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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/14/2008 9:48:02 PM
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bob97
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Do the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes in 164 B.C Fore shadow the events that occurred in 70 AD?
Why do we think that the events of 70AD do not for shadow the events of the end of the epoch? I think this is a very likely scenario. This seems to be the way God allows events to happen...one is a reflection of the next.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/14/2008 10:03:26 PM
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SonicStudent
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Hi guys,
It's 2.40 am, I've studied and pondered and weighed scripture and still have a ton to consider. But some things I feel I do feel confident with now are;
Jesus and not anti-Christ is the subject matter of the prophecy here.
Sacrifice and offering was ceased because God had received the ultimate and perfect sacrifice once for all by His Son Jesus Christ.
Desolation is brought on Israel through the Jews rejection of messiah.
As said, I do believe in an anti-Christ at the end deceiving Israel. I do believe Israel will accept this false Messiah.
I also, because of other scriptures in the Gospels and Revelation and epistles believe there may well be a replay of the destruction brought on Israel in AD70, at the end, before Christ returns. You know what I mean, ‘what has been once will be again, but to an ultimate fulfilment’.
It seems clear through scripture that the nations will gather against Israel again at the end.
Ok, back to study…
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/14/2008 10:06:27 PM
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SonicStudent
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Oh, and I feel very confident that Jesus' rejection and crucifixion takes us to half way through the 70th week. LOL
Blessings Bob and Retro
< Message edited by SonicStudent -- 11/14/2008 10:23:56 PM >
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/14/2008 10:28:44 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
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From: Florida
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Shabbat shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Do the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes in 164 B.C Fore shadow the events that occurred in 70 AD?
Why do we think that the events of 70AD do not for shadow the events of the end of the epoch? I think this is a very likely scenario. This seems to be the way God allows events to happen...one is a reflection of the next.
Bob
Yes, in one sense. The abomination of his sacrifice of the pig upon the altar in the Temple did indeed desecrate the Temple and caused the sacrifices to temporarily stop. HOWEVER, the events that occurred in 70 AD were a desolation that happened as the result of the abomination of the Jews' rejection of YHVH's Messiah, Yeshua`. Furthermore, Yeshua`s sacrifice not only caused the permanent end for the need of further sacrifice, but it also sealed the fate of the Second Temple!
So, in the reality of a comparison between the two, Antiochus' actions were far less severe and far less effective.
As an aside, I believe that Dani'el 11:31 is a portion of the prophecy that is specifically about Antiochus Epiphanes.
Retrobyter
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/14/2008 10:43:40 PM
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bob97
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Retro...are you saying that you see a vile person as described in 11:21 as a person who will defile the temple and take away the daily sacrifice, who will appear towards the end or am I misunderstanding you?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/14/2008 10:43:55 PM
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SonicStudent
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Here is a pretty good description of the 3 1/2 year thingy.
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/70weeks.htm
Bob
Wow, thanks for posting this Bob.
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 12:05:13 AM
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Retrobyter
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Shabbat shalom, SonicStudent.
I also promised this issue:
The b'rit (covenant) that Yeshua` made with Isra'el is found in Luke 1:72. It is also aluded to in other portions of Scripture. Here's the context of Luke 1:72:
Luke 1:59-79
59 And it came to pass, that on the eighth day they came to circumcise the child; and they called him Zacharias, after the name of his father.
60 And his mother answered and said, Not so; but he shall be called John.
61 And they said unto her, There is none of thy kindred that is called by this name.
62 And they made signs to his father, how he would have him called.
63 And he asked for a writing table, and wrote, saying, His name is John. And they marvelled all.
64 And his mouth was opened immediately, and his tongue loosed, and he spake, and praised God.
65 And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judaea.
66 And all they that heard them laid them up in their hearts, saying, What manner of child shall this be! And the hand of the Lord was with him.
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
KJV
Another mention of the covenant can be found in ...
Rom 11:26-27
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
KJV
Recall, here, that the word "saved" can also be translated "rescued," and the word "Deliverer" is directly related to the word translated "saved" or "rescued."
