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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 1:30:35 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 751
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: janaray1
Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened THROUGH the deceitfulness of SIN. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end.
Only as we persevere in our union with Christ can we be assured of our salvation. This is why Paul admonishes us to examine and prove ourselves to see if we are in the faith.
It's true God designed perfectly serious warnings in Scripture. They function as warnings to direct our steps in the path he has ordained for us (Eph 2:8-10) - not to illustrate how the truly regenerate might lose their salvation.
Welcome, hope you enjoy your stay here!
The warning was not the the unregenerate. The warning was to the "Brethren" and spoke of holding the "beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end". This is clearly a warning to believers to persevere in the faith. Also in Chapter 10 of Hebrews the writer wrote of someone who was sanctified by the blood of the covenant suffering a worse punishment than those who died without mercy under the law of Moses.
Hebrews 10:19-39
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. 34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. 35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2008 3:38:30 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3894
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wacotton
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: janaray1
Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened THROUGH the deceitfulness of SIN. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end.
Only as we persevere in our union with Christ can we be assured of our salvation. This is why Paul admonishes us to examine and prove ourselves to see if we are in the faith.
It's true God designed perfectly serious warnings in Scripture. They function as warnings to direct our steps in the path he has ordained for us (Eph 2:8-10) - not to illustrate how the truly regenerate might lose their salvation.
Welcome, hope you enjoy your stay here!
The warning was not the the unregenerate. The warning was to the "Brethren" and spoke of holding the "beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end". This is clearly a warning to believers to persevere in the faith. Yes, and that is clearly what I said. I didn't say the warning was for the unregenerate - whatever gave you that idea?
I said, and I underlined it above, that: "They function as warnings to direct our steps in the path he has ordained for us (Eph 2:8-10) - not to illustrate how the truly regenerate might lose their salvation."
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2008 5:46:34 AM
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Tychicus
Posts: 103
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
(Re John 10): Well, now it's the word "own". Although the passage never addresses the topic of "rebellious sheep", you seem to have this desperate need to read it in. Well, the last time I checked, the word "own" does not mean "cannot ever rebel at any time in the future".
The sheep not knowing, not following and fleeing from the stranger does speak to rebellion. Is that not what rebellion is all about?...following a false gospel or no gospel at all?...going your own way?
Hi kelman,
Well, I still don't see anything saying the sheep "cannot ever rebel at any time in the future".
The point of this passage is that Jesus is a more reliable and trustworthy Shepherd than the Jewish religious leaders. He is the Good Shepherd, and they are the Bad Shepherds, as described in Ezekiel 34. He gets his authority from God his Father, whereas they claimed he got his authority from the devil (John 10:20). This is all part of a larger story, starting actually in John 5, and leading up to John 10:39, where the Jews tried to arrest him and stone him.
This words in John 10:3-5 are describing how sheep follow a trustworthy Shepherd. The point of this is to describe how Good of a Shepherd Jesus is.
In 10:6 we see that this is a "figure of speech" that they didn't understand well, and so Jesus gives further explanation in 10:7-18. This is all about the character of the "good shepherd" versus the "thief" or the "hired hand". It is not about the character or faithfulness of the sheep.
If this passage were meant to teach Eternal Security, we would expect 10:7-18 to give some further explanation on that topic. But there is nothing there. All you have is a few phrases like "they will not follow a stranger" back in 10:3-5, and you are trying to make a Big Proof for Eternal Security out of that.
quote:
If a sheep is Christ's "own", then He knows them in a particular way, a way in which He does not know the goat. This implies an intimate relationship between the sheep and the Shepherd. This alone doesn't prove total rebellion is not possible; but, when all the other verses are included, yes, then it does prove total apostasy is not possible for a sheep.
Well, good, here you recognize that "an intimate relationship" does not prove that rebellion is impossible. You agree that you must bring in "all the other verses" to make your point. You are acknowledging that John 10 doesn't exactly teach Eternal Security all by itself.
And "the other verses" are Heb 6:13-20; John 11:25,26; Phil 1:6; Rom 8:35-39. Of course there are more than that, but these must be among your strongest, since you brougt them up. Now, which one of these say that a follower of Jesus will never rebel at some later time?
Heb 6:13-20: I admit this one has me a bit confused. I see the word "secure" in 6:19, so I figure you must think this proves Eternal Security somehow. I see you also wrote above, in post #3545 "we see that God takes a special oath in Heb 6:13-20 upon His own perfect faithfulness that His promise of eternal life for the true believer shall never fail." Well, sure, God's promise will never fail, but a believer might fail. You use the term "true believer"; I suppose this means the kind of believer whose faith is guaranteed never to fail. Well, Heb 6 does not talk about "true believers" versus "regular believers", so I don't see how this supports your point. What we do see in 6:15 is: "Abraham, having patiently waited, obtained the promise." So the security here comes "after patiently waiting", not when he first believed.
John 11:25,26: "whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die". So, does this mean that you agree with FreeGrace that if you believe for one second you "shall never die"; you have Eternal Security locked up then and there? Or does it mean that you have to continue to believe (as the Greek progressive implies)? And if it means you have to continue to believe, then how does it prove Eternal Security?
