All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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Fritzpw_Admin -> All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread (1/6/2006 4:34:30 PM)

Are the prophecies of Daniel, Revelation, etc, yet to come, or were they fulfilled in the first century? Are any prohecies yet to be fulfilled?

Is a double-fufillment of Matthew 24 possible—one in 70 AD for Jerusalem and one in the future with world-wide impact?

Is it possible to hold a full Preterist view and believe the Nicene Creed?

Discuss these and other issues that revolve around the topic of Preterism.

NOTE: If you are a Pre-terist THIS thread is the only one in which you may discuss your end-times view.



Fwanger -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/6/2006 4:40:25 PM)

I've wondered how long it would take for this debate to become a One Stop Thread. [;)]

Let the battles begin.....



Hattie4Him -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/6/2006 8:53:42 PM)

Wow, this is a surprised to me! I didn't even know 'When will he finally return?' or 'Reality Corner: The Return' was Preterism vs. Futurism threads; I thought we were just talking; Not debating issues (of course there is always one who has to debate--- it's in her nature). So since I don't even know; nor want to know; what either of these [Preterism or Futurism] are—guess this will have to be my last post on either of these threads. Thanks guys, I was both learning and enjoying both thread discussions.

Pat



FatherKnowsBest -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/6/2006 10:33:31 PM)

Since this appears to be the official thread for debating these issues, I will start with the defense of full-preterism. I hope we can have more of a serious debate and focus on what the scriptures teach. The text I will focus on is Daniel ch. 12.

Da 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
Da 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Da 12:3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.
Da 12:4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
Da 12:5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank.
Da 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?"
Da 12:7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

This vision/prophecy is concerning the “sons of your people” which any interpreter can see as referring only to the Jewish people. It is about a time of trouble “such as never was since there was a nation”. At this time those who sleep in the dust shall awake either to everlasting life or everlasting contempt. This is interpreted by all (that I know of) as referring to the general resurrection. The time of all this is clearly stated as “when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered”. The holy people should be clearly seen as God’s covenant people at that time. This is how Daniel would have understood this.

Jesus speaks of a time when "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be” (Mt 24:21). This verse is interpreted by partial and full-preterists as taking place in 70AD. It is confirmed by Jesus statement "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place” (Mt 24:34).

What is also evident of the fulfillment of this passage in Daniel is the timing of “when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered”. The holy people are the Jewish people who were in a covenant relation with God. The power of this people is the Law. This is made plain by the fact that the Law was the thing that kept them in a covenant relation. It is not something carnal like military power or intellectual power, but it is what God considers power, and that is what He has divinely set up as a means to be right with Him.

In the book of Hebrews we see God’s removal of this system.
Heb 12:26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven."
Heb 12:27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

This passage contrasts the things being shaken from the things that remain. We should all agree that the thing that remains is the Kingdom of Christ (ie. The new covenant, the church). This kingdom is not something that comes at once visible from heaven, but is something “we are receiving”, the “we” meaning those people at that time period.
The author of Hebrews also says, “In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away” (Heb 8:13 ).
Isn’t this the theme of the book of Hebrews: to convey how much better the new covenant is than the old covenant?

The shattering of this power is brought about by a judgment that was to take place that would remove this power. It is clear from New Testament passages that judgment was soon to take place.
1pe 4:17 “For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God”
Jas 5:8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Jas 5:9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

History proves that a great catastrophe happen to the Jewish nation in 70AD. It is only natural to interpret this soon to take place judgment as being fulfilled at that event. Jesus predicted this judgment when He spoke the seven woes:
Mt 23:35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Mt 23:36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
It was a judgment to take place in His generation.

Now the time period of the events spoken of in Daniel were called “the time of the end”. The question is: end of what? From the context it must be referring to the end of the power of the holy people. This would naturally be understood as the end of the law, old covenant, and Jewish age.

When the end of the age happens it would bring about a new age.
Lu 18:30 "who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life."
This age to come would bring about eternal life. So if it has not arrived, eternal life has not come. I wonder if the saints who have passed on would say that eternal life has come.

The other aspect in Daniel ch. 12 is the resurrection. This was going to take place the same time as the time of trouble for the holy people, the shattering of their power, and the time of the end.

