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Fritzpw_Admin -> Divorce - One Stop Thread (11/28/2005 3:47:39 PM)

This thread is being created in an attempt to condense the numerous threads on the topic.

When is divorce an acceptable option?

What does God think about divorce?

Is divorce a sin?

Does divorce make a person ineligible for ministry?

Engage in these and similar topics regarding divorce.



neuronstatic -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (11/29/2005 10:44:36 AM)

When is divorce an acceptable option? When one spouse's heart is hardened to the point that they commit grievous offenses and do not repent such as in sexual immorality and abandonment.

What does God think about divorce? God hates divorce. Divorce was created for human's hardened hearts. It is a product of the fall. But even God "divorced" Himself from His people in the OT. God views divorce as yet another facet of fallen human existence. In our final state in heaven there won't be any need for divorce because there will be marriage.

Is divorce a sin? Divorce is not the sin. Sin causes divorce. Divorce is the process of dissolving the marriage covenant in final ways once one or both spouses abandondend the covenant and dissolved it.

Does divorce make a person ineligible for ministry? Not in and of itself. It depends on the individual and the circumstances. When God restores a repentant sinner, the past is forgiven and forgotten by God. Neither should we impost additional penalties beyond the justice God has required and levied.



tafkam -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (11/29/2005 10:48:31 AM)

Neuronstatic, you've got guts. I wholeheartedly agree with your post, and I hope you're prepared for the onslaught that's bound to come your way![;)]



neuronstatic -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (11/29/2005 11:17:42 AM)

It's not about guts or confrontation or any human condition. It is about truth and proclaiming truth of God's word in its entireity, not just the bits people pick out for their pet theological projects to spread in false teaching by the Christian Pharisees.



Expos4ever -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (11/29/2005 11:32:13 AM)

When is divorce an acceptable option? I agree with neuronstatic's answer in part. I also think that divorce is "acceptable" in the arguably quite rare cases where 2 people make a "bad" choice to marry because of lack of competence or necessary life skills (however, the presence of children would be a strong consideration against the position I am taking). I suspect this position will be strongly contested, but I think that some human errors are matters of competence, not matters of moral failure. I am not talking about a situation where people, who were genuinely "in love" experience a dry spot. Although I have not been down that road, I will humbly suggest that the fact that they were really in love at one point, indicates that the marriage can be made to work. I am instead thinking about confused 18-year olds who really are trying to make a responsible decision, and yet end up married to someone that they have no points of connection with. I realize that some will argue that God can make such marriages work happily, or that God wants the couple to honor their commitment, even if they remain unhappy for the rest of their lives. Fine, we can discuss this.

What does God think about divorce? Mostly agree with neuronstatic, but will add that "incompetence" and not "sin" can be involved in some "bad" marriage decisions. So, while I know this may elicit even more vigorous response than neuronstatic's position, frankly I am not sure that divorce in such cases goes against the will of God.

Is divorce a sin?: Most of the time but not always.

Does divorce make a person ineligible for ministry? Lest ye think I am a hopeless "liberal", I will say that divorce should probably make a person ineligible for ministry. Even if one can accept my "marriages are (rarely, but sometimes) mistakes of competence" position, that still doesn't mean the person who leaves such a marriage by divorce is suitable for ministry. If a person can make such a serious mistake of judgment in marriage choice, he/she probably needs to be the recipient of ministry, not the provider of it.



neuronstatic -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (11/29/2005 11:47:01 AM)

Well, I do appreciate the well thought out, well articulated, and considerate post from Expos4ever.

I do disagree on the eligibility for ministry position part though.

Just for discussion, I have a thought for you Expos4ever. Consider that a man who was married for 18 years in Christian marriage, focused on God, in excellent standing in his church, and was a loving father. But then was cheated on in secret by his wife, she confessed, he attempted to reconcile, but his wife was hardened to her sin so far that she left the church and divorced him anyway.

It is obvious that the man was not perfect. No one is. And apparently the wife was unhappy enough to be led away by temptation and gave in to sexual sin. But he was trying to make it work.

Now here is the conundrum I have. What in this man's character or actions makes the man unsuitable? Was it his living 18 years trying to do his best to care for his wife? Was it his 16 years trying to be a godly father? Was it his understanding of the daily struggles of everyone in all facets of human existence so that he can genuinely understand those that struggle? Or is it merely his wife's sin that you would now hold against him?

So before you consider that someone made a "serious mistake of judgment in marriage choice", consider first that for over 2 decades someone made the obivous right decision in a marriage choice. And also consider that the man has no control over other's actions. Only his own.