Phil 1:6. This is talking about God's work in the Philippian church; note that use of "partnership in the gospel" (1:5). There is no indication here at all Paul is talking about individual salvation.
Rom 8:35-39: "Who can separate us from the love of Christ?" "Shall trouble or hardship, . . ." These are all external forces. There is nothing here about "you can't rebel from Christ." That is a totally separate question. If you rebel and turn away from Christ then you no longer belong to the "us" who follow Christ.
Well, those are your examples. And none of them say anything like "it is impossible for a believer to later on rebel and turn away from Christ". Nothing in these passages say that. And what is more, these are just isloated proof texts. The surrounding context is not at all about the topic of individual salvation, or what might happen to a believer who rebels.
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quote:
There is plenty you can learn from this parable. But one thing you don't learn is that God causes people to repent. Or that the reason people repent is because they are one of God's "elect" or "sheep", and therefore are destined to repent in the end.
True, we don’t learn from this parable that God gives repentance, we learn it from other passages. What’s interesting, though, is the NAS actually translate 2Tim 2:25 as “coming to their senses” with regard to repentance while also explaining that it is God who gives repentance.
This is an interesting passage in that we see that God "may perhaps grant them repentance" after "the Lord's servant" corrects the person with gentleness. One may gather from this that the "granting of repentance" is conditional on how they respond to the correction. It sure doesn't sound unconditional when described like this.
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quote:
It may be true that the vessel "cannot mar or unmar itself". However the vessel (Israel) can choose to do good or evil. And the potter (God) will shape the vessel accordingly, as he wishes. Jer 18:7-10 clearly says it will be based on what they do. And God's message to them is "Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds." (18:11).
Sure, we see God doing exactly this in Nineveh. I don't seeing that the potter molds a vessel based upon the actions of the vessel. That really wouldn't make much sense. Only until the vessel is molded can it act.
Whether it "makes sense" to you or not, this is what Jer 18 says. The potter can reshape a pot whenever he feels like, based on whatever reasons he wishes; for example he can reshape it for the reason described in Jer 18:5-11.
quote:
quote:
So, yes, God will choose to do what he wishes, based on his Sovereign Will. Suppose God decides to "mar" or "unmar" a vessel, not based on some decree before the foundation of time, but because he sees how the vessel behaves, as we see in Jer 18:7-10. Suppose God wants to make his decisions that way. Can we tell God that He can't do this?
We can't tell God; but, He can tell us - and He has. He tells us He is the potter and He does the molding of the vessel with the vessel having no say how he is to be molded. That's also the point Paul is making in Rom 9.
No, it does not say "with the vessel having no say". And that is not the point in Rom 9.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2008 12:48:16 PM
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loveineffable
Posts: 90
Joined: 5/23/2008
Status: offline
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?'s for all here.
Since Jesus said that no one can snatch them out of his hand. And he is true to his word
Would that not include the one that believes in him, and he knows who believes and who is faking their belief in him Right?
Now if I consider not believing in him, then have I ever really believd in him?
It is hard for me to understand this conversation about eternal security, when I know I believe in him (Jesus Christ) my eternal savior. There is no doubt about my belief in him.
And he said no one, can snatch me out of his hand.
Well am I not a part of no one in the statement that he made?
To me when one turns to believe in Christ and sees his eternal gift of life, as even King David did. Thus stating entering his courts with thankgiving and praise.
How can one even fathom changing his/her mind? The only conclusion I can see is they never believed to begin with, it only appeared that they believed. Which will be the case of many at the judgement. their belief will be revealed.
Eternal security is real to the one that believes, and the one that believes will stay steadfast in Christ
The ones with doubt will waver in their belief, yet God is just and leads all to water. Only some just gargle and taste. While the ones that have made up their minds and have drank are secure.
The by product I see from belief is love for God and my neighbor, as my response from the love poured out from God to me through belief in him.
So who, what, can seperate me, you or anyone else that believes. Sice I belief, why would I ever change back to unbelief?
Would it be because I did not get what I want? Then I conclude I never believed. Those that wish to save their lives shall lose it. Those that lose their lives for his sake shall save it. Through belief one gives up his life
Ineffable love
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 8:02:54 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2375
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: loveineffable
Now if I consider not believing in him, then have I ever really believed in him?
Do you think you are believing in him when you sin?
I don't think we are in a continual state of belief 24/7, but that being said,
I don't think a true believer can completely fall away and deny his faith.
Peter showed us this, but Peter's heart was in a continually repentant state.
He "wept bitterly" after denying Christ - proof of a repentant heart.
"He knows his sheep and his sheep know him" goes hand in hand with John 6:44.
A true believe can doubt his faith.
quote:
It is hard for me to understand this conversation about eternal security,
when I know I believe in him (Jesus Christ) my eternal savior. There is no doubt
about my belief in him. And how do you know you believe in Him?
What do you base your confidence on?
