, though the Lord has forvien my sin and given me a place with Him eternally, that doesn't mean my arm will grow back. I will live the rest of my life with the consequences of my sin. Every time we sin, we harm ourselves in this way. Some are worse than others.
If we sow things in the flesh we will reap the consequences. If we sow in the spirit we will reap the consequences. Be not decieved. Just because we are saved does not prevent the consequences we will reap if we sow to the flesh. Cut your arm off if you choose, but be wanred, your salvation, which is a gift, will not prevent the consequences you will reap for doing so. Brother, we don't earn our salvation, as I'm sure you've said you believe. We are saved by grace, through faith; not of works lest any man boast... but if we sin, we will reap the consequences of sowing in the flesh. If you like to suffer, fine, go ahead and sin. Our salvation is not a matter of works, or sin... it is God's forgiveness to us through Christ, and it is a gift of God, by Christ's work ALONE---ALONE---ALONE. It is His Work ALONE, period, end of story.
We must understand the salvation of God that is in Christ. It is grace alone, by His Work not ours. It is 100% secure with out our works (good or bad), or it is no Gospel at all. Want to sin? Go ahead, wreck your life... and see you in heaven. Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
I just wanted to point out in no way did I say that this is not from Christ alone! I agree with you all the way that this is the lord's doing 100% and in no way do I merit myself to God nor can I reconcile onto God through my own deeds... that is what grace is "unmerited favor". However... that doesn't negate that I can sinful myself to distruction. To take his gift, shove it back in his face, trample on his grace as I willfully sin. To accept the gift of salvation is to BE a child of Gd.... it comes along with it, faith, repentance, confession, belief... all action words. Accepting a gift requires an action and depending on that action will depend on the reaction or concequence of that action. | | |
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