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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 9:45:25 AM
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charityagape
Posts: 25
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cisco Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
CHRIST & SALVATION
WHAT THE RESURRECTION MEANS TO US AS BELIEVERS
THE TRUTH OF THE RESURRECTION
EVANGELISM
THE GREAT COMMISSION
FAITH
BELIEVE GOD FOR THE GREATER WORKS
BATTLE OF THE MIND
1 WINNING THE BATTLE OF THE MIND
2 WINNING THE BATTLE OF THE MIND
3 WINNING THE BATTLE OF THE MIND
4 WINNING THE BATTLE OF THE MIND
5 DON'T WORRY OR FEAR; TRUST GOD
6 NO CONDEMNATION
7 THREE THINGS TO DO TO NOT FAINT
8 WINNING THE BATTLE OF THE MIND
9 GOD'S BEST PATH FOR OUR LIVES
10 WINNING THE BATTLE OF THE MIND
11 YOUR IMAGINATION
ENLARGE YOUR VISION
1 ENLARGE YOUR VISION
2 ENLARGE YOUR VISION
HOLD ONTO YOUR DREAMS
1 HOLDING ONTO YOUR DREAMS PART I
2 PERSISTENCE & DETERMINATION
3 FIRST KINGS 6
4 TO LEARN IN THE DARK HOURS
5 THREE THINGS TO DO IN THE MIDST OF TROUBLE
6 DON'T LIMIT GOD
7 THE VOICE OF DISCOURAGEMENT
8 DO ALL YOU CAN DO TO MAKE YOUR DREAMS COME TRUE
VICTORIOUS LIVING
1 NEVER LOSE YOUR HOPE
2 JEHOSHAPHAT AND THE PEOPLE OF JUDAH
3 LIVING A LIFE OF FORGIVENESS
4 LIVING A LIFE OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE
5 KEEPING THE RIGHT PERSPECTIVE OF PROBLEMS
6 LIVING A LIFE OF EXCELLENCE
7 GUARDING YOUR THOUGHTS
8 DEVELOPING YOUR POTENTIAL
quote:
I think that just reading the titles alone is enough to show where his emphasis is.
How on earth do these titles show any emphasis.
_____________________________
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 10:25:37 AM
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cjwpastor
Posts: 476
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: charityagape
quote:
CHRIST & SALVATION
WHAT THE RESURRECTION MEANS TO US AS BELIEVERS
THE TRUTH OF THE RESURRECTION
EVANGELISM
THE GREAT COMMISSION
FAITH
BELIEVE GOD FOR THE GREATER WORKS
BATTLE OF THE MIND
1 WINNING THE BATTLE OF THE MIND
2 WINNING THE BATTLE OF THE MIND
3 WINNING THE BATTLE OF THE MIND
4 WINNING THE BATTLE OF THE MIND
5 DON'T WORRY OR FEAR; TRUST GOD
6 NO CONDEMNATION
7 THREE THINGS TO DO TO NOT FAINT
8 WINNING THE BATTLE OF THE MIND
9 GOD'S BEST PATH FOR OUR LIVES
10 WINNING THE BATTLE OF THE MIND
11 YOUR IMAGINATION
ENLARGE YOUR VISION
1 ENLARGE YOUR VISION
2 ENLARGE YOUR VISION
HOLD ONTO YOUR DREAMS
1 HOLDING ONTO YOUR DREAMS PART I
2 PERSISTENCE & DETERMINATION
3 FIRST KINGS 6
4 TO LEARN IN THE DARK HOURS
5 THREE THINGS TO DO IN THE MIDST OF TROUBLE
6 DON'T LIMIT GOD
7 THE VOICE OF DISCOURAGEMENT
8 DO ALL YOU CAN DO TO MAKE YOUR DREAMS COME TRUE
VICTORIOUS LIVING
1 NEVER LOSE YOUR HOPE
2 JEHOSHAPHAT AND THE PEOPLE OF JUDAH
3 LIVING A LIFE OF FORGIVENESS
4 LIVING A LIFE OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE
5 KEEPING THE RIGHT PERSPECTIVE OF PROBLEMS
6 LIVING A LIFE OF EXCELLENCE
7 GUARDING YOUR THOUGHTS
8 DEVELOPING YOUR POTENTIAL
quote:
I think that just reading the titles alone is enough to show where his emphasis is.