Jesus speaks of this in Matt. Ch.16.
Mt 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Mt 16:28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

This rewarding of works was to take place before all of them had died.
The rewarding of works is spoken again in the book of Revelation.
Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Re 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

How many times is everyone rewarded according to their works? There can be only once, and that is during the Great White Throne Judgment. No where else according to scripture can this be applied. Before this time no one was in hell. The dead were in a place called hades, and at the judgment hades was cast into the lake of fire.

One might object to this interpretation of Daniel since the Jewish people were not delivered. But it should be pointed out that there is a qualification to those who were delivered. That is: everyone who is written in the book. What book? The book of life. They were delivered from hades because their names were written in the book of life. From an earthly point of view, the Christians were delivered from Jerusalem, and no doubt their names were written in the book life.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/7/2006 2:47:58 AM)

Greetings,

What is a one stop thread?


I was in Warnings from the Lord and ended up here, in the lake of fire[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]



bygraceiamsaved -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/7/2006 3:27:34 AM)

I would suggest that all those who cannot calmly and rationally contribute to this thread without all the useless rehtoric stay out of this thread. If you have something to contribute to Larryhill's post or to discuss partial preterism rationally then join in. Otherwise this would not be the thread for you. [:@]



L.P.Zijlstra -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/7/2006 6:07:59 AM)

Dear brother in Christ,

Daniel 12 for me is not a prophecy about 70AD. Vers 1 starts with: At that time....
What time is spoken of? The last verses of chapter 11 reads:
quote:

44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at [f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.


At that time, when this king of the north is come to his end.
Has that happened in 70AD?

On my website ( http://home.wanadoo.nl/lpzijlstra/holocauste.htm )

I try to explain that when Daniel is explained about the future all that is written in chapter 10:14-12: 4 is in a historical order, which means that chapter 11 starts unfolding history year by year and day by day. If Daniel 12:1 is the end of the people of Israel, when did these verses of the end of chapter 11 happen? And what did Michael do? When? Difficult questions.

Who is this king of the north from Daniel 11:36-end?
Many teachers tell me that in chapter 11: 31 is a description of Antioch Epiphanes, who did these things.
Then is told about the men of the Jews that resist him: The Makabean. Vs 32.
Then in vs 33-34 we see the time of the church written. 2000 years of history.
Some believe that the king of vs 34 is the anti-christ.
I don't learn that from Scripture. This king may have some of the caracteristics of the AC , as did Antioch Epiphanes, but in the timeline presented in these chapters that is not possible. This king is not the AC.

Don't forget that Daniel is told about the future of his people the Jews. Only there where world history and Jewish history meet we learn something about both.

quote:


44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.


This is the central vers to understand this prophecy in historical perspective.
The "many"are in particular Jews.
When were they destroyed and annihilated? 6 million?
Destroyed means killed in masses (by gas, poison etc)
Annihilate means made to dust ( nothing) that could be done by burning.
Does this sound a bit familiar? 2nd ww? Hitler?
If not and you are right that this all happened in 70 AD what people were killed in the 2nd ww then? Were there no more Jews to be killed? Who were they?

I believe that chapter 12 starts with the time after WW2.
The Jews won various wars against their enemies after 1948 (Michael helping them)
The next verses about tribulation and end time are now very near.

Se my website for more details.

Have a warm (spiritual speaking) sunday together with our Lord Jesus.



goingupupup -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/7/2006 9:21:46 AM)

I think it was Paul who said "There are those who claim the resurrection has already taken place, and they have destroyed the faith of some". Paul was not of coarse speaking of Jesus' resurrection, but of the event spoken of in Revulation, which is odd, because Revelation wasn't written at this point!

Also:

Read the book of Exekiel, in it is speaks of the coming second scattering of the Jews and God's promise to one day restore them from their land.

"Until that time, Israel shall be walked upon by gentiles, until the time of the gentiles be forefilled."

(
"Then I will gather my chosen from the four corners of the earth".

70 AD is not the forefillment of Revulation, but of the Exekiel prophecy, when Rome invaded Israel and the Jews were scattered amongst the nations.

Also Revulation was written in 90 AD.

Those who say the Bible isn't to be taken literally word for word as it is written, are those who basically don't really believe. They are taking God's word and ignoring the parts they don't understand or don't like.

And as for the Millenium...

