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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 9:15:18 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
One cannot lose what they never had, drmark. So you are saying, rwe, that "having once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, or tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age" has nothing to do with being saved as a Christian. Sorry, rwe, but you'll have to come up with a better interpretation of Hebr 6:4-6 than that!
In addition, the Greek word for "tasted" in Heb 6 is exactly the same as found in Heb 2:9 which says that Christ "tasted death for everyone". So, Heb 4 must be describing believers.
Seems that Heb 6 gives trouble to those who believe in Lordship salvation, as well as those who believe in conditional security.
1 Tim 4:1-6 says, "But the Spirit explictly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstatining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who beleive and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the world of God and prayer. In pointing out these things to the brethren, you wil be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constatnly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following."
From this, seems clear to me that believers will fall away from the faith. So, apostatizing can and does occur.
I just don't think God lets go of us. I would have to see clear Scripture state that our salvation can be lost, or that the Spirit's seal can be broken, or that our "new birth" can die before I could accept conditional security.
And I do find Scriptures that clearly state that no one can snatch believers out of God's hand, and that nothing can separate us from God's love.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 9:17:42 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
To answer your questions regarding Heb, those passages deal with discipline for the apostatizing believer, imho. So where does the "apostasizing believer" (isn't that an oxymoron) spend eternity?
The same place where all believers spend eternity, with God. When God gives eternal life to a believer, it is eternal.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 11:18:23 AM
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drmark
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quote:
The same place where all believers spend eternity, with God. When God gives eternal life to a believer, it is eternal. So this is a form of universal salvation. I may have to retract my previous compliment, FG. 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 1:06:51 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The same place where all believers spend eternity, with God. When God gives eternal life to a believer, it is eternal. So this is a form of universal salvation. I may have to retract my previous compliment, FG.
I don't understant why you view this as a form of universal salvation. Why? Just because the child rebels against their parent doesn't sever the DNA between child and parent, not the relationship. iow, regardless of how you or your mother or father act or think, you will always be their child.
Yes, we read in the paper of children "divorcing" their parents on occasion. But that is nothing more than human stupidity, and means nothing other than revealing the attitudes of idiots.
Bottom line; there is nothing you can do to change your sonship, new birth and heirship you received when you believed. Your believing didn't "cause" it, and no subsequent action after you believed changes that relationship.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 1:16:03 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Your believing didn't "cause" it, and no subsequent action after you believed changes that relationship. Not even apostasy. So it's not really apostasy at all! Interesting (mis)interpretation.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 1:43:54 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Your believing didn't "cause" it, and no subsequent action after you believed changes that relationship. Not even apostasy. So it's not really apostasy at all! Interesting (mis)interpretation.
I'm not following you here. You seem to agree that "not even apostasy" can change our relationship with God, then you conclude it really isn't apostasy. How so?
My dictionary defines apostasy: an abandoning of what one believed in, as a faith, political party, principles, etc.
So, when a person believes the promise of the gospel, God saves him.
If that person later on becomes disillusioned or whatever, and decides that God doesn't exist, how would God "undo" all that He did?
Can a parent "undo" their children?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 2:19:46 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I'm not following you here. I can see that.
quote:
You seem to agree that "not even apostasy" can change our relationship with God, then you conclude it really isn't apostasy. How so? I do not recall ever making that assertion. Relationship is two-way so how can a "disbeliever" have one with God? If there is still a saving relationship, there can be no apostasy. If there is apostasy, there can be no saving relationship. The two conditions are mutually exclusive!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 2:34:46 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I'm not following you here. I can see that.
quote:
You seem to agree that "not even apostasy" can change our relationship with God, then you conclude it really isn't apostasy. How so? I do not recall ever making that assertion. Relationship is two-way so how can a "disbeliever" have one with God? If there is still a saving relationship, there can be no apostasy. If there is apostasy, there can be no saving relationship. The two conditions are mutually exclusive!
When I speak of relationship, I do so in the context of parent and child. Do you admit that a child can be so completely disobedient and rebellious against their parent that there is no social relationship? Yet, does that lack of social relationship (or fellowship) in any way affect their genetic relationship? No.
The same is also true of spouses. There can be such rebellion between the two, that there is no fellowship, yet, they can remain married, or continue in their "married relationship".
Seems to me that you are only seeing the "interpersonal aspects of relationship", (fellowship) yet what I'm emphasizing is the genetics of the relationship, such as parent to child.
Regardless of what happens between parent and child, that relationship continues. Do you disagree?
iow, is there anything a child can do that actually ends the fact that they are the child of their parent? No. That's my point.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 5:45:37 PM
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drmark
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quote:
iow, is there anything a child can do that actually ends the fact that they are the child of their parent? No. That's my point. Okay, it would be a better point if soteriology could be reduced to genetics or legal theory, but that's not my doctrinal understanding of sin and salvation. I appreciate your perspective, FG, thanks for the discussion.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 5:54:11 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
iow, is there anything a child can do that actually ends the fact that they are the child of their parent? No. That's my point. Okay, it would be a better point if soteriology could be reduced to genetics or legal theory, but that's not my doctrinal understanding of sin and salvation. I appreciate your perspective, FG, thanks for the discussion.