How on earth do these titles show any emphasis.
7 of them deal with the "battle of the mind"
4 of them deal with enlarging your vision
4 deal with dreaming and dreaming bigger
5-8 deal with living lives of excellence and/or positive mental attitude
I would say that makes up the majority of those sermons. This is a fine example of showing emphasis on things that are predominately found in the Word of Faith circles and the prosperity gospel and not in orthodoxy evangelicanism.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 11:35:16 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2848
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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Making an assessment on a title doesn't mean squat, because titles don't necessarily tell us what the sermon says. Case in point: years ago my husband had a sermon he entitled, "The F Word," and I can guarantee you that the title doesn't give you a good indication of what it's about. .
So it's wrong to make an assessment without reading the sermons themselves. I think the most fair approach is for all of us to review at least two (preferably three) sermons together. Then we're all on the same page and see the same things and address what is or is not scriptural from there.
So which ones do you want to look at?
I did read the sermon about hanging onto your dreams. It was not my favorite, but hey, one sermon doesn't give you a picture of where someone is coming from.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 11:58:09 AM
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cjwpastor
Posts: 476
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline
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Bzirk,
Though I agree with you in theory, perhaps I should have been more clear in my post because I thought someone might jump to that conclusion. I have seen enough of his "sermons" on TV to know his style and the title is going to fit the message pretty well.
I think you will find that if you read the sermons dealing with the "mind" or PMA or dreams, that me pointing out the emphasis by what the titles are is defendable.
Let me know if you find differently
God bless,
Chad
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 12:32:56 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2848
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cjwpastor
Bzirk,
Though I agree with you in theory, perhaps I should have been more clear in my post because I thought someone might jump to that conclusion. I have seen enough of his "sermons" on TV to know his style and the title is going to fit the message pretty well.
The problem is this. If you are going to give input in this thread that has real impact, then you have to deal with what has actually been said and not just give impressions of and references to what was heard sometime, somewhere with some context, yet no one really knows when or where or the context. Here we have some hard facts to deal with in the body of these sermons. This is something that can be examined systematically on this thread to see if it is scriptural or not. Then it's not about Joel Osteen. Then it's not personal. That can be moved out of the way. It's dealing with the words of the sermon and not him. Right now it's about him and that's all others can see -- an uncharitable personal attack on him. Whereas we need to examine the words. Make sense?
quote:
I think you will find that if you read the sermons dealing with the "mind" or PMA or dreams, that me pointing out the emphasis by what the titles are is defendable.
Let me know if you find differently
God bless,
Chad
I've already read a couple. I'm going to read quite a few before I make my assessment.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 1:14:42 PM
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cjwpastor
Posts: 476
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline
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As I have already stated, I agree with you fully. Some of us however are perhaps a little further along in the process. I encourage you to read the sermons and find out for yourself what is said. As I said before, I have seen enough of him to make an assessement that is not based on what he looks like but on what (or what he does not) teach. And just to clarify, I try to guard against making personl attacks on Joel, but rather focus on the message or theology. If you or anyone else find me being personally insulting of the man, please let me know how.
Lastly, a major issue I have of Osteen is also evident by the titles of his sermons. When one watches him, it does not take long to discern that he is a topical pastor rather than expository and that he allows his theme to guide the text rather than the text to guide his theme. This is not how good Biblical preaching is done and will only serve milk rather than meat to the listener, as well as only propel a persoanl philosophy or agenda rather than God's. When Osteen does refer to a text it is only cursory at best, and used almost as a "source" to back up his own views on how to live a better life. Some may say "well I've heard him use tons of Bible verses in a sermon." This is true. But that is another fallacy called proof-texting. Just because you preach a sermon and pull a verse from Genesis, Ruth, Isaiah, Matthew, Galations, Jude and Revelation does not mean you have accurately portrayed God's revealed truth, but more likely you have picked out those lines which best support your hypothesis.