I agree that only true believers are eternally secure in Christ -
"If Saved, Always Saved" if you will.
Unfortunately and tragically, many have a false confidence - a confidence based on
what some preacher told them or what their mother told them or a VBS worker,
or church tradition or an altar call or baptism or church membership - and not the Bible.
We must be born again or we are not saved. Its just that simple. But many do
not like it because it is something they cannot do - God must do it.
So, our confidence should come from the evidence of a new life, NOT something our
mind tells us and NOT from simply "believing" the promise of God.
quote:
How can one even fathom changing his/her mind?
The only conclusion I can see is they never believed to begin with,
it only appeared that they believed.
I agree. We cannot "unborn" ourselves, now, can we?
Sure, there may be ups and downs and we may stray from the path, but
one of the characteristics of a true believer's life is continual repentance -
continual transformation. We are predestined to it when we are saved, agree?
I'm sure we can think of many people who have made a good profession of
faith (which never saved one soul, BTW) but who afterwards show no evidence
of regeneration and the lifestyle change that inevitably occurs.
Tragically, many pastors will actually assure one like this - they have temporarily
"backslidden" or "fallen away" and this is the devil trying to make them doubt
their faith.
When in fact, this person may not know Him and should be counseled as to
why there is no evidence of being born again in their life and that they
should examine themselves.
Bottom line: Man is not in charge of his salvation, neither initially, temporally, nor finally.
He cannot throw away what he never had........
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 2:45:08 PM
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loveineffable
Posts: 90
Joined: 5/23/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: loveineffable
Now if I consider not believing in him, then have I ever really believed in him?
Do you think you are believing in him when you sin?
I don't think we are in a continual state of belief 24/7, but that being said,
I don't think a true believer can completely fall away and deny his faith.
Peter showed us this, but Peter's heart was in a continually repentant state.
He "wept bitterly" after denying Christ - proof of a repentant heart.
"He knows his sheep and his sheep know him" goes hand in hand with John 6:44.
A true believe can doubt his faith.
My faith is in Christ and his finished work. My faith is in God through the Holy Spirit leading and teaching me, having a personal relationship with him. Knowing God will never ever leave me nor forsake me as Paul also claimed and knew as well as knows to this day.
Sorry I disagree about the believer doubting his faith (belief)
Faith is belief to me.
If knowing his sheep and his sheep knowing him go hand in hand. How can their be any doubt?
Are you saying God is not merciful, and goes back on his word? Is God a tyrant? I think not.
The sheep that hear his voice grow in grace and learn to trust and sit on the side lines and watch God perform his grace in and through them.
Watching the chaff being removed from the wheat, that has been besetting them. All from belief in Him (Christ), along with ones continual desire to know God personally.
quote:
[/quotquote:
It is hard for me to understand this conversation about eternal security,
when I know I believe in him (Jesus Christ) my eternal savior. There is no doubt about my belief in him.
And how do you know you believe in Him?
What do you base your confidence on?
I agree that only true believers are eternally secure in Christ -
"If Saved, Always Saved" if you will.
Unfortunately and tragically, many have a false confidence - a confidence based on
what some preacher told them or what their mother told them or a VBS worker,
or church tradition or an altar call or baptism or church membership - and not the Bible.
We must be born again or we are not saved. Its just that simple. But many do
not like it because it is something they cannot do - God must do it.
So, our confidence should come from the evidence of a new life, NOT something our
mind tells us and NOT from simply "believing" the promise of God.
Once saved always saved is a man made term.
I believe justification by Faith. For the just live by faith. Romans 1:17
You are right it comes from an evidence of a new life, between God and me, you or anyone else that believes.
Paul was blasphemied by the holier than thous, and was confident in whom he believed (Christ Jesus, eternal Savior)
Paul, when was Saul had his (taught) belief down, circumcised the 8th day, obeyed the commandments was righteous in them.
Then counted all that a waste and gave that up to win Christ.
Instead of beig focused on the law he got focused on Christ and Christ's love for him, that nothing could seperate him from God's love. For me this is the same as I know, nothing can seperate me from his love, or you or them, or anyone that does not give up seeking him out.
My confidrnce is on God, in spirit and in truth
quote:
quote:
How can one even fathom changing his/her mind?
The only conclusion I can see is they never believed to begin with,
it only appeared that they believed.
I agree. We cannot "unborn" ourselves, now, can we?
Sure, there may be ups and downs and we may stray from the path, but
one of the characteristics of a true believer's life is continual repentance -
continual transformation. We are predestined to it when we are saved, agree?
I'm sure we can think of many people who have made a good profession of
faith (which never saved one soul, BTW) but who afterwards show no evidence
of regeneration and the lifestyle change that inevitably occurs.
Tragically, many pastors will actually assure one like this - they have temporarily
"backslidden" or "fallen away" and this is the devil trying to make them doubt
their faith.
When in fact, this person may not know Him and should be counseled as to
why there is no evidence of being born again in their life and that they
should examine themselves.
Bottom line: Man is not in charge of his salvation, neither initially, temporally, nor finally.
He cannot throw away what he never had........