The following is from somewhere in the New Testament:

"The Lion shall lie with the lamb". Basically the verse says animals that are normally predator/prey will not behave as such. The curse placed on the world after Adam and Eve sinned and were cast from the garden will be partially removed.

from Revelation:

"I shall govern the nations from Israel with a Rod of Iron."

Unless you believe the Freemasons(which are responsible for the new Surpreme Court building in Israel) are God, then it is clear the returned lord is not in charge of Israel, let alone Israel governing the world. This is the point in time leading up to the time of Jacob's trouble, or the Tribulation. Israel is now a thorn in the side of all the nations, even the US government because of Bush' actions has now turned against Israel, siding with Abbas.

Also on Dominism, aka the LOrd returning threw his people, that is so false it is laughable.

In Revelation, and in Matthew it makes it quite clear how Christ shall return. His sign will appear in the heavens and be seen by everyone on Earth. He will come in power and great glory on top of a white horse of war, and he will defeat the forces of the Beast with the sword of his mouth.

Basically Dominism is worse than Preterism(historically and biblical false) and Milleniumism(historically and biblically false) because it basically says the Church IS God, because that would have to be the case for the above events I quoted of Christ's return to fit with the Prophecy.

Continue waiting for the Lord, he is going to return and the day isn't that far off anymore..



sooner -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/7/2006 12:09:59 PM)

quote:

Those who say the Bible isn't to be taken literally word for word as it is written, are those who basically don't really believe. They are taking God's word and ignoring the parts they don't understand or don't like.


Such hypocrisy and ignorance. Do you not understand literal truths can be expresses in metaphoric or figurative language? I guess not.

Now, lets take your verse: "Then I will gather my chosen from the four corners of the earth".


Four corners? Doesn’t that indicate a square? Is the earth a square? Are we not suppose to take it literally?

Perhaps you can explain the “literal word for word as it is written” words in Rev 1:1,3. Can you do that for me?

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Hmm. Things which must shortly come to pass. What is your literal word for word explanation of this? Are we not to take it literally?

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The time is at hand. I guess if I take that to mean the events of Revelation were getting ready to unfold in John’s day, then I just don’t believe. How did you put it: “They are taking God's word and ignoring the parts they don't understand or don't like.”
quote:

He will come in power and great glory on top of a white horse of war, and he will defeat the forces of the Beast with the sword of his mouth.


But in other places it says He comes in the clouds. Which are literal? Oh I know, they are horse shaped clouds. Problem solved, literalism still intact.

quote:

Continue waiting for the Lord, he is going to return and the day isn't that far off anymore..


Wow, that’s just what James said almost 2000 years ago:

Jam 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Now were those to whom James was writing suppose to take that literally or not?

Perhaps you would like to continue discussing how you take the Bible literally? Maybe Rev 6:13?



bygraceiamsaved -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/7/2006 1:31:25 PM)

Thanks goingup and L.P. for disagreeing with some class. However when you use the word literal goingup, I believe that the Bible should be read literally meaning "In a literal manner; word for word"(Answers.com) or "Being in accordance with, conforming to, or upholding the exact or primary meaning of a word or words"(Answers.com).

Sooner and Larryhill: As you know I am partial preterist aka orthodox preterist and I agree with you on most things concerning 70 AD, could you however clarify what you mean when you say resurrection? Are you talking the resurrection of Christ from the grave, the resurrection of the dead? And could you go into more detail. Thanks.



bygraceiamsaved -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/7/2006 1:39:40 PM)

quote:

Do you not understand literal truths can be expresses in metaphoric or figurative language? I guess not.


I also agree with this as well. The O.T. is to be used to interpret the N.T.



jazzact13 -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/7/2006 1:50:36 PM)

quote:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The time is at hand. I guess if I take that to mean the events of Revelation were getting ready to unfold in John’s day, then I just don’t believe. How did you put it: “They are taking God's word and ignoring the parts they don't understand or don't like.”


The preterist's 'time words' have been dealt with in the past. Here is an excerpt, dealing with Rev 1:3. Emphases mine.

quote:

Here are excerpts from the book 'The End Times Controversy'.

"'Engys' is used twice in the book of Revelation. In fact, the word 'engys' bookends Revelation in 1:3 and 22:10. The apostle writes, "Blessed in he who reads and those who hera the words of the prophecy, and heed the things that are written in it; for the time is 'near' (1:3). At the end of the book an angel speaks to John and says, "Do not seal up the words of ths prophecy of the book, for the time is 'near'...