Does anyone else see this pattern?
God bless,
Chad
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 2:22:19 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1442
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cjwpastor
As I have already stated, I agree with you fully. Some of us however are perhaps a little further along in the process. I encourage you to read the sermons and find out for yourself what is said. As I said before, I have seen enough of him to make an assessement that is not based on what he looks like but on what (or what he does not) teach. And just to clarify, I try to guard against making personl attacks on Joel, but rather focus on the message or theology. If you or anyone else find me being personally insulting of the man, please let me know how.
Lastly, a major issue I have of Osteen is also evident by the titles of his sermons. When one watches him, it does not take long to discern that he is a topical pastor rather than expository and that he allows his theme to guide the text rather than the text to guide his theme. This is not how good Biblical preaching is done and will only serve milk rather than meat to the listener, as well as only propel a persoanl philosophy or agenda rather than God's. When Osteen does refer to a text it is only cursory at best, and used almost as a "source" to back up his own views on how to live a better life. Some may say "well I've heard him use tons of Bible verses in a sermon." This is true. But that is another fallacy called proof-texting. Just because you preach a sermon and pull a verse from Genesis, Ruth, Isaiah, Matthew, Galations, Jude and Revelation does not mean you have accurately portrayed God's revealed truth, but more likely you have picked out those lines which best support your hypothesis.
Does anyone else see this pattern?
God bless,
Chad
You hit the nail right on the head Chad. That is a dead on commentary on many of the current crop of "positive thinking", "prosperity", "have it all" preachers. They sprinkle in a little Scripture to support their "feel good" themes. Even the title of his book is a perfect example "Your Life Now" Our lives are not about "enlarging our vision" (I have no idea what that even means!). It is about taking up our CROSS and following Jesus, not having out ears "tickled" with warm and fuzzy stories and themes!
Oh by the way, here are some titles of some of his other sermons that surprisingly are not currently on his website:
- ENLARGE YOUR VISION
- HOLDING ONTO YOUR DREAMS
- FINANCIAL PROSPERITY
- HOW VALUABLE YOU ARE IN GOD'S EYES
- OVERCOMING THE GREATEST HINDRANCE TO HEALING
- DEVELOPING MIRACLE-WORKING FAITH
- FAITH TO CHANGE YOUR WORLD
- BELIEVE GOD FOR THE GREATER WORKS
- DO ALL YOU CAN DO TO MAKE YOUR DREAMS COME TRUE
- LIVING A LIFE OF EXCELLENCE
- DEVELOPING YOUR POTENTIAL
Here is a sermon on increasing your favor:
"See the Bible says that we can grow in favor," said Osteen in his sermon "Increasing in Favor" (available in RealAudio at http://www.lakewood.cc/a_v_library.htm).
< Message edited by Soxfan -- 5/19/2005 2:25:49 PM >
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 3:00:41 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2848
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cjwpastor
As I have already stated, I agree with you fully. Some of us however are perhaps a little further along in the process. I encourage you to read the sermons and find out for yourself what is said. As I said before, I have seen enough of him to make an assessement that is not based on what he looks like but on what (or what he does not) teach. And just to clarify, I try to guard against making personl attacks on Joel, but rather focus on the message or theology. If you or anyone else find me being personally insulting of the man, please let me know how.