The covenant is NOT ONLY found in the words "when I shall take away their sins." The covenant is what was written in Scripture and is found in the words "so all Isra'el shall be rescued!" Just as in Luke 1:70-75, the covenant is that the Messiah, hence Yeshua`, would be "raising up an horn of salvation (a rescue)," would be "saving (rescuing) us from our enemies," and would be "delivering (rescuing) us out of the hand of our enemies."
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
This also explains why Yeshua` quoted PART of the prophetic passage found in Isaiah 61:1-3:
Isa 61:1-3
61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
KJV
in Luke 4:17-21:
Luke 4:17-21
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
KJV
Notice that He did NOT quote the rest of verse 2 nor verse 3, because by this time in His ministry He was already seeing the signs of rejection!
Retrobyter
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 2:11:32 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
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Shabbat shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Retro...are you saying that you see a vile person as described in 11:21 as a person who will defile the temple and take away the daily sacrifice, who will appear towards the end or am I misunderstanding you?
Bob
Yes, I'm afraid that you've misunderstood me. Dani'el is given the prophecy of several nations in chapters 10 and 11.
The highlights of this passage are these:
1. "There shall stand up yet three kings in Persia": Artaxerxes II, Artaxerxes III, and Darius III. (Arses' reign was too short and he was considered an usurper, as well.)
2. "A mighty king (of Greece) shall stand up": Alexander of Macedon or Alexander the Great
3. "His kingdom will be broken and divided to the four winds": Alexander dies at the young age of 32 and his empire is divided between four of his generals, Ptolemy I Soter who took Egypt and a small part of modern day Turkey, Cassander who took Greece, Lysimachus who took Macedon, and Seleucus I Nicator who took most of the empire's area. He had the Fertile Crescent including Isra'el, Persia, Iraq, and part of India.
4. "The king of the south": the Egyptian satrap Ptolemy I
5. "One of his princes...strong above him": Ptolemy II
(More to come)
Retrobyter
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/15/2008 9:56:07 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
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24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sin, and to forgive iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and prophet, and to anoint the most holy place. 25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times. 26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and upon the wing of detestable things shall be that which causeth appalment; and that until the extermination wholly determined be poured out upon that which causeth appalment.' (Hebrew Bible Translated)
24`Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies. 25And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times. 26And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations. 27And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.' (Young’s Literal Translation.)
Retro…bear with me here but I have more questions.
First I’m trying to find a bible translation that is dependable and don't give me a Hebrew translation because somehow I’m not very good with that.
I’ve been looking at the Hebrew Bible translated to English, at Young’s Translation and then at the King James.
Second question; I notice that Christ is referred to as Messiah or as Messiah the Prince or anointed or anointed one (9:24, 9;26). Then in verse 26 we have reference to the prince to come or leader which is not referenced to either Messiah or capitalized Prince. Seems to be a difference reference and not to Christ. This gives me every reason to assume that the capitalized prince is other than Christ. I know you're going to tell me they are all in reference to Christ but I'm still having a difficult fitting my head around that.
Then in verse 27 we have reference to “the desolate” KJV, “the desolate one”YLT and “that which causeth appalment” Hebrew Translation. So I'm finding it difficult to determine exactly "what" we are describing here.
I'm searching for balance and having a difficult time finding it. The fact that the first half is over is not the concept that is causing my problem...I can see merit in that.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2008 2:22:36 AM
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Josh4LinC
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quote:
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/70weeks.htm
You after reading this link, there does seem to be good reasoning for the partial preterist view. However, it does leave 3.5 years yet to be fulfilled. My understanding is this will be when Jesus fulfills those grander prophecies that the Jewish people thought Messiah would fulfill the first time.
With that, Retro, would you share your understanding of Daniel 12, especially verse 11, where it says:
quote:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. NKJV
Thank you.