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
To me continual repentance is doubt that you are saved and dis belief that it was finished at the cross.
For Christ was the last sacrifice, and there is no further forgiveness from God's point of view after the cross. For there is no more blood shed. From God's vantage point he took all sin away at the cross. So that he could in the form of the Holy Ghost come here and live in the believer, teaching him all truth, the truth that sets one free. Yet we are all focused on sin rather than belief. The result of belief, it's byproduct is growth in trusting God (The Holy Ghost) and sin being and been put to death at the cross before any of us were ever born.
We as people continue to try and stop sin, and we can never do this, this is why we are caught up in it.
The jews the first chosen could never ever do it prior to Christ. And if any one besides Christ could ever do it. Then there would have been no need for Christ. So why do we not give up raise our flags and say I give up to you Lord, I can not be perfect. I would like to be. but I can not. Hear Father Christ's, say thank you, now that you have given up trying, raised your flag and have come over to My (Father speaking) camp. I (Father Speaking) will perform now in and through you, come on enter my (Father speaking) rest. For thy did not in the day of provocation, because of their unbelief.
Those that believe are eternally saved and those that believe will grow in grace, and our Father will carry it on until the return of Christ his only perfect Son. For through the cross all sin was taken out of the way, (from Goid's vantage point) So that God could live in us, wooing us to the truth. For God can not live in one that still sins. So he took all sin out of the way so he could live in one that believes, yet sins, teaching that one truth that ends up saying no to sin.
So if God viewed one as a sinner then God could not live in you. So when one does sin, God is not condeming one on it. He is the comfortor, not saying do it again, even though we as people do. No rather he is teaching us sin is not good for us, and please learn to listen and judge: is it good for me or not good for me to continue in this mess, you personally decide, and thus you will see the truth.
This is how I know I am born agin, by the growth God has done, and he gets all the credit
Love ineffable
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 3:29:25 PM
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wacotton
Posts: 751
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: loveineffable
?'s for all here.
Since Jesus said that no one can snatch them out of his hand. And he is true to his word
Would that not include the one that believes in him, and he knows who believes and who is faking their belief in him Right?
Now if I consider not believing in him, then have I ever really believd in him?
It is hard for me to understand this conversation about eternal security, when I know I believe in him (Jesus Christ) my eternal savior. There is no doubt about my belief in him.
And he said no one, can snatch me out of his hand.
Well am I not a part of no one in the statement that he made?
To me when one turns to believe in Christ and sees his eternal gift of life, as even King David did. Thus stating entering his courts with thankgiving and praise.
How can one even fathom changing his/her mind? The only conclusion I can see is they never believed to begin with, it only appeared that they believed. Which will be the case of many at the judgement. their belief will be revealed.
Eternal security is real to the one that believes, and the one that believes will stay steadfast in Christ
The ones with doubt will waver in their belief, yet God is just and leads all to water. Only some just gargle and taste. While the ones that have made up their minds and have drank are secure.
The by product I see from belief is love for God and my neighbor, as my response from the love poured out from God to me through belief in him.
So who, what, can seperate me, you or anyone else that believes. Sice I belief, why would I ever change back to unbelief?
Would it be because I did not get what I want? Then I conclude I never believed. Those that wish to save their lives shall lose it. Those that lose their lives for his sake shall save it. Through belief one gives up his life
Ineffable love
If you look at the passage in John 10 you will see that Jesus said that the ones who could not be plucked out of the father's hand are those who hear His voice and follow Him. He also makes the statement that He knows them which implies intimacy and relationship and not just formal religion. In Luke 8 in the parable of the sower Jesus says there are some who "for a while believe" then fall away.
John 10:26-29
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Luke 8:11-15
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
_____________________________
Bill Cotton
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/2/2008 11:14:51 AM
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loveineffable
Posts: 90
Joined: 5/23/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
If you look at the passage in John 10 you will see that Jesus said that the ones who could not be plucked out of the father's hand are those who hear His voice and follow Himquote:
Thank you for the confirmation
quote:
He also makes the statement that He knows them which implies intimacy and relationship and not just formal religionquote:
Again thank you for the confirmation
quote:
In Luke 8 in the parable of the sower Jesus says there are some who "for a while believe" then fall away.
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. quote:
Last words lest they should believe and be saved, All should believe.
If they believe they will be saved and if one believes, I do not see that changing. I see from unbelief to belief. Yet once one believes, I do not see going back to unbelief. if they did they really never changed their mind to begin with.
And if you use sin as bouncing back and forth. Then no one has a chance to enter the kingdom. That would eliminate the death, burial and ressurection of the Savior, Jesus Christ. Whom took upon himself the sins of the whole world, past, present and future. In order to give the ones that believe a new life of renewing their minds after receiving the adoption as Sons of the most high God, being thus taught by the holy Ghost of promise, to see things from God's vantage point not our own any longer
Ineffable love
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/3/2008 4:11:20 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3894
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tychicus
In 10:6 we see that this is a "figure of speech" that they didn't understand well, and so Jesus gives further explanation in 10:7-18. This is all about the character of the "good shepherd" versus the "thief" or the "hired hand". It is not about the character or faithfulness of the sheep.