I just think that it is extremely short sighted to say "when someone divorces they are obviously not fit for ministry".

One last point. When I went through all of that, those in ministry that told me "you just need to pray harder" and "God will see you through it", and yet spoke with no practical experience in the matter of what I was going through were not equipped to even begin to deal with what I went through. My senior pastor helped immensely because he had seen so much of it. The only other people that really helped were those that had gone through it and were ministering to me.

Think about that. I don't want a medical instructor who never lifted a scalpel to perform open heart surgery on me. They may know the instructions, but they don't have any experience in applying them.



northstar -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (11/29/2005 11:59:02 AM)

Is divorce an option?
No...but...it's the inevitible remarriage that is the bigger problem imo. Divorce is one thing, but it generally leads to the person feeling that they are free to remarry. Therefore, to save the problem of remarriage, don't divorce in the first place.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians that the wife is not to leave her husband but if she does she must remain single or be reconciled, and that the husband must not divorce his wife. I don't see how it can get any plainer than that.

Jesus said that to marry after divorce, or to marry someone who is divorced is to commit adultery...regardless of the reason for the divorce in the first place.

So yes, God hates divorce, no we shouldn't do it...but IF we find ourselves in that situation the Bible is clear that we must remain single or be reconciled with our original spouse.

Somehow I think that makes the so called 'adultery' exception clause easier to forgive, when the only other option is to remain single!

I do know a few people whose husbands/wives left them, and they have chosen to remain single based on Jesus and Paul both saying that to remarry is to commit adultery.
They couldn't help the divorce, but they are making the right choice based on their situation as it currently is. They are doing what the Bible says, and forgiving their spouse, and leaving the door open for reconciliation...

God bless...



Expos4ever -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (11/29/2005 12:00:51 PM)

Hello Neuronstatic:

I cannot disagree with what you are saying. I firmly believe that only God and the person going through the particular situation really know whether the divorce was really "caused" by the other party. Obviously, sometimes it really is just one person's "fault". So if the innocent person searches his/her own heart and concludes that he/she does not bear significant responsibility for the divorce, then I cannot see how such a person should be disqualified. As you imply, such a person will have the experience to minister to those who will experience marital difficulties in the future.



qtpuh2tme -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (11/29/2005 12:13:42 PM)

quote:

One last point. When I went through all of that, those in ministry that told me "you just need to pray harder" and "God will see you through it", and yet spoke with no practical experience in the matter of what I was going through were not equipped to even begin to deal with what I went through.


This is laughably (not laughing, here) true for SOooo many churches. Unless a church actually has a licensed, marriage & family therapist (with a proven track record) on staff, pastors, elders, etc. are simply not suitably equipped for the task of counseling those marriages that have undergone serious breaches and are in deep do-do. I have seen and experienced the great harm that comes from ill-equipped Christian counsel.

After a personal, in-depth 7-year study of God's Word regarding relationship - marriage, divorce & re-marriage, my main studies - my personal conclusions are basically the same as Neuron's.

For whatever reasons - and I have my own thoughts about them - the "Christian church" has added on much human "Law" to God's views and Word. In regards to divorce, it is just one amoung the many "add on's." This proclivity to 'add on' is, imo, all about "works," and severely harms the truth of His GRACE. It is also my opinion that the harming of His Grace is the THE sin that grieves God's Spirit more than any other. It IS denying the work of Christ.



momfree -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (11/29/2005 12:16:41 PM)

nstar...i am guessing you throw out the parts that say....

If anyone divorces a wife and marries another (except for porneia which is sexual sin NOT fornication prior to marriage) he commits adultery....so I guess that "clause" is non existant for you?

Also, I'm assuming you don't believe the "But if the unebeliever departs, let him, you are NO LONGER UNDER BONDAGE since God has called us to peace. Or is it "your" interpreation and that of the couple false teachers i've read articles from are saying that "not under bondage" doesn't mean you are free to remarry.

I guess we'll agree to disagree on these two points and your/my intepretation...but I wanted to clarify so I understood your position better.



neuronstatic -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (11/29/2005 12:18:19 PM)

Agreed Expos4ever. It really is a serious consideration for every individual in their lives as to all their sins and misgivings. For example, trusting the church funds and budget to someone who always seems to be in financial trouble would be a really bad move. However, if that person had long ago had serious distress with their finances, but learned better, and has demonstrated their abilities to manage finances, then they just might be the best person for the job.

Similarly, if a divorced man demonstrates through his life and witness that he is in a right standing with God, his past should not be the deciding factor.