_____________________________
In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2008 3:35:36 AM
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Retrobyter
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From: Florida
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Shalom, Bob, v'shavuah tov. (Peace, and a good week.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sin, and to forgive iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and prophet, and to anoint the most holy place. 25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times. 26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and upon the wing of detestable things shall be that which causeth appalment; and that until the extermination wholly determined be poured out upon that which causeth appalment.' (Hebrew Bible Translated)
24`Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies. 25And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times. 26And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations. 27And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.' (Young’s Literal Translation.)
Retro…bear with me here but I have more questions.
First I’m trying to find a bible translation that is dependable and don't give me a Hebrew translation because somehow I’m not very good with that.
I’ve been looking at the Hebrew Bible translated to English, at Young’s Translation and then at the King James.
Second question; I notice that Christ is referred to as Messiah or as Messiah the Prince or anointed or anointed one (9:24, 9;26). Then in verse 26 we have reference to the prince to come or leader which is not referenced to either Messiah or capitalized Prince. Seems to be a difference reference and not to Christ. This gives me every reason to assume that the capitalized prince is other than Christ. I know you're going to tell me they are all in reference to Christ but I'm still having a difficult fitting my head around that.
Then in verse 27 we have reference to “the desolate” KJV, “the desolate one”YLT and “that which causeth appalment” Hebrew Translation. So I'm finding it difficult to determine exactly "what" we are describing here.
I'm searching for balance and having a difficult time finding it. The fact that the first half is over is not the concept that is causing my problem...I can see merit in that.
Bob
I don't know what to do about the English translations. I would normally suggest the Complete Jewish Bible, but even it doesn't do the Hebrew justice here. I have not seen a good translation of Dan. 9 yet! It's almost like they didn't know which way to go with the translation; so, if they couldn't see the intentions of the author, they could only make a best guess in translating. This is just a guess on my part, but the Jews don't WANT to see any connection to Yeshua` as the Messiah and the Gentiles don't have the expertise necessary in translating the thoughts behind the Hebrew or Aramaic languages since those languages are not their mother tongue! This is an ideal case for the KJV method of translating as close to word-for-word as possible. Then, even if there's an idiom or nuance to the Hebrew language, it is still translated even if the translator isn't quite sure how it should be worded in English. Most modern translations attempt to translate by idioms and thoughts rather than word-for-word and thus give the literal translation less importance.
The Hebrew word "mashiach" strictly means "one who is rubbed" (because the word "anointed" means "rubbed"). Since most think that "anointed with oil" means "having oil poured over" a person, most associate the "anointing" process with the "pouring of oil." But, the word actually applies to the process of massaging in the oil AFTER the pouring of the oil. It's similar to what we do with shampoo. We pour it on our heads (or in our hands to apply over our heads) and then we massage it into our hair and scalp. This is the same as the selection process described in Sh'mot (Exodus) with the "holy anointing oil."
Apart from the literal act, the word also is used figuratively for the selection itself. Thus, 7 weeks or 49 years after the command to build, would be talking about another king of Persia, Artaxerxes II. This is not unprecedented because we have biblical evidence that shows that Darius II was also considered one who was "anointed" by God. These Persian kings were "selected" by God to fulfill His purposes, and the kings benefitted in the process. Therefore, this is not "Messiah the Prince" leading us to think of him as Yeshua` THE Messiah; he is "AN anointed prince." God's selection, though one of many.
We Westerners have a real hang-up on labels. These two words in Hebrew or Aramaic, "mashiach nagiyd," are just two words that can be translated "anointed prince," and the word "mashiach" does not have to refer to THE Messiah of prophecy! To prove this, consider Daviyd's words about King Shaul: "I shall not touch the LORD'S anointed!" The word "anointed" is translated from the SAME WORD, mashiach. As a matter of fact, there are several people in Scripture who were "anointed," Daviyd being one of them! Priests were anointed; kings were anointed; prophets were anointed, and there's some evidence that the judges were also anointed. Yeshua` was anointed to ALL of these positions, and He is the LAST to be anointed as Isra'el's Prophet, King, Priest, and Judge.
And, yes, the "nagiyd haba'" the "prince [that is] to-come" IS a different person altogether.