Lastly, a major issue I have of Osteen is also evident by the titles of his sermons. When one watches him, it does not take long to discern that he is a topical pastor rather than expository and that he allows his theme to guide the text rather than the text to guide his theme. This is not how good Biblical preaching is done and will only serve milk rather than meat to the listener, as well as only propel a persoanl philosophy or agenda rather than God's. When Osteen does refer to a text it is only cursory at best, and used almost as a "source" to back up his own views on how to live a better life. Some may say "well I've heard him use tons of Bible verses in a sermon." This is true. But that is another fallacy called proof-texting. Just because you preach a sermon and pull a verse from Genesis, Ruth, Isaiah, Matthew, Galations, Jude and Revelation does not mean you have accurately portrayed God's revealed truth, but more likely you have picked out those lines which best support your hypothesis.
Does anyone else see this pattern?
God bless,
Chad
Apparently I didn't make my point well enough, because you missed it. I KNOW you have made an assessment. That's not the point. The point is that you have not given direct references to specific things that were said to back up your assessment. If you take one of the sermons and directly reference it and show what's wrong with it, then I think you will have much more impact. IOW, with that last paragraph of your post, show some examples from those sermons. It will be much more instructive than you just saying there's a pattern -- show it. Otherwise, you're doing the same thing you're accusing Osteen of doing in not giving text.
BTW, I agree with your assessment -- at least from the three sermons I've read. But I'm going to read many more. So far I do not think Joel Osteen is a teacher. He is more along the lines of an encourager/motivational speaker. He is not instructive in the way of a teacher at all. Not from what I've seen. I do think he does a great job of encouraging people. He has the good ol' boy demeanor down to a tee, and I'm not knocking that at all, because sometimes that is what gets through to people. Plus, I think he's a genuine good ol' boy. So I don't consider that a bad thing.
It can be a good thing, but it's not enough to equip Christians as a teacher should. It is temporal to a degree. They need to be taught who they are in the Lord and not almost completely appealing to people's feelings as seems to be the situation in the sermons I've read. Again, these are great encouragement, but they are not instructive to the degree they should be. The analogy that comes to mind is a yard that is watered frequently but not for long intervals. Oh, it's green, but it has a shallow root system and has to be continually watered as opposed to a yard that is watered deeply but does not need to be watered as often, because the deep watering creates a deep root system.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 3:15:05 PM
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cjwpastor
Posts: 476
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Apparently I didn't make my point well enough, because you missed it. I KNOW you have made an assessment. That's not the point. The point is that you have not given direct references to specific things that were said to back up your assessment. If you take one of the sermons and directly reference it and show what's wrong with it, then I think you will have much more impact. IOW, with that last paragraph of your post, show some examples from those sermons. It will be much more instructive than you just saying there's a pattern -- show it. Otherwise, you're doing the same thing you're accusing Osteen of doing in not giving text.
Again, I agree that that would be the best way to "prove" my point. However, as far as I can tell the only people discussing this right now are a few people who all agree with each other apart from the occassional person who pops in to say "I like Joel." Unless someone comes on the thread and argues that Osteen's messages are completely biblical and completely orthodoxy, than I can not justify alotting time to read or watch any more of his sermons than I already have to be able to cite sources. Osteen is not someone I hate nor someone I admire and to be perfectly honest, I am not so moved to the point of reading his sermons (which I find mind-numbing) just so I can prove that I am right.
If my commentary is unwelcome and you or others wish to pick apart his sermons than I commend you for your diligence and I will perhaps peek in now and then to observe but will happily cease posting on this thread.
God bless and I admire you and others willingness to dig through the trenches. I wish I had the time to join you.
Chad
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 3:27:14 PM
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pblondeau46
Posts: 6
Joined: 5/19/2005
Status: offline
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oh gee............and I thought the interview was for real!
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 3:31:34 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1442
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
Apparently I didn't make my point well enough, because you missed it. I KNOW you have made an assessment. That's not the point. The point is that you have not given direct references to specific things that were said to back up your assessment. If you take one of the sermons and directly reference it and show what's wrong with it, then I think you will have much more impact. IOW, with that last paragraph of your post, show some examples from those sermons. It will be much more instructive than you just saying there's a pattern -- show it. Otherwise, you're doing the same thing you're accusing Osteen of doing in not giving text.