But again, it depends on individuals. There is no way to make a sweeping statement that eveyone who is divorced is unfit for ministry leadership and nor is it valid to say someone who has never been divorced is necessarily fit for ministry leadership. It is simply one other facet of the person to consider. But it is not their damnation.

A thought just occurs to me now. You can know the quality of something by its testing. An untested product may break under stress. But the tested products have shown to be able to withstand the stresses they have been tested with.



TimothyTwo226 -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (11/29/2005 12:32:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: qtpuh2tme

quote:

One last point. When I went through all of that, those in ministry that told me "you just need to pray harder" and "God will see you through it", and yet spoke with no practical experience in the matter of what I was going through were not equipped to even begin to deal with what I went through.


This is laughably (not laughing, here) true for SOooo many churches. Unless a church actually has a licensed, marriage & family therapist (with a proven track record) on staff, pastors, elders, etc. are simply not suitably equipped for the task of counseling those marriages that have undergone serious breaches and are in deep do-do. I have seen and experienced the great harm that comes from ill-equipped Christian counsel.



This is all too true...The reason my former pastor advised my former spouse to divorce me was his lack of knowledge and compassion for those of us who decide to repent and go into recovery, and then pulling the plug because the healing took longer than 6 months...

Most churches just give up as they are ill-equipped and unable to work through the intricate issues that surround divorce, and usually take sides in the procedure (sometimes with good reason to protect the woman), but forget that the abuser/addict/alcoholic needs help also....

This never would have happened at my current "healthy" church, where the person who was unwilling to continue the marriage would have undergone church discipline, not the other way around....[8|]



landabee -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (11/29/2005 1:11:46 PM)

Well said, Kricket. [:)]



BtWthAPrice -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (11/29/2005 7:39:16 PM)

Neuron, I agree with everything you wrote here. DITTO. I can't say it better.
I don't think you are getting much flak here.[:)]



Jobstears -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (12/5/2005 5:05:11 PM)

Wow! those are a lot of heavy topics under one heading (Divorce) to cover in one thread.

I am interested in this topic of Does divorce make a person ineligible for ministry?, but am dismayed that only one responder in this thread used Scripture to back up his opinions.

How about some Scripture, folks?



Keabird -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (12/5/2005 5:22:42 PM)

Hi Jobstears [:)]

quote:

I am interested in this topic of Does divorce make a person ineligible for ministry?, but am dismayed that only one responder in this thread used Scripture to back up his opinions.

How about some Scripture, folks?


My understanding of Scripture is that the only instance where POSITIONS in the church - i.e. deacon or elder - are vetoed/disallowed is where someone is married to more than one wife. CURRENT tense. This of course, causes people to come back to the usual debate, well, is someone divorced and remarried, married to one wife or more? PLEASE don't answer that - go back and read the many discussions that have already taken place about that! LOL! I am just trying to respond to Jobstears here. So if the person has only one wife, then they are eligible for a POSITION of deaconship or eldership. Why do I emphasize "position"?

Because there are many gifts and other kinds of ministries referred to in Scripture. There are teachers, evangelists, healers, people who discern demons, encouragers - etc etc. People who have those kinds of ministries usually manifest giftings of the Spirit in those areas, and believe they have a calling from the Lord to minister that way. What "criteria" should be place on such people - or what criteria does the Bible place on them? None, as far as I can see, except that they are accountable to the Brethren - the Body. We know that "by their fruits you shall know them" and "he who keeps My commandments, he it is who loves Me" and the story of the sheep and the goats - feeding the poor, etc.

So Scripture only appears to put specified restrictions on those who are chosen to be elders or deacons in a church family group. Divorced people are not ruled out, because they are not married at all - or, for those who believe they ARE, if the divorced person has not remarried, then they still only have had one spouse and so are eligible.

For those who are divorced and remarried, why should they feel a need to become elders or deacons anyway? The Lord will still impart His gifts and calling to them, and they will still be used by Him, if they are willing. Having a title such as elder or deacon won't matter in the long run - what matters if that we are willing to serve Christ in whatever capacity.

Sherri

Edited for clarity.



Expos4ever -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (12/5/2005 5:31:57 PM)

Does divorce make one ineligible for ministry?

I have come to believe that the answer is no - the isolated fact of someone being divorced should not disqualify them from ministry.

Consider these words from Matthew 22:

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

I understand Jesus' statement that "all the Law and Prophets hang on these two commandments" to mean that considerations of what is most loving always "trump" any prescriptive Biblical "rule". So if the particulars of the specific situation dictate that the most loving thing would be allow a divorced person to be in the ministry, I think that God would bless that.

