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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/31/2008 9:48:42 AM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
It takes two to get married. It takes two to get divorced. One person may have more reasons to get divorced, but that doesn't make them innocent on all accounts. They do have some amount, however small, of guilt towards the destruction of the marriage.
quote:
i cant agree with that. It only takes one to get divorced. We are all sinners of course, imperfect, we all make mistakes. Why should someone feel guilty when they were deserted by a spouse?
Was one spouse always honoring God and trying to please their mate at all times?
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/31/2008 10:34:17 AM
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hnt
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No one can please everyone all the time. No one can serve everyone all the time.
I'm sure everyone could find something in their lifes that doesn't live up to scripture. I think the repentance of things may come in time. There are people that no matter how well you are serving them, and how well you are honoring them....even in their spouse's defination of the terms....will still leave and divorce. Drinkers will still drink, Porn addicts will still do their thing...even if loved, honored and care for to the best of the families ability. I can see how people could take offense to the statement personally.
Things will be reveiled in time, and those that automatically tell these people that they must repent NOW...aren't being realistic! Their timing is off, and before people say they must mention it right away the bible speaks of timing as well. Individuals need to deal with the pain, and for lack of a better term allowed to come up for air before other items are laid upon them. They need compassion, prayer and empathy. Other things of importance will be reveiled in time.
Do we all have things that we need to repent of? I do believe we do. WHen it comes to an unrepentant spouse that would not cooperate or help themselves? I think for most they need to learn how to pray for that person, and they need to allow God to help them with the anger that will surface. Chances are good that the unrepentant spouse will attempt to hurt them more once they leave - or are kicked out - and they will need to learn to leave things in God's hands, and allow him to take care of things for them. During that struggle most people will have additional things to repent of.
The spouse that is left will battle of all types of things, and those things we must repent of. I think items within the relationship may come to everyone in time that may not have been what God would wish of them.
We all have to repent for all kinds of things with life. None of us are better than the other - even those that are divorced are NOT less than those that never will do that. We had a lady that was abandon by her spouse, and she was left to raise her boys. She said she had things to repent of, but it wasn't what most may think of. She couldn't have done anything to stop him I don't think. He was a broken soul that refused any love, help...or anything else of substance. All you can do is pray and leave it God's hands. Does everyone has to pray for repentance of what they may not have done within the marriage to save it? Not in all cases, because even the bible speaks of those that will do what they wish and no one is going to stop them.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/31/2008 12:10:33 PM
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Roberta_
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Admitting that both parties need repentance does not equate condoning abusive marriages.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/31/2008 8:01:49 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hnt
No one can please everyone all the time. No one can serve everyone all the time.
I'm sure everyone could find something in their lifes that doesn't live up to scripture. I think the repentance of things may come in time. There are people that no matter how well you are serving them, and how well you are honoring them....even in their spouse's defination of the terms....will still leave and divorce. Drinkers will still drink, Porn addicts will still do their thing...even if loved, honored and care for to the best of the families ability. I can see how people could take offense to the statement personally.
you said it very well. none of us are perfect. It is quite odd that some who are the abused party are told they must "repent". we all need to repent at times, most of us every day of something! But the spouse who is demolishing the marriage is the one who needs to repent in that situation.
Things will be reveiled in time, and those that automatically tell these people that they must repent NOW...aren't being realistic! Their timing is off, and before people say they must mention it right away the bible speaks of timing as well. Individuals need to deal with the pain, and for lack of a better term allowed to come up for air before other items are laid upon them. They need compassion, prayer and empathy. Other things of importance will be reveiled in time.
Do we all have things that we need to repent of? I do believe we do. WHen it comes to an unrepentant spouse that would not cooperate or help themselves? I think for most they need to learn how to pray for that person, and they need to allow God to help them with the anger that will surface. Chances are good that the unrepentant spouse will attempt to hurt them more once they leave - or are kicked out - and they will need to learn to leave things in God's hands, and allow him to take care of things for them. During that struggle most people will have additional things to repent of.
The spouse that is left will battle of all types of things, and those things we must repent of. I think items within the relationship may come to everyone in time that may not have been what God would wish of them.