Thought I would provide some TEXT:
Text from a Joel Osteen sermon "Increasing in Favor" (available in RealAudio at http://www.lakewood.cc/a_v_library.htm):
"I believe one of the main ways that we grow in favor is by declaring it. It’s not enough to just read it it’s not enough to just believe it. You’ve got to speak it out. Your words have creative power. And one of the primary ways we release our faith is through our words. And there is a divine connection between you declaring God’s favor and you seeing God’s favor manifest in your life…You’ve got to give life to your faith by speaking it out."
That short piece is blatant WoF false doctrine of Faith is a force and words are the container of that force.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
More:
"The angel went on to say, 'But Zacharias because you didn't believe--because you questioned God you shall remain silent and not be able to speak until the baby is born' (Luke 1:11-20). Zacharias went out of there and just like the angel said he couldn't speak a single word for 9 months until that little child was born. Well, why did God shut his mouth? Why did God take away his speech? It's because God knew Zacharias' negative words would cancel out His plan...See, God knows the power of our words. He knows we prophesy our future. And He knew Zacharias' own negative words would stop His plan."
(Joel Osteen, "Speaking Faith Filled Words," Tape # 223. Daystar Television, May 2, 2004)
This is absurd to think that our words can "cancel out" a plan of the Almighty and Sovereign God. This is the height of arrogance to think that our words can "cancel out" what God wants to do.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Do you know you can cancel out God's best plan with your own negative words? If you go around talking defeat all the time it's going to stop God from bringing it to pass. Ah, you say, 'Joel God is God--If He wants to bless me He will.' No, God works by law. And He said, 'Death and life are in the power of your tongue.' He said, 'You're going to have what you say.'...Your words are going to give life to exactly what you're saying.' No matter how much God loves you. No matter how many good things He has in store--if you speak those destructive words you can cancel out His best plan!"
(Joel Osteen, "Speaking Faith Filled Words," Tape # 223. Daystar Television, May 2, 2004)
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
"She broke that addiction through the power of her words. She prophesied her future. You can do the same thing...Well, you say, 'Joel, that just sorta sounds like wishful thinking.' No, that's using your words to create what you need. That's what the Bible says, 'Calling nonexistent things as though they existed.' Friends, you can change your world by changing your words...Remember, death and life are in the power of the tongue...Eventually your circumstances will line up with your words....Remember, our words will become a self fulfilling prophecy...With our words we can predict what is coming. We can prophesy the future."
(Joel Osteen, "Speaking Faith Filled Words," Tape # 223. Daystar Television, May 2, 2004)
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
"I want to talk to you today about the importance of speaking faith filled words over your life. Words are like seeds. They have creative power. When we speak something out we give life to what we're saying. It's just like we're planting that seed and if we say it long enough eventually we're going to reap a harvest. We're going to get exactly what we're saying."
(Joel Osteen, "Speaking Faith Filled Words," Tape # 223. Daystar Television, May 2, 2004)
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
"And really, we are who we are today in large part because of the words that have been coming out of our mouth. Understand this--our words will become a self fulfilling prophecy....The Bible says in Proverbs, 'We're snared by the words of our mouth."
(Joel Osteen, "Speaking Faith Filled Words," Tape # 223. Daystar Television, May 2, 2004)
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Don't use your words to describe your situation--use your words to change your situation. You are prophesying your future."
(Joel Osteen, "Speaking Faith Filled Words," Tape # 223. Daystar Television, May 2, 2004)
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
"The moment you speak something out it takes on a whole new meaning. See, one of the main ways we release our faith is through our words...If you want to know what you're going to be like 5 years from now--just listen to what you're saying...Start speaking words of faith and victory. Unless you do that you're going to get exactly what you've been saying. Our words will become a self fulfilling prophecy."
(Joel Osteen, "Speaking Faith Filled Words," Tape # 223. Daystar Television, May 2, 2004)
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Friends, you got to charge the atmosphere with your words...You and I can call in good things. Start calling in victory! Start calling in divine health! Start calling in abundant life! If you do that you will begin to see it come to pass. You can prophesy your future."