Not to argue, or anything like that, but how do you understand the new birth and our becoming sons? Thanks.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 7:09:37 PM
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drmark
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Well, the doctrinal beliefs of my denomination state pretty much my understanding of salvation and even come with supporting Scripture references. Here is the relevant exerpt:
quote:
9. We believe that justification is the gracious and judicial act of God by which He grants full pardon of all guilt and complete release from the penalty of sins committed, and acceptance as righteous, to all who believe on Jesus Christ and receive Him as Lord and Savior.
10. We believe that regeneration, or the new birth, is that gracious work of God whereby the moral nature of the repentant believer is spiritually quickened and given a distinctively spiritual life, capable of faith, love, and obedience.
11. We believe that adoption is that gracious act of God by which the justified and regenerated believer is constituted a son of God.
12. We believe that justification, regeneration, and adoption are simultaneous in the experience of seekers after God and are obtained upon the condition of faith, preceded by repentance; and that to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.
(Luke 18:14; John 1:12-13; 3:3-8; 5:24; Acts 13:39; Romans 1:17; 3:21-26, 28; 4:5-9, 17-25; 5:1, 16-19; 6:4; 7:6; 8:1, 15-17; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17-21; Galatians 2:16-21; 3:1-14, 26; 4:4-7; Ephesians 1:6-7; 2:1, 4-5; Philippians 3:3-9; Colossians 2:13; Titus 3:4-7; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 1:9; 3:1-2, 9; 4:7; 5:1, 9-13, 18)
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 8:51:48 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Well, the doctrinal beliefs of my denomination state pretty much my understanding of salvation and even come with supporting Scripture references. Here is the relevant exerpt:
quote:
9. We believe that justification is the gracious and judicial act of God by which He grants full pardon of all guilt and complete release from the penalty of sins committed, and acceptance as righteous, to all who believe on Jesus Christ and receive Him as Lord and Savior.
10. We believe that regeneration, or the new birth, is that gracious work of God whereby the moral nature of the repentant believer is spiritually quickened and given a distinctively spiritual life, capable of faith, love, and obedience.
11. We believe that adoption is that gracious act of God by which the justified and regenerated believer is constituted a son of God.
12. We believe that justification, regeneration, and adoption are simultaneous in the experience of seekers after God and are obtained upon the condition of faith, preceded by repentance; and that to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.
(Luke 18:14; John 1:12-13; 3:3-8; 5:24; Acts 13:39; Romans 1:17; 3:21-26, 28; 4:5-9, 17-25; 5:1, 16-19; 6:4; 7:6; 8:1, 15-17; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17-21; Galatians 2:16-21; 3:1-14, 26; 4:4-7; Ephesians 1:6-7; 2:1, 4-5; Philippians 3:3-9; Colossians 2:13; Titus 3:4-7; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 1:9; 3:1-2, 9; 4:7; 5:1, 9-13, 18)
OK, thanks. Relative to #10, if salvation can be lost, how does God reverse the spiritual quickening, with support?
Also, relative to #11, if salvation can be lost, how does God "un-constitute" a son of God, with support?
Thanks.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 9:11:13 PM
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rwe2156
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
So you are saying, rwe, that "having once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift,
shared in the Holy Spirit, or tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers
of the coming age" has nothing to do with being saved as a Christian. Sorry, rwe,
but you'll have to come up with a better interpretation of Hebr 6:4-6 than that!
My presupposition is that whatever God does, no man can undo.
The very essence of salvation is a supernatural work of God, and we are to believe
now man is the determiner of his own eternity and his own eternal security?
You know, I struggled with Heb 6 and 10 and others like Heb 3:14 for months,
studying this commentary and that commentary, reading this scholar debate and that
scholarly analysi.
I admit the light I walk in on this is impacted by personal experience.
I would simply ask "How can a true believer throw it all away?:
Its God's work, afterall, isn't it?
And WHY would a true believer throw it all away? He's a child of God!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 9:14:46 AM
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drmark
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quote:
OK, thanks. Relative to #10, if salvation can be lost, how does God reverse the spiritual quickening, with support?