I hate to have to say this, but there are certain times when you CAN'T afford to trust a translator to do the work. I have found personally that sometimes one must do his own work, and that requires learning the original languages. Granted, these times are rare, but they DO occur! This is just one of them.
"Desolate" is translated from the Hebrew word, "shomeem" (pronounced "show-maim") in verse 27, and the plural is "shomeemowt" (pronounced "show-maim-moat") in verse 26. The word translated "he shall make it desolate" adds a single letter, the mem, to "shomeem" to get "m'shomeem." Thus, as one would expect, these words are all related as the noun, its plural, and the verb form. Again, the verb here, "m'shomeem," must go back to the nearest singular noun that (1) represents a person, and (2) is in the subjective position. That noun is "mashiach" in verse 26. Thus, the Mashiach (Messiah) who is "cut off" is the One who "desolates" or who "is making desolate." Strong's says that the word means "to stun," "to devastate," or "to stupefy." Thus, He is the one who "is making devastated the devastated."
He is rejected as Dani'el's people refuse Him for their King and cut Him off from the land of the living (Isa. 53) AND YET He has the power to leave THEM devastated promising that they would no longer see Him until they can say to Him, "Welcome, come on in, Representative of YHVH!" (literally, "Welcome, the One who comes on the authority of YHVH!" "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!") (Matt. 23:39 cf Psalm 118:26.)
I honestly hope I've answers a few of your questions, but as in any good Jewish investigation, I may have provided you with more questions than answers. May the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) lead you into all Truth.
Retrobyter
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2008 11:22:07 AM
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SonicStudent
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Hi Retro, Bob and Josh, bless ya's,
I too struggle with this. The reason is clear. The application of which way the translation goes is not only important because it changes the text's very meaning to almost opposites (IE -translate one way and we're dealing with Messiah, translate the other way and dealing with an evil prince)
As you say Retro mate, which way that translation goes can very much be influenced by your standpoint. If you were a Jewish translator that really didn't want the text to be viewed as Messianic and you have several possible translation word choices in which you could translate into English, this is going to influence your choices to which word choice you end with, and visa versa if you were an Christian translator.
I’ve looked at the Hebrew as best as I’m able from what you’ve shown us and indeed; it does seem to me to be talking in regard to Messiah. Then I read the verses through, to try to just read in a logical sense, and it still ‘feels’ as if the angel is pointing to a future reference to a future evil prince. Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!
You can definitely read this; ‘And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary’, as being Messiah and the Jewish people. But you can also read it as being the Roman’s and either Titus or a future prince of those Romans.
Obviously, the argument is that only and because of Jesus was the sacrifice and offering ‘truly’ ceased. But as we know, the Romans and Titus did cause it to cease in the more ‘physical sense’ when they sacked Jerusalem, so that doesn’t help this situation, and still again we could be talking of a future prince of a revived Rome stopping a recommenced sacrifice.
I don’t believe in any way there will be a future temple built ‘that the Lord’ will accept’.
However, there could be a temple that the Jews build in ignorance and begin sacrifices again. Having said that the language here ‘seems’ to me to be talking of a legitimate Temple having legitimate sacrifice and offering stopped.
It does seem to make more sense to me that this refers to Messiah and the Jews, however I’m not comfortable why the angel would need to inform us of Messiah being cut off, and the sacrifice and offering being stopped etc in verse 26. Then the angel (with the Messiah view point) seems to revert back to talking about Messiah’s 7-year ministry in verse 27, when the angel says, ‘He shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week’.
Just doesn’t seem to flow, or stick to the same format as the rest of the prophecy has.
It seems to deal with Messiah coming, being cut-off, the result of the cutting off – then goes back to the start to talk of when Jesus starts ministry at the beginning when He begins His seven years at baptism.
Where as if we view ‘the people of the prince to come as futurist, it flows better, as it would seem to be saying;
Messiah will come, be cut off, because of this cutting off, Romans will destroy Jerusalem, a future prince of these Romans will make a covenant for 7 years, break the covenant half way and cause the sacrifice to stop, then ‘abominations and desolations’ etc
So I’m very stuck between heart and head, even when I’ve thought I’ve settle on a view point, the other nags me! Aaaaaaaahhh!!!!