"In the original Greek text, both Revelation 1:3 and 22:10 read nearly the same way. The verses do not say the kingdom of God (or heaven) is at hand, but 'the season (kairos) is sure'. Here in Revelation, why did John not use the Greek word 'kronos', which would have indicated a nearness in a certain chronological sense? Also, why in these verses did he not use the verb 'engyzo' (with the perfect sense), but instead, simply the noun 'engys'? John is simply focusing on the fact of the certainty about the season someday coming, and is not emphasizing the closeness of the events." (p. 293)

"This family of Greek words (engys, engizo) is a compound with a preposition and a noun meaning "in (the) hand". As an adverb, it carries the thought that something "is certain, it is a sure thing", "one has it in his hand". The 'Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament" Greek lexicaon gives the meaning of the related word 'engyos' as "standing as surety, guaranteeing... In other words, 'certainty' is one of the most compelling meanings for the word..." (p. 285)


The case is this--that the original meaning of the words in Rev 1:3 do not support the preterist's claims that John was saying that the events in Rev would happen 'soon' or that they were 'at hand'; rather, they say that their fulfillment is sure, that they will happen.



jazzact13 -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/7/2006 1:53:33 PM)

quote:

But in other places it says He comes in the clouds. Which are literal? Oh I know, they are horse shaped clouds. Problem solved, literalism still intact.


What is the difficulty? He comes in the clouds, riding a horse. There is no contradiction, and no need for a horse-shaped cloud. Both of those criteria can be literally fulfilled, without them contradicting each other.



Paul_S -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/7/2006 2:21:02 PM)

To all,

I am a pre-millennial, post-trib futurist. And partial to the preterist point of view, though I do not hold it. What I observe is this, the pre-trib view leads to a preterist point of view.

What pre-trib point of view has in common with the preterist point of view, is a biblical perspective for an imminent return of Christ. A post-trib position denies the written word of God teaches an imminent return: But rather holds Christ's return will be sudden and unexplected upon a lost world. (Revelation 1:7. Preterist arguments should be noted.)

What I see being denied by both preterist and the pre-trib view: Is a denial that literally [all] the dead in Christ will be resurrected before any living believer is changed (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.)

Also a denial that Christ will [only] remain a mediator until His second coming (Hebews 9:12, 24, 28.)

And that the perterist denies that the last enemy death will literally be removed (1 Corinthians 15:26; Revelation 20:14.)

Understand these denials that I listed are as given from my understanding, and a post-trib futurist point of view. The pre-trib and perterist may not see that they deny any such thing. If they did, then they would no doubt change their point of view.

Understand also, it is not so much what we think we affirm, but what truths we understand that we do NOT want to deny, that drives what we believe.



bygraceiamsaved -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/7/2006 2:28:23 PM)

Paul: By all the dead being raised, I assume you are speaking of believers and unbelievers?



Paul_S -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/7/2006 3:24:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved

Paul: By all the dead being raised, I assume you are speaking of believers and unbelievers?


No. Not at all. As I explained, I hold a pre-millennial point of view. The pre-millennial view which holds that the resurrection of the dead (Danial 12:2; John 5:28, 29) is separated into two parts, the resurrection of the saved who are in Christ (1 Thessalionians 4:16; Revelation 20:5) to reign with Christ for a literial thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6) before the rest of the dead are rasied for judgment day (Revelation 20:11-15.)



sooner -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/7/2006 4:04:23 PM)

quote:

The preterist's 'time words' have been dealt with in the past. Here is an excerpt, dealing with Rev 1:3. Emphases mine.

quote:

Here are excerpts from the book 'The End Times Controversy'.


Sorry, but I don't use Lahaye and Ice as my guide for understanding prophecy. Why didn't they deal with Rev 1:1?



NaturalBranch -> THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM (1/7/2006 4:16:10 PM)

Preterists are referred to as SCOFFERS in the book of II Peter:

II Peter 3:3-4

"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

And saying, 'Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.'"

We must be patient and diligently study the Word of God. In doing so, God's Spirit can reveal truth and help us to lay aside the doctrine of men and understand His truth.