Also, relative to #11, if salvation can be lost, how does God "un-constitute" a son of God, with support? FreeGrace, I appreciate your interests in my views and the respect you appear to show them. I'm actually on this thread because another thread was thought to be overlapping with this one and merged. I really don't feel led to "debate" this issue here. If you are truly interested in pursuing further study on the Scriptural support for the Arminian perspective on preserverance of the saints, I would recommend this website which has a multi-part analysis of the issue:
Preserverance of the Saints
quote:
And WHY would a true believer throw it all away? He's a child of God! Indeed, rwe, I cannot imagine why. But I know some have and will and I pray fervently that I will never turn my back on His Grace!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 11:39:17 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
OK, thanks. Relative to #10, if salvation can be lost, how does God reverse the spiritual quickening, with support?
Also, relative to #11, if salvation can be lost, how does God "un-constitute" a son of God, with support? FreeGrace, I appreciate your interests in my views and the respect you appear to show them. I'm actually on this thread because another thread was thought to be overlapping with this one and merged. I really don't feel led to "debate" this issue here. If you are truly interested in pursuing further study on the Scriptural support for the Arminian perspective on preserverance of the saints, I would recommend this website which has a multi-part analysis of the issue:
Preserverance of the Saints
drmark, I wasn't looking to debate, just curious how your theology answers my questions. But, thanks for the link. I'll see if it responds to my questions.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/27/2008 8:35:55 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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We are told in the Bible to be sinless. We are told also if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. We are told to be holy as Jesus is holy.
Someone is going to say, yes but do you sin? I wondered how to answer. However, the answer can be this -
Ye shall know them by their fruit. When you see an apple tree that is healthy, it may have some bad apples on it (sin) but you know by looking at it generally its a good tree.
So, if your lifestyle in general is holy, (not sinless perfection) then you have what the Bible calls holiness. When it says in the Bible "you ought to walk as He walked) the word "walk" means "walk around" like "lifestyle".
So be encouraged, you dont have to be perfect, but your life should reflect a general lifestyle of walking in holiness serving the Lord. If you love the Lord, you will not make an excuse to sin, but you will look to please the Lord. YOu wont try to find the loopholes to see what you can get away with, how far you can test the mercy and grace of God, but you will seek the Lord and to please God.
_____________________________
Just give us peace, Lord.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/27/2008 9:05:11 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
We are told in the Bible to be sinless. We are told also if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. We are told to be holy as Jesus is holy.
To be accurate, we are told to stop sinning. And, yes we do have an advocate. When we sin, we must confess them.
quote:
Someone is going to say, yes but do you sin? I wondered how to answer.
The only correct answer is, "yes".
quote:
However, the answer can be this -
Ye shall know them by their fruit. When you see an apple tree that is healthy, it may have some bad apples on it (sin) but you know by looking at it generally its a good tree.
This doesn't answer the question of "do you sin?"
quote:
So, if your lifestyle in general is holy, (not sinless perfection) then you have what the Bible calls holiness. When it says in the Bible "you ought to walk as He walked) the word "walk" means "walk around" like "lifestyle".
If lifestyle is the issue for being "holy", that means Mormons, etc are being "holy" due to their lifestyles. Not so. Believers are only holy when they are filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18) and are walking by His means (Gal 5:16).
Believers are definitely not being holy when they are grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/28/2008 4:39:01 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Absolutely. They occur as a result of believing. Eph 1:4 says "just as He chose us IN HIM...(and) predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ". Well, it makes no sense to me to separate salvation into distincts steps. That strongly suggests that someone could be regenerated before they are adopted or justified after they are saved. No, I will stick with the doctrine of my Holiness denomination as exerpted here:
quote:
We believe that justification, regeneration, and adoption are simultaneous in the experience of seekers after God and are obtained upon the condition of faith, preceded by repentance; and that to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.
Actually, I believe they occur simultaneously. I just happen to think that the "catalyst" is believing, as opposed to calvinism, which claims that God must regenerate the person in order for them to be able to believe.
The question remains, however. If our salvation can be lost, what happens to our new birth, the fact of regeneration, the sealing of the Holy Spirit, our adoption as sons, and everything else that is associated with our eternal life.
Which brings up a very interesting question. Jesus was clear that one has eternal life when they believe. So, if salvation can be lost, how can one lose what is called eternal life?
Doesn't seem very "eternal", does it.
Your idea here actually supports a conditional salvation. Adam lost his eternal life when he disobeyed. When you insist that you must believe first before you are given eternal life, you are faced with a similar situation. So, when one loses their faith, they would lose their eternal life just as Adam lost his.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/28/2008 3:26:50 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Actually, I believe they occur simultaneously. I just happen to think that the "catalyst" is believing, as opposed to calvinism, which claims that God must regenerate the person in order for them to be able to believe.
The question remains, however. If our salvation can be lost, what happens to our new birth, the fact of regeneration, the sealing of the Holy Spirit, our adoption as sons, and everything else that is associated with our eternal life.
Which brings up a very interesting question. Jesus was clear that one has eternal life when they believe. So, if salvation can be lost, how can one lose what is called eternal life?
Doesn't seem very "eternal", does it.