We all have to repent for all kinds of things with life. None of us are better than the other - even those that are divorced are NOT less than those that never will do that. We had a lady that was abandon by her spouse, and she was left to raise her boys. She said she had things to repent of, but it wasn't what most may think of. She couldn't have done anything to stop him I don't think. He was a broken soul that refused any love, help...or anything else of substance. All you can do is pray and leave it God's hands. Does everyone has to pray for repentance of what they may not have done within the marriage to save it? Not in all cases, because even the bible speaks of those that will do what they wish and no one is going to stop them.
well said.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/31/2008 8:04:37 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
It takes two to get married. It takes two to get divorced. One person may have more reasons to get divorced, but that doesn't make them innocent on all accounts. They do have some amount, however small, of guilt towards the destruction of the marriage.
quote:
i cant agree with that. It only takes one to get divorced. We are all sinners of course, imperfect, we all make mistakes. Why should someone feel guilty when they were deserted by a spouse?
Was one spouse always honoring God and trying to please their mate at all times?
No. Nor do any of us walk on water. I have known of a spouse who went to her abusive husband and apologized for EVERYTHING she could think of that she had ever done wrong. She did it several times. No response from her verbally and emotionally abusive husband. He just said "i want a divorce".....she is the one who filed, for her never would. He simply repeated over and over "i dont love you, I want a divorce" and the abuse continued. she finally filed on him. She has nothing to repent of in the matter
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 5/31/2008 8:07:55 PM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
It takes two to get married. It takes two to get divorced. One person may have more reasons to get divorced, but that doesn't make them innocent on all accounts. They do have some amount, however small, of guilt towards the destruction of the marriage.
quote:
i cant agree with that. It only takes one to get divorced. We are all sinners of course, imperfect, we all make mistakes. Why should someone feel guilty when they were deserted by a spouse?
Was one spouse always honoring God and trying to please their mate at all times?
No. Nor do any of us walk on water. I have known of a spouse who went to her abusive husband and apologized for EVERYTHING she could think of that she had ever done wrong. She did it several times. No response from her verbally and emotionally abusive husband. He just said "i want a divorce".....she is the one who filed, for her never would. He simply repeated over and over "i don't love you, I want a divorce" and the abuse continued. she finally filed on him. She has nothing to repent of in the matter
It sounds like she did do quite a bit of repenting.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/1/2008 7:36:35 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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a woman shouldnt have to grovel in front of her husband over every minor mistake she has made to save a marriage. this isnt marriage, its slavery. and it that case it did no good.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/1/2008 7:37:55 PM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
a woman shouldn't have to grovel in front of her husband over every minor mistake she has made to save a marriage. this isn't marriage, its slavery. and it that case it did no good.
me thinks you have a whole 'nother idea about what repentance really is.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/1/2008 7:50:07 PM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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why do you think I dont know what repentance is? actually we are off topic. repentence is admitting you are wrong before God . Its agreeing with God that you are a sinner. next question.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/2/2008 12:58:20 AM
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blessednw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
a woman shouldn't have to grovel in front of her husband over every minor mistake she has made to save a marriage. this isn't marriage, its slavery. and it that case it did no good.
me thinks you have a whole 'nother idea about what repentance really is.
Groveling? True repentance is not groveling, no way. True repentance is an honest admission of one's sin, missing of the mark. Knowing that that explosiveness on your part was not honoring to your mate or the Lord. Admitting that the worrying and nagging is not what God desires for them. Acknowledging that the lack of faith and fellowship with the Lord is proving to be a burden to the family. Recognizing our own behavior and if it is in line with what the Lord lays out for us in His word, promising enablement by the Spirit.
I would say that a woman's repentance for the times she was in the flesh, not pursuing godly behavior, and trying not to blame her husband for her own sin...."HE WAS BAD so I COULDN"T HELP MYSELF!" kind of things........
is different from feeling that one must take "all the blame" for the FAILURE of the marriage. What a heavy. I think "failure" is the wrong word. A better word is RESIGNATION to "giving up" on each other's commitment before God. Each one has a part in that, unless of course someone does not "give up" on their commitment to God.
The repentance I encourage is the kind of repentance that says, "Search me oh God and know my heart, because I do not know my own heart oftentimes. " This kind of repentance says...
You know, I've just been HURT, and OFFENDED and angry and ready to leave the country or pray for an early death or tempted to commit adultery or wanting to kill my spouse or just want to get shock treatment or become an alcoholic or .............................some thing extreme to take away my hurt and frustration, and so I could not see my own wrongness (since I am the one that is hurt and offended)
SO.....