Christ has NOT returned yet, or I would not be sitting here in my earthly, unglorified body. The first resurrection HAS NOT occured. However, it will occur at the LAST TRUMP. All believers in Christ (both dead and alive) will put on immortality and incorruption (I Cor. 15:51-53). I haven't bumped into Abraham, Moses, King David, or the Apostle Paul yet, so I can feel quite sure that Christ has not returned and that the first resurrection has NOT taken place. There will be no guessing about this event...NONE.

My question to the Preterist is, now what? What happens next? The world keeps on going? Then what? And how would you care to explain I Corinthians 15:20-28? I see enemies of Christ all over the place...alive and well...not destroyed. If this is the kingdom, where is my incorruptible, immortal, glorified body I was promised? If I am struck by a car, I am quite sure I would die.

We can think whatever we will, but that will not make it the truth.



sooner -> RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM (1/7/2006 4:22:42 PM)

quote:

Preterists are referred to as SCOFFERS in the book of II Peter:

II Peter 3:3-4

"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

And saying, 'Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.'"


It is not the preterist who are asking "where is the promise of His coming. It is only the preterist who say He kept His promise. Nice try though.



RJR_fan -> RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread (1/7/2006 5:08:12 PM)

quote:

What is the difficulty? He comes in the clouds, riding a horse. There is no contradiction, and no need for a horse-shaped cloud. Both of those criteria can be literally fulfilled, without them contradicting each other.


This vision reminds me of the opening scene of that propaganda masterpiece Triumph of Will -- an airplane descending through the clouds. It's far safer, I believe, to read the Bible biblically than strictly literally. Yes, every word is true. But God used a variety of genres. Sometimes (GASP!!!!) He even used metaphors to carry across His meaning (After all, that's what a meta is phor!) To read the Bible biblically means to interpret it in terms of itself. What does God mean when He speaks of "coming in the clouds?" Well, what did He mean when He used that language before? When discussing prior historical events?

To insist too fervantly on a "literal" reading of selected verses opens one up to deception. The United Pentecostals can "prove to you from the Bible" that there is no Trinity, after all! To read the Bible profitably, we need to read it with the whole church, and in the context of the rest of the Bible.



RJR_fan -> RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM (1/7/2006 5:16:51 PM)

quote:

My question to the Preterist is, now what? What happens next? The world keeps on going? Then what? And how would you care to explain I Corinthians 15:20-28? I see enemies of Christ all over the place...alive and well...not destroyed.


Well, it's obvious to me that I did not instantly and totally transform my personality upon my conversion, and become instantly sinless, and incapable of sinning. Therefore, my conversion must not have been real, right? If something doesn't happen instantly, you see, it didn't really happen. After all, everyone knows that seeds immediately turn into mature crops the minute you plant them. Babies are born minutes after the parents make love, right? And babies turn into adults the minute after they are born.

After all, if something doesn't happen instantly, it doesn't really happen.

Have you no memory of growing up under the shadow of the bomb? And the certainty of the global triumph of communism, wherein the professional politicians in this country made every effort to come to terms with the anticipated "winners" ahead of time? Yet who views communism as a global threat today?

Let's look at the numbers again.

  • as of 2,000 ad, our population is growing three times as fast as that of the general population.
  • 70% of the gospel's progress has been since 1900.
  • 70% of that, since 1945.
  • 70% of that, since 1996
  • in 1900, 0% of Koreans were Christians.
  • in 1986, that number was up to 20%.
  • in 2000, it's 40% -- including 11 of the 12 largest churches in the world.
  • the kurdish area of iraq has entire towns full of converts from islam.
  • more iranians have come to Christ since 1988 than the 1,000 years before.
  • africa went from single-digits at the turn of the last century to a bit over half at present.
I'm really sorry that isn't good enough or fast enough for you. Tell you what -- you sit and pout and mope and tell us how God has turned His back upon this world, and consigned it to Satan now, and "antichrist" "any day now." Those of us who know our God's grace and power will see what we can do to get a piece of the action, and work with Him to defeat His enemies.



bygraceiamsaved -> RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM (1/7/2006 5:38:52 PM)

quote:

My question to the Preterist is, now what? What happens next?


We live! We teach our children and our grandchildren who will teach their children and their grandchildren of the goodness of God and the wonderful plan of salvation. We pray for a revival. We grow in the study of God and the Bible which a lifetime is not long enough. We bring others to the Kingdom through the spreading of the gospel? We praise God till the day we die or Christ comes for the Church whichever comes first! There is much to do.