Your idea here actually supports a conditional salvation.
And your point is...? As I've frequently noted, calvinism minimizes the role of believing in one's salvation. Scripture is full of clear statements that our salvation is based on faith. That most certainly IS conditional. 2 Tim 3:15, John 3:15, Acts 10:43.
What isn't conditional is election. iow, God unconditionally chooses or elects every believer to be adopted as mature sons, and to be holy and blameless.
quote:
Adam lost his eternal life when he disobeyed. When you insist that you must believe first before you are given eternal life, you are faced with a similar situation. So, when one loses their faith, they would lose their eternal life just as Adam lost his.
Except you fail to consider what ALL comes with our salvation and eternal life. Only if you consider our salvation to be something concrete, like a rock, or some other "possession" can you even entertain the idea of losing it.
But, our salvation is much much more than that. If you know anything about the doctrine of positional truth, we have many things because we are positionally IN Christ, one of which is our election (Eph 1:4).
For example, every believer is regenerated. That being so, where does Scripture tell us that God "reverses" that? Nowhere.
Or, our adoption as sons. Where does Scripture tell us that God "de-adopts" His children. That simply cannot be done; either humanly, or divinely. If it could, Scripture would be quite clear on that.
Every believer is "sealed by the Holy Spirit", per Eph 1:13: "And you also were included IN Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvaiton. Having believed, you were marked IN Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inhereitance until the redemption of those who are God's possesison - to the praise of His glory."
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/29/2008 9:50:22 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
We are told in the Bible to be sinless. We are told also if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. We are told to be holy as Jesus is holy.
To be accurate, we are told to stop sinning. And, yes we do have an advocate. When we sin, we must confess them.
quote:
Someone is going to say, yes but do you sin? I wondered how to answer.
The only correct answer is, "yes".
quote:
However, the answer can be this -
Ye shall know them by their fruit. When you see an apple tree that is healthy, it may have some bad apples on it (sin) but you know by looking at it generally its a good tree.
This doesn't answer the question of "do you sin?"
quote:
So, if your lifestyle in general is holy, (not sinless perfection) then you have what the Bible calls holiness. When it says in the Bible "you ought to walk as He walked) the word "walk" means "walk around" like "lifestyle".
If lifestyle is the issue for being "holy", that means Mormons, etc are being "holy" due to their lifestyles. Not so. Believers are only holy when they are filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18) and are walking by His means (Gal 5:16).
Believers are definitely not being holy when they are grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).
Of course I am speaking of the Christian who are following Christ. I'm not talking about other religions and their "good works" based religion.
My point is that we are told to "Walk" with the Lord - "walk" meaning pedipateo - walking around, a lifestyle, it does not mean sinless perfection, but a lifestyle that follows Jesus and is conformed into his image, by the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
this answers the question when we say we must be holy. Someone will say "yeah but do you sin?" Well thats the answer I wish to give them.
_____________________________
Just give us peace, Lord.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/29/2008 4:20:14 PM
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d4nnyb0y02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
Here's one for you all!
Fall or Not
There were many times beginning shortly into that link that my answer was not an option. Looks like the person who created that has not spent time before the Lord and His Word considering what His Spirit has to say.
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/29/2008 4:32:24 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Here's one for you all!
Fall or Not
I found the phrasing of this "study" to be incredibly belittling. It takes one reading of the text and ignores any other possibility. I also notice that none of the verses were given in context their greater context - they were plucked out of passages.
Furthermore, the points brought up from other passages were ignored. If one merely wishes to proof-text, they can show pretty much anything in Scripture. ...Until someone brings up proof texts for the opposite side. As is often said, one view's proof texts is another view's problem texts.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 9/29/2008 4:43:31 PM
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d4nnyb0y02
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http://www.bible.ca/fall-gal54.htm
Can we fall from grace? The questioner misinterprets that "fall from grace" means that we can lose our salvation.
However, when agree that we can fall from grace (in the actual application of the term which has nothing to do with losing salvation) I am taken to the next page here: http://www.bible.ca/fall-prune.htm
I am then asked about John 15:5-6: "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Why did Jesus say we might be thrown away and cast into the hell?
We will be cast in the fire of Hell if we do not abide in Jesus
Thrown away and cast into the fire does not mean Hell
Where is the option for Jesus is not even speaking of those who have at any timed trusted Him for salvation??? There are a couple options--Yes, Jesus is not speaking of hell, but rather what will happen as we are purged of opertunity to bear fruit in this world. Or, it is referring to hell but isn't referring to those who have at any time believed. Jesus says that if anyone does not abide in Him, they are gathered and cast into fire. Jesus makes no reference to them ever having been attached to him in the first place.
It gets pretty confusing to explain from there, but it's hard to reason w/ an HTML screen that is giving you pre-selected responses as answers. Bottom line, the full answers I would give are not options.
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OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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