Maybe I should think about at least some of what my spouse has said, even in anger and pray about the things. Is there anything that is true? Is there anything at all that may have been very difficult for them because I was expecting perfection or complete understanding for my preference 24/7? Was I blind to what was happening to them? Did I pray for them? Did I condemn them without the benefit of knowing their heart completely? What is in my own heart Lord?
And, if the Holy Spirit should point things out, that seeker can agree with Him about certain sins, (not just generally being a sinner for initial salvation entrance as a son, but because one is aware of missing the mark, after becoming a believer), and repent (turn around) and ask forgiveness of God and others that were sinned against.
This can bring down a wall of hostility, at least on the part of one person in the estranged couple, and put that person in a place to begin to pray more out of an unselfish desire to see that offensive, sinning spouse turn back to righteousness and obedience to God.
This is not impossible. This is not legalism. This is not earning salvation. This is what walking in humility and obedience should be like, "the normal christian life" We are to live a repentant lifestyle, that is avoid sin, yet if and as soon as it happens, hopefully having been ****ed in conscience, turning to God, agreeing with Him and accepting His cleansing and asking Him to change us to be more like Him.
In this life, we will always have some sort of struggle with our flesh, but we are also to be winning our battles, by His careful and kind discipline, according to the Scriptures. Hopefully we learn from our mistakes and from being changed from glory to glory.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/2/2008 9:27:24 AM
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TATERBUGLETTE
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I would say that a woman's repentance for the times she was in the flesh, not pursuing godly behavior, and trying not to blame her husband for her own sin...."HE WAS BAD so I COULDN"T HELP MYSELF!" kind of things........
is different from feeling that one must take "all the blame" for the FAILURE of the marriage. What a heavy. I think "failure" is the wrong word. A better word is RESIGNATION to "giving up" on each other's commitment before God. Each one has a part in that, unless of course someone does not "give up" on their commitment to God.
The repentance I encourage is the kind of repentance that says, "Search me oh God and know my heart, because I do not know my own heart oftentimes. " This kind of repentance says...
You know, I've just been HURT, and OFFENDED and angry and ready to leave the country or pray for an early death or tempted to commit adultery or wanting to kill my spouse or just want to get shock treatment or become an alcoholic or .............................some thing extreme to take away my hurt and frustration, and so I could not see my own wrongness (since I am the one that is hurt and offended)
SO.....
Maybe I should think about at least some of what my spouse has said, even in anger and pray about the things. Is there anything that is true? Is there anything at all that may have been very difficult for them because I was expecting perfection or complete understanding for my preference 24/7? Was I blind to what was happening to them? Did I pray for them? Did I condemn them without the benefit of knowing their heart completely? What is in my own heart Lord?
i dont entirely disagree with you. But i dont fully agree either.. A rebellious spouse can be incredibly cruel . It happens. If I've prayed and asked Gods forgivness for my faults, and asked my spouse, then my conscience is clear before Jesus, by His grace alone! To go down a long list of "did i do this right, or wrong" ....well you need to see things as they really happened, but you dont need to spend time taking mental inventory of EVERYTHING done. It serves no purpose. "sorry i burned dinner on October 12th, 1987"...that sort of thing. It needs to be being honest before God but not a beating up myself session for being human.
< Message edited by TATERBUGLETTE -- 6/2/2008 12:02:35 PM >
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 6/6/2008 3:31:58 AM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TATERBUGLETTE
i don't entirely disagree with you. But i don't fully agree either.. A rebellious spouse can be incredibly cruel . It happens. If I've prayed and asked Gods forgiveness for my faults, and asked my spouse, then my conscience is clear before Jesus, by His grace alone! To go down a long list of "did i do this right, or wrong" ....well you need to see things as they really happened, but you don't need to spend time taking mental inventory of EVERYTHING done. It serves no purpose. "sorry i burned dinner on October 12th, 1987"...that sort of thing. It needs to be being honest before God but not a beating up myself session for being human.
You're right. God just wants honest repentance and not self-bashing.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 3:18:29 PM
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Saulomo
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If married in the church as christians, everyone in the church has prayed to God for the marriage to succeed. Still, why does Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-christians?