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2008 2:00:13 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
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From: Kansas
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Amen Sonic…this expresses my thoughts almost exactly mate. God wrote these words regardless of how man translated them. Now… one of two things are occurring here…God wants us to be ignorant of the facts or He is telling us exactly what will happen. Somehow I feel if He didn’t want us to know He would not have given us the message.
I’m inclined to believe that the true meaning is exactly how we tend to understand the passage. 
I've searched my heart in an attempted to understand if my sway is preconditioning and hopefully I'm reading with an open heart...I think I am.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2008 2:06:40 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
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From: Kansas
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I should add….I’m not interested in just being right, I’m interested in knowing he truth. I’ve found you can be right…but dead right.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2008 2:39:46 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 439
Joined: 10/20/2008
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As you know Bob, i've stayed up late searching my heart and searching the scriptures. I'm stuck somewhere between the two principles put forward. Swaying between them, dependent on which side i'm focused on, or am reading a study on. Very frustrating!
On the surface, to onlookers it would look like a little to much worry over only a small part of the prophecy. However, that small part changes so very much, and branches into the root of much of what our future hopes and concerns are understood and taught about the end before Christ's return and what to expect and even what we should be looking for.
If it was Jesus that ended the sacrifice and offering mentioned here in Daniel 9(even though in a literal sense we are all aware that ultimately He did anyway) then there is no reason to be looking for a third temple. If it was Jesus that caused desolation on the wing of abominations',because of Israels abomination at rejecting God's salvation, then are we saying 'that's it for Israel? They will slowly be grafted back in to the truth, the nations rise again God's people and Jesus returns to save them? If so, then what is Revelation all about? Where we see Israel's two witnesses, delivering the Gospel to Israel, in the middle of the tribulation and anti-Christ rise up from this beast empire?
Why would Jesus indicate that another would come, not in the name of God, and they 'will' receive him as their saviour?
Why do the scriptures indicate elsewhere that Anti-Christ will make a peace that will be false toward Israel, and just when Israel believe they have acheived safety, he will strike against them.
If there is a 3rd temple Bob, what's your views on it? Do believe it will be recognised by God with its sacrifices, or a Temple of ignorance, or even a Temple not of their fathers, but a type of temple for peace between Muslim and Jew etc???
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"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2008 7:14:57 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
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From: Kansas
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Sonic...I only know this...if Israel were given the green light they would start tomorrow to build that temple because in their view that is the only way they can be holy in the eyes of God
Does God want or demand it...NO. God would not recognize any worship or sacrifice ordained in it. Would God deny them the opportunity to build it…I have no ideal.
If it were built could the Antichrist use it to deceive the Israelites, both in allowing it to be built and scheming to seat himself in it to deceive them into thinking he was God…of course he would.
So in my opinion…both the Antichrist and the Israelites would love to have another temple…it’s up to God.
I bet this doesn't help much does it?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2008 8:07:20 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 439
Joined: 10/20/2008
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Yet, of course it does!
If nothing else, it shows that there is a real reason to build! Would this great false peace be between Israel and the Arab neighbours? Well, the world today recognises that the ongoing struggle here is one of the major threats t world peace and has made the world very nervious for a generation. So what greater symbol would there ever be of world peace being possible for all?
Surely then, there could never be peace if a Jewish temple replaced the Muslim one? Maybe two on the same location? Many proofs have been shown recently that indicate that the temple itself was slightly off from the site where the Dome of the rock is! Just a thought!
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"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2008 8:22:54 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
Would this great false peace be between Israel and the Arab neighbours?
The struggle has always been between Isaac and Ishmael and about Jerusalem.
The Arabs claim the land that Israel now occupies is theirs. They believe that God promised it to them through Abraham. The Jews also claim this land. They believe that God promised them the land they now have, plus more, through Abraham. As long as the Jews control this land, there will be wars and of course Israel will always control it because it was given to them by God...that plus more that the Muslims now control.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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