I don't disagree that it is about the Shepherd. I never claimed the parable was about the "faithfulness" of the sheep. I did and do claim it is about the intention of the Shepherd to keep His sheep safe.
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If this passage were meant to teach Eternal Security, we would expect 10:7-18 to give some further explanation on that topic. But there is nothing there. All you have is a few phrases like "they will not follow a stranger" back in 10:3-5, and you are trying to make a Big Proof for Eternal Security out of that. Yep, all I have in John 10 is: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
I'd say any reasonable reading of the above would see "a Big Proof for Eternal Security out of that".
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If a sheep is Christ's "own", then He knows them in a particular way, a way in which He does not know the goat. This implies an intimate relationship between the sheep and the Shepherd. This alone doesn't prove total rebellion is not possible; but, when all the other verses are included, yes, then it does prove total apostasy is not possible for a sheep.
Well, good, here you recognize that "an intimate relationship" does not prove that rebellion is impossible. You agree that you must bring in "all the other verses" to make your point. You are acknowledging that John 10 doesn't exactly teach Eternal Security all by itself. Actually, I meant all the other John 10 verses. As I reread what I wrote, it conveys something other than what I really believe. If there is "an intimate relationship" between Christ and the believer, this would mean that a total rebellion/a complete falling away is not possible.
Christ's relationship with His sheep is different from that of the goats - it is is indeed "an intimate relationship" between Him and the believer. We see in Heb 2:11 that those He saves He calls brethren. Because of the work of Christ those He saves become the adopted children of God. This is a very intimate relationship between the believer and God; and because it is all the work of God man cannot "undo" His work.
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Heb 6:13-20: I admit this one has me a bit confused. I see the word "secure" in 6:19, so I figure you must think this proves Eternal Security somehow. Nope, more like "Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:" God's promise to the "heirs of promise" are immutable, iow, if He saves you that salvation has been confirmed by the oath of God.
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John 11:25,26: "whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die". So, does this mean that you agree with FreeGrace that if you believe for one second you "shall never die"; you have Eternal Security locked up then and there? Or does it mean that you have to continue to believe (as the Greek progressive implies)? And if it means you have to continue to believe, then how does it prove Eternal Security?
No, I don't agree with FG on this. Of course, it means an ongoing belief. I don't know what you mean by "if you have to continue to believe"? The verse is speaking about believers and IF you are one, you are saved and have eternal life. Hopefully, there is no disagreement on what the word eternal means.
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Phil 1:6. This is talking about God's work in the Philippian church; note that use of "partnership in the gospel" (1:5). There is no indication here at all Paul is talking about individual salvation.
No, I don't believe it is. Could Paul be "confident" that this church would be around in a hundred years let alone til Christ returns? No, "he which hath begun a good work in you, will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:" refers to the "work of God" done in their hearts. We find this in John 6:29.
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Rom 8:35-39: "Who can separate us from the love of Christ?" "Shall trouble or hardship, . . ." These are all external forces. There is nothing here about "you can't rebel from Christ." That is a totally separate question. If you rebel and turn away from Christ then you no longer belong to the "us" who follow Christ. Wow, you can't get anymore all-encompassing than those verses. In addition to all which Paul had previously included he now says "any other creature" meaning there is NO creature who can separate a believer from the love of God - believers qualify as creatures, don't you think? Paul is making it clear there is nothng in the entire universe that can separate a believer from the love of Christ.
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True, we don’t learn from this parable that God gives repentance, we learn it from other passages. What’s interesting, though, is the NAS actually translate 2Tim 2:25 as “coming to their senses” with regard to repentance while also explaining that it is God who gives repentance. This is an interesting passage in that we see that God "may perhaps grant them repentance" after "the Lord's servant" corrects the person with gentleness. One may gather from this that the "granting of repentance" is conditional on how they respond to the correction. It sure doesn't sound unconditional when described like this.
I agree the way you describe it doesn't; but, then again, I don't agree with your description. It is speaking about preaching the Gospel to the unsaved and that perhaps God might save some of these - grant repentance.
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Sure, we see God doing exactly this in Nineveh. I don't seeing that the potter molds a vessel based upon the actions of the vessel. That really wouldn't make much sense. Only until the vessel is molded can it act. Whether it "makes sense" to you or not, this is what Jer 18 says. The potter can reshape a pot whenever he feels like, based on whatever reasons he wishes; for example he can reshape it for the reason described in Jer 18:5-11. Israel was always rebelling against God just as all mankind does. God is simply saying what He says throughout the OT - obey me and I will bless you - or unmar/reform the clay. But, Israel never does, not for very long anyway. That is why elsewhere(Eze 36:26) we find God saying He will give them a new heart/spirit so that they will obey Him and turn from their sins.