NaturalBranch -> RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM (1/7/2006 6:02:08 PM)

Scripture clearly teaches the return of Christ in power and glory. THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. Scripture also teaches that the world will wax old and that seducers will wax worse and worse. Isaiah 51:6, II Timothy 3:13. Scripture does NOT teach that the world will get better and better.

Matthew 24:12 declares: "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

Think how prevalent sin, iniquity, and open violation of God's laws have become over the past thirty years. Several million unborn babies have been legally slaughtered in America alone in the last twenty years, because the love of many has waxed cold.

Matthew 24:37-39 declares: "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

If you study the characteristics of the days of Noah prior to the flood you will find that they are very comparable to our present day. Every form of wickedness imaginable was rampant among the masses according to Genesis 6:5; 11-12 which states:

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually...The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth."

II Thessalonians 2:1-3 states: "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

II Peter 2:1-3 states: "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."

II Timothy 4:3-4 states: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

I Timothy 4:1-4 gives another description of the moral and doctrinal departure that will be evident in the last days:

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away...But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived" II Tim. 3:1-5 & 13

THE LAST DAYS ACCORDING TO JAMES:

"Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you. Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh". James 5:1-8

THE LAST DAYS ACCORDING TO PETER AND JUDE:

"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, 'Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation'" (II Pet. 3:3-4).

"How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit" (Jude 18-19).

So, it seems that scripture DOES NOT support the idea that the world is getting better and better.

May all true believers follow the admonition of Jesus Christ until He comes:

Philippians 2:14-16 "Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life..."

NaturalBranch



FatherKnowsBest -> RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM (1/7/2006 6:07:24 PM)

L.P.,

Many great expositors have had a hard time with Daniel 11. This is simply because it is not clear. It is one of those passages that we consider obscure. One of the principles of hermeneutics is to interpret the obscure in light of the clear. I believe Daniel 12 is much more clear in determining the timing of the event than chapter 11. I know many expositors have interpreted the king of the north as Antiochus Epiphanes. But considering one of the descriptions of him, I think he would be better understood as being of the Jewish race.

Da 11:37 "He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.
Da 11:38 "But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things.

This description of him says something about the God of his fathers. It implies that there is something about the God of his fathers that should be regarded. Now with a pagan god there is nothing to be regarded. A pagan god is worthless and is nothing. The gods of the Greeks and Roman and all the other pagan nations had nothing of value. It is only the true God of the Israelites that needed to be regarded. The translators of the NKJV recognized this as we can see since they capitalized God in the phase “God of his fathers” and didn’t capitalize the others. Some translations use a plural “gods” in the phrase “God of his fathers”. This is due to translators bias. They recognize the implications.

quote:

quote:

44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.


This is the central vers to understand this prophecy in historical perspective.
The "many"are in particular Jews.
When were they destroyed and annihilated? 6 million?
Destroyed means killed in masses (by gas, poison etc)
Annihilate means made to dust ( nothing) that could be done by burning.
Does this sound a bit familiar? 2nd ww? Hitler?
If not and you are right that this all happened in 70 AD what people were killed in the 2nd ww then? Were there no more Jews to be killed? Who were they?

I agree that the “many” are Jews. But during the siege of Jerusalem many Jews were slaughtered. They were slaughtered not only by the Romans by also by the rebels inside the city.

The Jews of today may or may not be descendants from the twelve tribes. The genealogies were destroyed in 70AD and thus eliminating any means that would trace the lineage of modern day Jews to the twelve tribes. It is a sure thing that the Jews of today do not represent a race. They come from many different races and nations with many different racial characteristics. Even if some were descendants from the early Jews it wouldn’t make any difference to God. As Paul clearly says, “there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

In Christ,
Larry



RJR_fan -> RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM (1/7/2006 6:18:10 PM)

quote:

Think how prevalent sin, iniquity, and open violation of God's laws have become over the past thirty years. Several million unborn babies have been legally slaughtered in America alone in the last twenty years, because the love of many has waxed cold.


And America is the whole world, right? Are you telling me that revival south of the equator doesn't count? Perhaps (I speculate) because it's happening among non-anglo colored folks, and they just don't count?

Just want to be sure I understand your point of view -- America is the whole world. If anything is happening, it's happening here. God does not have your permission to do anything else anywhere else.



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