Don't like the fact that there is no "formula" or "rule" to apply to determine what is most loving? I would suggest that we need to face the reality of a complex world, where decisions cannot always be made by looking for a "one-liner" in the Scriptures.



neuronstatic -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (12/5/2005 10:25:37 PM)

The thing that would determine if someone were ineligible for ministry is if they are unrepentant in sin. Not if they have sinned in the past, and not if they are divorced (which is not sin) or have married after divorce (which is not sin).



teaspoon61 -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (12/5/2005 11:55:59 PM)

I think neuronstatic is right on the money in his first post to this thread!

What I want to focus on is the discussion about a divorced person being eligible for ministry. After reading the posts it seems like everyone is focusing on "ministry" as being the pastor of a church. Why do we focus on the position of pastor when we discuss ministry?
I am a firm believer that God can use us through all of the vast experiences we go through in this life. Whatever they may be.

God used a lot of divorce Christians to "minister" to me as I was going through my divorce. While my pastor was understanding, he could not help me as much as the divorced people in my church & Christian support group could. These ministers, not ordained, had been right where I was at one time. They were able to guide me through the most difficult time in my life. Many of them were right here on this website.



TimothyTwo226 -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (12/6/2005 5:37:01 PM)

Only if the person wishes to become a deacon, and that is debateable in some religions....the term "the husband of one wife" leads to two different discourses...

1. Either married to one woman for life

2. Having been divorced, never marrying again as some believe that one is being adulterous....

Depends on which school you listen to.....



Flintejae -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (12/6/2005 6:05:14 PM)

Or married to One wife at that time. :)



Consecrated2God -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (12/6/2005 8:09:31 PM)

Considering polygamy wasn't practiced in that culture, I don't think that's what he's talking about. I think he's talking about one wife period. The Old Testament priests had similar rules, so it wouldn't be far-fetched to think that if they couldn't marry divorced women that bishops and overseers couldn't, either.



neuronstatic -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (12/6/2005 8:29:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TimothyTwo226

Only if the person wishes to become a deacon, and that is debateable in some religions....the term "the husband of one wife" leads to two different discourses...

1. Either married to one woman for life

2. Having been divorced, never marrying again as some believe that one is being adulterous....

Depends on which school you listen to.....

Actually there is a third that you failed to mention.

3. Having been legally divorced (per the adultery clause given by Jesus in Matthew) and then married or not married, whichever.



DaveW -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (12/7/2005 7:55:13 AM)

If a person is not married they are not elgible for congregational leadership: the offices of elder or deacon. THis is regardless of why they are single, whether never married, widowed or divorced.



neuronstatic -> RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread (12/7/2005 8:50:03 AM)

You know Dave, I have thought about that too and I was for a while undecided. The literal reading of 1 Timothy 3:2 and 3:12 is in a current imperative. That is, it literally says "must be husband of one wife". Not was and not isn't.

Paul clearly wasn't married but he was an elder/minister. So then what does that mean? I am not sure. Also, it is unclear how many of the elders of the early church (i.e. the disciples and their appointees) were married or not. And also Paul made mention that a married man was divided in his attentions, he even used the example of a soldier and why soldiers need to concentrate on their work and not their civil life.

So then I have to think about the OP in the light of 1 Timothy 3 and other scripture. Given the above, I have to then wonder if the literal meaning were the correct one or not. I think it comes back to some common sense things. I do not think the literal meaning is correct because of the other statements made by Paul. And because of that, I think then that meaning behind "husband of one wife" most closely aligns with "not being sexually immoral". That is, the man cannot be adulterous or a fornicator.

With that said, I think it makes sense that those in authority are married. Because of the exhortation in 3:10 that these men be tested, I think the testing comes from being a husband and possibly even a father. I say that based on 3:15 which calls the church the "household of God". It seems to me then that one must be head of one household to be an elder/deacon in the other.

I think also of the practical side. A single man who has no children will not be able to fully appreciate and fully realize all the struggles the married and parents have to go through. So then again, I think there is further implication that "it is a really good idea" for the elders/deacons to be husbands and fathers so that they have experience to apply to matters of the "household of God".

And yet, that is not all there is in terms of ministry in the church. Clearly there are leadership positions, created by our human institutions of church, for things like worship leader, music director, women's groups, Bible study groups, youth groups, and a vast array of other needs for leadership. So then I think that there are some practical aspects to deal with there and that allows a wide array of people, both men and women, to fill those roles.

While I hold this opinion, I would never assert that I know 100% for sure. But I think it is for me, the closest interpretation that I can find that holds true with other scripture.



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