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We can't tell God; but, He can tell us - and He has. He tells us He is the potter and He does the molding of the vessel with the vessel having no say how he is to be molded. That's also the point Paul is making in Rom 9. No, it does not say "with the vessel having no say". And that is not the point in Rom 9. That is very much the point "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/3/2008 4:18:53 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3894
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ORIGINAL: rwe2156
I agree that only true believers are eternally secure in Christ -
"If Saved, Always Saved" if you will.
Unfortunately and tragically, many have a false confidence - a confidence based on
what some preacher told them or what their mother told them or a VBS worker,
or church tradition or an altar call or baptism or church membership - and not the Bible.
That is the more important question - are you saved? I have to agree "if saved, always saved" is the better expression. It puts the onus where it belongs - on salvation.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/3/2008 4:38:06 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3894
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ORIGINAL: loveineffable
Now if I consider not believing in him, then have I ever really believd in him? Believing is not only an intellectual acceptance of the facts of the Gospel. It includes that, of course, but it is more.
If we say we believe, then our actions will confirm that. Our lives will change, our desires will change. We are no longer looking for all that the world can provide. We speak to God through prayer and God speaks to us through His Word; therefore, we will develope a love for Scripture.
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It is hard for me to understand this conversation about eternal security, when I know I believe in him (Jesus Christ) my eternal savior. There is no doubt about my belief in him.
And he said no one, can snatch me out of his hand.
Well am I not a part of no one in the statement that he made? Every believer is a part of God's promise to keep them safe and to never be "snatched from His hand".
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How can one even fathom changing his/her mind? The only conclusion I can see is they never believed to begin with, it only appeared that they believed. Which will be the case of many at the judgement. their belief will be revealed. I agree, that is the only conclusion. If one turns totally from Christ, he never had saving faith.
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Eternal security is real to the one that believes, and the one that believes will stay steadfast in Christ Yes, believers will stay steadfast in Christ; but, not of their own doing can they. God tells us He does the "keeping", He will finish the work He began. That is why we can have "blessed assurance".
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The ones with doubt will waver in their belief, yet God is just and leads all to water. Yes, if it is God's good pleasure, He will lead the doubters to the "living waters".
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2008 4:48:37 AM
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Tychicus
Posts: 103
Joined: 1/29/2006
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In 10:6 we see that this is a "figure of speech" that they didn't understand well, and so Jesus gives further explanation in 10:7-18. This is all about the character of the "good shepherd" versus the "thief" or the "hired hand". It is not about the character or faithfulness of the sheep.
I don't disagree that it is about the Shepherd. I never claimed the parable was about the "faithfulness" of the sheep. I did and do claim it is about the intention of the Shepherd to keep His sheep safe
Hi kelman,
Right, I agree with you here, even about "the intention of the Shephered to keep His sheep safe". That is, safe from the wolves, thieves and robbers. And from the snatchers. That is what is talked about here.
However, nothing is said to the idea that the Shepherd is like a mental institution warden, who must keep the sheep locked in. Nor like a propaganda artist, e.g. Big Brother of 1984, who will not allow his subjects any freedom of decision. Like a wise and gentle master, the Good Shepherd provides safety to His followers; not "forced safety" for anyone foolish enough to rebel against Him.
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If this passage were meant to teach Eternal Security, we would expect 10:7-18 to give some further explanation on that topic. But there is nothing there. All you have is a few phrases like "they will not follow a stranger" back in 10:3-5, and you are trying to make a Big Proof for Eternal Security out of that.
Yep, all I have in John 10 is: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
I'd say any reasonable reading of the above would see "a Big Proof for Eternal Security out of that".
Ok, you are admitting that John 10:7-18 gives you no support for your interpretation of John 10:3-5. Nothing in the immediate context suggests that Eternal Security is being talked about. You have to go all the way to 10:27-29; and then (again) ignore the context around those verses.
Since we've already gone around on this passage several times (e.g. several posts around #3416) I'll refrain from discussing it here. I'll just note that your Big Proof rests on three verses, interpreted totally out of the immediate context of the passage, which is all about Jesus on the verge of getting stoned for claiming he is equal to God. Furthermore, nothing in that passage says or implies that "sheep can't rebel".
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John 11:25,26: "whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die".
So, does this mean that you agree with FreeGrace that if you believe for one second you "shall never die"; you have Eternal Security locked up then and there? Or does it mean that you have to continue to believe (as the Greek progressive implies)? And if it means you have to continue to believe, then how does it prove Eternal Security?
No, I don't agree with FG on this. Of course, it means an ongoing belief. I don't know what you mean by "if you have to continue to believe"? The verse is speaking about believers and IF you are one, you are saved and have eternal life. Hopefully, there is no disagreement on what the word eternal means.
If you are a believer and continue to believe you "shall never die". That is what this passage says. Do you agree with this? However, if you are a believer and then stop believing, this passage will not apply to you. Do you agree with this also?
By the way, I do not see the phrase "eternal life" in this passage.
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Phil 1:6. This is talking about God's work in the Philippian church; note that use of "partnership in the gospel" (1:5). There is no indication here at all Paul is talking about individual salvation.