(Joel Osteen, "Speaking Faith Filled Words," Tape # 223. Daystar Television, May 2, 2004)
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
"I believe one of the main ways that we grow in favor is by declaring. It's not enough to just read it. It's not enough to just believe it. You've got to speak it out. Your words have creative power. One of the primary ways we release our faith is through our words. There is a divine connection between you declaring God's favor and seeing God's favor manifested in your life. And some of you are doing your best to please the Lord. You are living a holy consecrated life, but you're not really experiencing God's supernatural favor. And it's simply because you're not declaring it. You've got to give life to your faith by speaking it out."
(Joel Osteen, Audio Clip, Hank Hanegraaff, Bible Answer-Man Broadcast, April 26, 2004)
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
There is a blasphemous teaching among Word Faith teachers that Jesus did not pay for our sins on the cross. They actually teach that when the blood of Jesus poured out on the cross that it did not atone for our sins. They claim that Jesus had to suffer in our place in hell in order to finish the redemption. There is a long list of these false teachers that adhere to this INCLUDING JOEL OSTEEN :
(Joel Osteen, Sermon, CS-002 - April 23, 2000, "The Truth of The Resurrection")
"The Bible indicates that for three days, Jesus went into the very depths of hell. Right into the enemy's own territory. And He did battle with Satan face to face. Can you imagine what a show down that was? It was good vs. evil. Right vs. wrong. Holiness vs. filth. Here are the two most powerful forces in the universe have come together to do battle for the first time in history. But thank God. The Bible says, "Satan was no match for our Champion". This was no contest. (Congregation applauds)
Jesus crushed Satan's head with His foot. He bruised his head. And He once and for all, forever defeated and dethroned and demoralized our enemy. One translation says, "He paralyzed him and rendered him powerless". But thank God. He didn't even stop there. He went over and ripped the keys of death and hell out of Satan's hands. And He grabbed Satan by the nap of his neck and He began to slowly drag him down through the corridors of Hell. All beat up and bruised because He wanted to make sure that every single demon saw very clearly that Jesus was indeed the undisputed Champion of all time! Amen?"
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 3:35:25 PM
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pblondeau46
Posts: 6
Joined: 5/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
quote:
ORIGINAL: theoPh.D
Certainly nothing that can be considered Christian. Rather, it is self-interested "all about me" therapy
I would call it "practical ways for a person to walk out their faith journey." Practical application is seriously missing in many churches. There is a need for people to understand HOW to walk out scripture. How it applies to their own lives.
How about reading the bible and figuring it out.
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 3:40:14 PM
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pblondeau46
Posts: 6
Joined: 5/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
"This is my Bible. I am who it says I am. I have what it says I have. I can do what it says I can do." Objections?
Yup. I'd much rather it be "This is God's message. I am who He says I am. I have what He says I have. I can do what He says I can do." The Bible is not a book of magic words to get quicker seating at restraunts or get passed over for tax audits, it is God's message of salvation, his commandments to us. The Bible is not the source, God is.
I agree...........
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 4:08:23 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1164
Status: offline
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"I believe one of the main ways that we grow in favor is by declaring it.”-The Joel Show
By way of comparison (regarding favor) SCRIPTURE says,
Prov 3:1-7
1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
There is absolutely NO scriptural basis for “growing in favor”. We either have it or we don’t. We obtain favor with God the moment we accept His plan of Salvation through Jesus Christ. Further more....
Acts 10:34-35
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Rom 2:11
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Eph 6:9
9 And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.
Col 3:25
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 7:26:31 PM
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christiancapitalist
Posts: 38
Joined: 4/15/2005
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without going into any ditches, i do agree somewhat with our words. my pastor once saide, "When the mouth speaks, the brain shuts up and listens." I know that when I'm tempted to sin, I 'll start to recite verses. to me, it's not enough just to read them, or say them in my head. i need to speak them. when i speak them, i remind myslef of who i am in christ. i remind myself that God says i can triumf over temptation.