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 3:51:02 PM
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dontbelonghere
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Because we're people, not gods. And by the very nature of being people, we fall short of perfection.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 4:03:41 PM
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Kath
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2008 10:05:53 AM
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iwillfearnoevil
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saulomo
If married in the church as christians, everyone in the church has prayed to God for the marriage to succeed. Still, why does Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-christians?
there are actually differences ... many factors are involved ... check out barna group's divorce studies at barna.org
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2008 12:22:38 PM
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Knolt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Expos4ever
Does divorce make a person ineligible for ministry? Lest ye think I am a hopeless "liberal", I will say that divorce should probably make a person ineligible for ministry. Even if one can accept my "marriages are (rarely, but sometimes) mistakes of competence" position, that still doesn't mean the person who leaves such a marriage by divorce is suitable for ministry. If a person can make such a serious mistake of judgment in marriage choice, he/she probably needs to be the recipient of ministry, not the provider of it.
It seems we want people in ministry to be perfect.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2008 8:49:00 PM
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Marcus.
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This is a response to a posting in the Homosexuality One Stop thread.
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
Will putting someone in jail bring a marriage closer together?
Surely some quality time with a marriage counselor or pastor would be more constructive than government intrusion into a family matter.
I agree that the desire to work the problems out is a better choice but when that fails you need something to cause folks to stop and think about what they are doing. The knowledge that they will be fined heavily or be penalized severely for any adultery during a divorce proceeding would help stem many people's desire to look elsewhere. As it is there is little to give pause to any considering adultery. No public condemnation. No civil penalties. Even few churches or families rebuke the offending person. Nothing.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/4/2008 11:03:42 AM
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hnt
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quote:
As it is there is little to give pause to any considering adultery. No public condemnation. No civil penalties. Even few churches or families rebuke the offending person. Nothing.
Few people are held accountable for anything that should be repented of within marriage. They have blinders on for alot of issues nowdays.
So you want the government to do it for us? I'm confused.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/4/2008 11:40:15 PM
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Marcus.
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I want the government to be part of stemming the tide with civil penalties such as fines the adulterer has to pay the other spouse and loss of visitation of the children for starters .
Churches actually holding folks accountable and not marrying the divorced is another. Rebuking believers who has fallen into sin as we are called to is another.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/5/2008 1:46:17 AM
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Roberta_
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Biblically speaking, is there a difference between an annulment and a divorce?
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/5/2008 11:29:59 AM
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hnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
I want the government to be part of stemming the tide with civil penalties such as fines the adulterer has to pay the other spouse and loss of visitation of the children for starters .
Churches actually holding folks accountable and not marrying the divorced is another. Rebuking believers who has fallen into sin as we are called to is another.
I don't that will become a reality. HECK look at the deadbeat parents, and how the government really doesn't do to much it alot of cases. When they do attempt to do anything it takes years, and even then it takes MORE years to maybe or maybe not collect anything.
The system is broken, and I just can't see how that will ever happen. You read in the newspapers all the time about cases that plain don't make sense. Its clear as day what is going on, but they are asked to hand over things that is almost impossible to do. Most people don't have the funds to keep going.
Some churches will hold people accountable, but most don't do that. I don't how to change that, but it would interesting to watch those that want to break that shell of denial down!
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/10/2008 2:58:05 AM
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Keabird
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Wow. Been a long time since I peeked at this thread, but quite surprised at the attitude of some towards divorced people.
We are ALL sinners. NONE of us are fit to minister if we are considering our own righteousness and lack of personal sin. It is by God's calling that REAL ministers are made - in whatever field they happen to be called to.
The apostle Paul knew this humility - there he was, going around throwing men and women into prison, and some of them died. The prisons back then were not the comfortable 3-meals-a-day, warm, bed-provided prisons that we offer prisoners nowadays. Paul made people suffer! Yet God called him RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT - and he became a minister of the Gospel. He was unable to bring back the people who had died at his hands though and he had to live with that the rest of his life, even as divorcees, adulterers, and other "sinners" (which counts us all) have to live with the mistakes/actions of the past.
Much as it may shock some people, God sometimes calls divorced people to ministry. He even blesses them while they do it! God does not have the callousness and remembrance of the past that we sinful people have. His call to us is based on His will and mercy, and provision for those who will hear - it could be a divorced person is the very person He wants to use.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/11/2008 12:21:32 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
We are ALL sinners. NONE of us are fit to minister if we are considering our own righteousness and lack of personal sin. It is by God's calling that REAL ministers are made - in whatever field they happen to be called to.
The apostle Paul knew this humility - there he was, going around throwing men and women into prison, and some of them died. The prisons back then were not the comfortable 3-meals-a-day, warm, bed-provided prisons that we offer prisoners nowadays. Paul made people suffer! Yet God called him RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT - and he became a minister of the Gospel. He was unable to bring back the people who had died at his hands though and he had to live with that the rest of his life, even as divorcees, adulterers, and other "sinners" (which counts us all) have to live with the mistakes/actions of the past.