No, I don't believe it is. Could Paul be "confident" that this church would be around in a hundred years let alone til Christ returns? No, "he which hath begun a good work in you, will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:" refers to the "work of God" done in their hearts. We find this in John 6:29.
Well, I don't see the word "heart" here, nor in John 6:29. Actually in Phil 1:7 we see that Paul has the Philippians in his heart, if we care about hearts.
Nor does this verse have the word salvation, or eternal life, or anything like that. It is really about their partnership with him, especially about money (e.g. see 4:10-19), but also about other service. Paul's confidence is that they will continue to do this kind of work out into the future.
But if you want to rip this one verse out of context like this, and call it a Big Proof for Eternal Security, then I guess I have no answer for you. As I've said before, anyone can prove any doctrine they want by pulling scriptures out of context like this.
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Rom 8:35-39: "Who can separate us from the love of Christ?" "Shall trouble or hardship, . . ." These are all external forces. There is nothing here about "you can't rebel from Christ." That is a totally separate question. If you rebel and turn away from Christ then you no longer belong to the "us" who follow Christ.
Wow, you can't get anymore all-encompassing than those verses. In addition to all which Paul had previously included he now says "any other creature" meaning there is NO creature who can separate a believer from the love of God - believers qualify as creatures, don't you think? Paul is making it clear there is nothng in the entire universe that can separate a believer from the love of Christ.
I totally agree that this passage describes God overwhelming protection for believers. It certainly gives good reason, and encouragement, for believers to remain faithful. But it doesn't make anyone stay faithful, if they are foolish enough to rebel. That topic is just not talked about.
The argument about "believers qualify as creatures" (and thus cannot separate themselves from God) is just a word-trick. It is just like the argument from John 10:28-29 that “no one can snatch you out of my hand” means that “no one (including yourself) can snatch you out of my hand”.
For example (if you follow football), suppose Eli Manning throws a pass to Plaxico Burress on the 20 yard line, with no defender within striking distance. You can say, “Burress has the touchdown, no one can stop him now.” This is a perfectly valid statement, and does not mean “Burress can’t stop himself”. It does not mean “no one (including himself) can stop him now.” Burress could stupidly run out of bounds, or trip and fall down. Your statement is not referring to that possibility.
You can’t just put “including yourself” in these kinds of statements. Those kinds of “arguments” from Scripture words just show an ignorance of how language works. (And Greek is no different from English here, in case you are wondering.)
For a Bible example, take John 13:28 – “Now no one at the table knew why he (Jesus) said this to him (Judas).” So, does the “no one” include Jesus? Should we say: “Now no one (including Jesus himself) at the table knew why he (Jesus) said this to him (Judas).” Did Jesus not know why he said that to Judas?
To be fair, it is not always true that “no one” means “no one excluding yourself”.
It all depends on the context. Usually you just can't make any firm conclusions either way.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2008 5:06:19 AM
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Tychicus
Posts: 103
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline
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kelman: We can't tell God; but, He can tell us - and He has. He tells us He is the potter and He does the molding of the vessel with the vessel having no say how he is to be molded. That's also the point Paul is making in Rom 9.
Tychicus:No, it does not say "with the vessel having no say". And that is not the point in Rom 9.
kelman: That is very much the point "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
Hi kelman,
I will answer this one separately since it is almost on another topic. Also I'm out of time right now. Hopefully I will get to it tomorrow.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2008 7:12:50 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2375
Status: online
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To me continual repentance is doubt that you are saved
and dis belief that it was finished at the cross.
Oh, my friend, I am afraid I disagree most strenuously.
Continual repentance may not be what you think.
It is not a self-flagellating state of being where we walk around
all day beating our breasts declaring, "Have mercy on me, a poor sinner."
It may not even have to do with sin. It is simply a Romans 12 desire
for continual renewal; a life characterized by progressive transformation
of the mind and heart, and one of the results is that sin becomes
less and less dominant and more and more repugnant to us.
It is a continual, progressive renewal of the mind and heart; a process
whereby through a renewed heart and life, our mindset is changing.
We might from time to time slip and even fall, but the inner conviction
we have because the Holy Spirit dwells in us will not allow us to
live a life of continual, willful, unremorseful sin.
Dear friend, continual repentance is actually an assurance we know Him!
When we are born again we are a new person with a new realtionship with sin.
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For Christ was the last sacrifice, and there is no further forgiveness
from God's point of view after the cross. For there is no more blood shed.
From God's vantage point he took all sin away at the cross.
Yes, we are justified once for all, but the very process of sanctification
is one where we grow in holiness and this cannot occur if we are living
in a state of unrepentant sin.
The believer must still ask for forgiveness, not in the context of our salvation,
but as a result of a new heart yearning to please God and know more of Him.
The sin that separated us from God before we were saved will still draw
us away from him and out of his will after we are saved.
The true believer will be convicted and the Holy Spirit will not allow him
to deny his faith, turn his back on God and deny the cross.
Do you believe "once forgiven, always forgiven"? Do you think Christ died
for the forgiveness of all sins - past, present and future?
Do you feel grieved in your heart when you sin against God?