As well, when my is down, i'll get her to recite verses with me. I'l ask her, "Does God promise to take care of us? i'll make her say yes. The bible says if my God is for me, then who can be against me. it's not that our words on their own have power. it's that our words remind of, and show if we believe, what God has promised us.
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My God can beat up your god
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/19/2005 11:10:58 PM
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AQuietPlace
Posts: 13
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: southeast USA
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bzirk said: *BTW, I agree with your assessment -- at least from the three sermons I've read. But I'm going to read many more. So far I do not think Joel Osteen is a teacher. He is more along the lines of an encourager/motivational speaker. He is not instructive in the way of a teacher at all. Not from what I've seen. I do think he does a great job of encouraging people. He has the good ol' boy demeanor down to a tee, and I'm not knocking that at all, because sometimes that is what gets through to people. Plus, I think he's a genuine good ol' boy. So I don't consider that a bad thing. *
I appreciate that comment because it seems to recognize that Joel Osteen does not claim to be the be-all. Lakewood's ministry is not a one-man show. It appears that the leadership team utilizes Joel as an encourager, and for bringing in the seekers. Certainly you all have not failed to notice the other teaching that goes on there. Dr. Paul Osteen currently has online an outline to be downloaded for his teaching on sexual purity. What do you think of that? Joel is only part of the ministry. It seems inappropriate to judge the entire ministry only by Osteen's sermons to the masses. Consider Jesus and the Beatitudes: Wasn't that feel good stuff only, to encourage a weary beaten-down crowd? And how would Jesus' sermon on the mount be judged these days, considering that it needed to be privately intrepreted for the disciples to make any sense it?
Re: the Lakewood/Osteen ministry, why denigrate an effort that is doing more harm than good, particularly with regard to newcomers or people returning to worship who had given up on churches and the frequently found condemning spirits there? Where does that spirit of condemnation come from? What's the source of condemnation? Intrerestingly, some posters discussing the sermon titles skipped the first two categories and first three sermons. Why? In a great hurry to get to the *bad* stuff that *needed* condeming?
Is the Lakewood/Osteen ministry pushing people away from Christ, or does it simply perhaps have some emphasis with which some individuals might disagree, just as the Baptists tend to emphasize baptism more than some think it should be emphasized, and the Pentecostals emphasize gifts like tongues, etc., more than some think should be the case, etc., etc.?
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Zephaniah 3.17
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/20/2005 7:32:27 AM
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cjwpastor
Posts: 476
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quote:
Consider Jesus and the Beatitudes: Wasn't that feel good stuff only, to encourage a weary beaten-down crowd?
Far from it, actually. The beatitudes, relating spiritual truths that can be difficult at times to comprehend, were far from "feel good stuff only" and if meant to encourage a weary crowd they had the opposite effect. I'm currently working on a study of the Beatitudes and would be happy to share on them in another thread if you'd like, but suffice it to say, it was not a message of encouragement.
I don't have time to repond to the rest of your post but will when I am able.
God bless
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/20/2005 11:26:54 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1164
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quote:
ORIGINAL: grizzly_bear
I'm sorry to hear that some of you are missing ut on the favor of God. And, yes, speaking God's favor over your life and circumstance has an amazing effect.
Please show us the scripture to back your doctrine.
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Joel Osteen? - 5/20/2005 12:32:34 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1442
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: grizzly_bear
I'm sorry to hear that some of you are missing ut on the favor of God. And, yes, speaking God's favor over your life and circumstance has an amazing effect.
Please show us the scripture to back your doctrine.
It's the Gospel according to COPELAND. Someone whose theology Mr Osteen follows almost word (of faith) for word
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. I also believe words spoken from true believers have power not from us but from Christ if it is in accordance to His will. We are shown this throughout the Bible ie. Christ spoke and it happened (insert any number of examples here from Paul to Elijah). 