Much as it may shock some people, God sometimes calls divorced people to ministry. He even blesses them while they do it! God does not have the callousness and remembrance of the past that we sinful people have. His call to us is based on His will and mercy, and provision for those who will hear - it could be a divorced person is the very person He wants to use.
I agree, but there is a difference between someone who was divorced against their will, and someone who treacherously divorced their spouse and abandoned their family, and has no desire to follow God’s will, obey Him, fulfill their vows and love as Christ loves the church the way we are commanded to, or even love our enemies for that matter.
I don’t see divorce as a one time sin… it is a state of rebellion remaining irreconcilable- hard hearted, harboring bitterness, unforgiveness and permanently cutting the other person off and judging them as unredeemable. As you said, we are ALL sinners and Jesus told us not to cast stones unless we are without sin, using the very example of an adulteress… yet some believe He actually gave that exception as grounds for divorce.
I find it kind of hypocritical that so many use the argument that they are “no worse of a sinner” for divorcing their spouse (while that’s completely true)… but justify their sin and claim they are forgiven by the same grace and mercy they refused and still refuse to give their spouse. They claim grace for themselves, but go back and use the law that we are not even under in the NT to divorce their spouse.
When we understand that God made marriage to be an earthly illustration of His covenant with us and His love for us, we can see how important it is to keep our covenant, even in the face of betrayal and a wayward spouse. The same way God remains faithful to us, in the midst of our unfaithfulness . Divorced people in the church can make a big impact, their lives can be a witness for Christ by keeping their covenant, remaining faithful to God and their spouse (whether they do or not), and showing the world how sacred marriage is to Him.
Sadly, this is a foreign concept in the church today and we are looking more and more like the world. We should stand apart and our divorce rate should be a fraction of the world’s, but today it is equal. All through the Sermon on the Mount Jesus raises the standards and tells us how we respond the opposite way of the world when someone betrays and mistreats us… what does not come natural- only in the supernatural ability He gives us and the love He enables us with.
Paul was punishing people, but he did not continue punishing them when he was converted. If we have “punished” our spouse by divorcing them… we do not have to continue punishing them with permanent payback. Like you said, God puts our sins in the past and doesn’t hold them against us… we should do the same for our spouse of all people.
If we murdered someone we cannot bring them back, but divorce is something we have the power to change. We can choose to obey and fulfill our vows… We can choose to not live in a “divorced” state, since it goes against all that Jesus stands for. He stands for unconditional love and forgiveness. He stands for humility and obedience to the point of making himself nothing and dying on a cross for the sins of others, when He was sinless. And because of this, the end result was Him being EXALTED!
So, we should be reflecting His love, His faithfulness, His mercy, His longsuffering…leaving the door to reconciliation open until death just like He does us. We can use divorce as an opportunity to be a light that gives glory to God… one that says even in the face of betrayal, I will love my spouse, forgive them, remain faithful to them and God, whether they love me back or not.
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 11/11/2008 12:47:59 PM >
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"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/11/2008 1:30:01 PM
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Keabird
Posts: 703
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I don’t see divorce as a one time sin… it is a state of rebellion remaining irreconcilable- hard hearted, harboring bitterness, unforgiveness and permanently cutting the other person off and judging them as unredeemable.
While the above may be true of some, it is not true of all. It certainly isn't true of me. I also know many people who haven't "cut off" their former spouse, but rather both endeavour to get along. Life is usually more complicated.
I've said before, and will again, that this these topics end up becoming about the letter of the law. God is above that, shown clearly with Jesus firmly pointing out that David disobeyed the law in order to get fed bread in the temple, and Jesus said the reason was that "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath". Therefore even Jesus makes exceptions.
Even so, there are many, many people who are living witnesses that God calls people to ministry after divorce - regardless of who was to blame at the time - who go on to either remarry or remain divorced and bring many to the Lord through their life and ministry - just as Paul did.
It does seem to me that for someone to say divorced people can't be in ministry, but not-divorced folks can, is to imply a position of superiority in regard to certain sin. In other words - this one's works are better than that one's works; this one has done this sin but this one hasn't - too bad what other sins the other one might have done. This, to me, flies in the face of what Jesus came to proclaim.
Therefore it is no surprise to me that God is blessing divorced people's ministries all over the world. We need to learn to love like HE does. | | |
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