If so, do you ask him to forgive you and restore you?
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We as people continue to try and stop sin, and we can never do
this, this is why we are caught up in it.
I disagree. I have reached a point in my life where I am
am not "caught up in sin", as you say. I would say the Holy Spirit
prevents me from sinning as much as I desire not to sin.
Yes, I live in a corrupt body with a corrupt mind,
but I can truthfully say sin does not dominate my life.
The believer should have some victories to claim over sin, or there is
no progressive sanctification occurring and he should be concerned.
Sinless perfection is an overbalanced view of sanctification, which I do not believe.
But that being said, the very process of sanctification primarily addresses sin.
As we are predestined to christlikeness in this life, and because we are free
from the bonds of sin, sin should be a diminishing factor as we grow in
our relationship with God.
This is Christian maturity and it cannot occur if sin is a dominant theme in a believer's life.
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The jews the first chosen could never ever do it prior to Christ.
Do not confuse works with the sanctificaiton of the believer.
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Those that believe are eternally saved and those that believe will grow in grace,
and our Father will carry it on until the return of Christ his only perfect Son.
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For God can not live in one that still sins.
I think he can and does.
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So he took all sin out of the way so he could live in one that believes,
yet sins, teaching that one truth that ends up saying no to sin.
Right, but we do it (sin) anyway!
Its a constant battle flesh vs. spirit.
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This is how I know I am born agin, by the growth God has done,
and he gets all the credit Love ineffable
Amen. Isn't it wonderful knowing our assurance comes from "Him in us"
rather than "us in Him"?
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The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 5:36:05 AM
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Tychicus
Posts: 103
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline
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Tychicus: So, yes, God will choose to do what he wishes, based on his Sovereign Will. Suppose God decides to "mar" or "unmar" a vessel, not based on some decree before the foundation of time, but because he sees how the vessel behaves, as we see in Jer 18:7-10. Suppose God wants to make his decisions that way. Can we tell God that He can't do this?
kelman: We can't tell God; but, He can tell us - and He has. He tells us He is the potter and He does the molding of the vessel with the vessel having no say how he is to be molded. That's also the point Paul is making in Rom 9.
Tychicus: No, it does not say "with the vessel having no say". And that is not the point in Rom 9.
kelman: That is very much the point "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
I'm answering this one separately since it is almost on another topic. And, yes, I recognize your answer, because it is a typical Calvinist understanding of this passage. As to be expected, of course, it assumes the "O man" here is an Arminian who is complaining that God is unfair, and Paul the Calvinist is setting him straight: "Who are you, O Arminian, to question the idea that God predestines people to heaven or hell, with them having no say."
But is the “O man” an Arminian? What if he is really a Calvinist? Think about that one awhile.
In fact, the “O man” is neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian. He is a Jew. A very traditional Jew. A Christian, perhaps, but of the Judaizing kind. And he takes God’s promises very seriously, e.g. those in Rom 9:4-5, but of course he understands that these promises are given to Jews, to ethnic Jews, certainly not to Gentiles. We see him first pop up in Rom 2:1, really in most of chapter 2 and the beginning of chapter 3; and he also shows up on occasion in chap 4, 6, 7, and now 9. Sometimes he is called “O man”, sometimes “one of you”, sometimes just “you”. In 2:17, he is called “you, if you call yourself a Jew”. He might not be one specific person, but a representative of a group; like in modern America we might say, “you, O Republican” or “you, O Democrat” in a political discussion.
You might not buy all this right away, but I would encourage you to read all of Romans very carefully, following Paul’s arguments, and checking on these references to “O man”, and “you”, etc. Whether you agree with me or not, it should be a very rewarding study.
But in many ways this Jew is very much a Calvinist. After all, he is one of the Elect, God’s chosen people. And he also believes in Eternal Security – not exactly as Calvinists do today, but he does believe that God’s promises to Israel are eternally secure. And they will not be shared with the non-elect (i.e., the Gentiles). After all, as he reasons, God made promises to Israel; therefore if Israel is rejected it means that God failed. And that just can’t be. (You see Paul’s response to this kind of reasoning in 3:4 and 9:6. Like I said, you must pay proper attention to the text; you can only understand what the “O man” is saying by studying Paul’s responses carefully.)
And this is really what is going on in Romans 9. After all, just look at the beginning of the chapter. What does it say?
It does not say, “Ok, now I Paul am going to explain to you how it came about that Jacob went to heaven and Esau went to hell. It was all because of God’s decision made at the beginning of time, before Jacob and Esau were ever born. . . .” Nothing like that is said; and the reason is that Paul had no intention of ever discussing such a topic.
What Rom 9:1-5 does bring up is the puzzle of Israel: if all the OT promises are addressed to Israel, then why is it that most of the Jews are not accepting Christ? Instead, it is mostly Gentiles who are becoming believers. How does that square with the promises of God (e.g. see 9:4-5)?
The rest of chapter 9 is really a response to the Jewish version of Eternal Security. They argued that the promises were for Israel; and if you let all the Gentiles in | | |
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