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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/17/2008 10:38:28 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
And I have asked the before, but what if two unbelievers married, then divorced, and then married again and one or both came to Christ? Is that not forgiven?
Whether the divorce is forgiven or not- the first marriage still exists and is not dissolved by forgiveness... it is dissolved by death. 1cor7:39, Rom 7:2-3.
The same laws of marriage apply to unbelievers. There are scriptural examples of unbelievers marriages that God recognized... and we are even commanded to stay with an unbeliever if we are married to one, that they might be won over to the Lord by our example. So God clearly recognizes those marriages.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/17/2008 10:42:33 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
Nope, God is the arbitrator. We don't really know.
I don't believe God's Word is so ambiguous that we can't know the truth and I certainly don't believe He would leave us in the dark on a subject like this. If none of us can really know if we are in a valid marriage, that means many could really be fornicating and scripture says those fornicating will not inherit Heaven...so that's kind of scary.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 1:11:24 AM
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huckfinn327
Posts: 382
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsTracy72
quote:
Marriage has been manifest when one (nerver been married or widowed) man, and one (never been married or widowed) woman consent to and complete a public wedding ceremony.
Still not convinced. My grandmother was not given a choice in who she married. While she never divorced, I do have friends I went to high school with who were already in arranged marriages. One of them had a boyfriend all through high school, but had to marry the person who her parents chose for her. There was a public ceremony, and she did say "I do" but she didn't want to and couldn't say no.
I don't see that as a marriage blessed by God. Just the same, I don't see God blessing a marriage where one had no intention in staying in that marriage from the beginning and lied about it. So yes, both went through that public ceremony, but if one of them lied about their intentions, then is that really a marriage? The bible doesn't cover that.
MrsTracy72: You "labor" to find some kind of exception. You might note that pre-arranged marriage was the rule in the Mid-East from ancient times and it still remains valid in many large countries like India. It is a very legitimate form of the public wedding. (By the way the divorce/remarriage rate in India is very low) making prearranged marriage a very successful form of marriage. In this case the bride and groom "willing" forfeit the right to make a personal choice but willing elect their parents to be their chosers. Rebekah was chosen for Isaac by his father Abraham. Isaac dearly loved Rebekah.
Gen 24:67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.
You add the case of "fraud" to your list. Fraud is an illegal act and when proven makes the contract void. But keep in mind that Jacob was "defrauded" by Laban and married Leah instead of his choice, Rachel. But please note that God fully honored this fraudulent marriage ... Leah gave birth to both Judah and Levi. Jesus was the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. (Matt. 1: 1-16).
We are talking about the "Farmer" in our nursery rhyme: "The farmer takes a wife, the farmer takes a wife, hi-ho-the-dairy-O, the farmer takes a wife." Adam took Eve and she became his Wife.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
All for His Glory ... Huckfinn
_____________________________
NO-REMARRIAGE-THIS-SIDE-OF-DEATH .... JESUS TAUGHT CREATION MARRIAGE
www.jesusremarriagekeller.com
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 5:32:35 PM
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schupfNoodle
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
Show me Scripture, where it says, "If you have divorced due to your spouse leaving you or abusing you, and you have remarried, and you both are serving the Lord, that you need to divorce, and ask God for reconcilation with the abusive spouse."
Show me Scripture for that.....you cant SE.
Because you're beginning with the false pretext that what God calls adultery is a legal marriage. By definition adultery is an extramarital relationship where a person is having relations with someone they are not married to. You don't therefore "divorce" from adultery, you repent of it.
SealedEternal
Ok, so what are you saying? They have gone through a divorce, due to abuse or that spouse leaving them, and later they remarry a person who is a Christian, and they are serving the Lord together.....so they are to repent for this? Is that what your saying? Correct me if Im wrong, but thats what I gather that you are saying.
Scripture has been provided by keepingfaith.
1 Cor 7:10
10But to the married I give instructions, (J)not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
11(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
It means:
If the wife is separated from the abusive husband , she still has to remain unmarried. That means not marrying another, even though she's met a loving Christian guy.
Everyone knows we're not supposed to steal. But hey, I was not a Christian then and I stole my neighbor's car. When I turned to Christ ,I started using the car for missionary work and using the stolen car to serve the Lord. Becasue of it dozens have turned to Christ. Am I supposed to repent for the car now?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 8:17:57 PM
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huckfinn327
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quote:
(Original SchupfNoodle) Everyone knows we're not supposed to steal. But hey, I was not a Christian then and I stole my neighbor's car. When I turned to Christ ,I started using the car for missionary work and using the stolen car to serve the Lord. Becasue of it dozens have turned to Christ. Am I supposed to repent for the car now?
Luk 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
_____________________________
NO-REMARRIAGE-THIS-SIDE-OF-DEATH .... JESUS TAUGHT CREATION MARRIAGE
www.jesusremarriagekeller.com
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2008 8:20:01 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
again, totally incorrect. there are also cases such as sexual immorality and spouse leaving that dissolve the bond ... i realize you had no rebuttal for my two corrections of your "interpretations you made without leaving any facts" so it's just silly to keep asserting the same things
You must be using selective reading... because Sealed just addressed the 2 words "bound" and "not under bondage." And I also gave plenty of scriptural proof that your interpretation of that verse cannot be valid.
Why don't you provide an explanation as to why the "unbeliever leaving" exception didn't work for the man in Malachi 2:13-16 who treacherously divorced his wife? Not to mention it didn't work for her... she is STILL REFERRED TO AS HIS WIFE by covenant after divorce. And apparently he was an unbeliever ("not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit").
Jesus was speaking directly to unbelievers (the Pharisees) when He said "EVERYONE who divorces and marries another commits adultery."
Jesus Himself refutes the "unbeliever leaving" exception. I hope you are prepared with a dictionary in hand that gives a different definition for the word "EVERYONE", when you break the news to Jesus that He didn't know what He was talking about.
Luke 16:18
"EVERYONE who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
Could you also point to where Paul noted the exception for sexual immorality or did neither of them know what they were talking about? There is a pretty big difference between "a woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives...and "a woman is bound to her husband as long as he is not sexually immoral."
God's Word does not contradict itself, so any interpretation that forces it to contradict cannot be correct and is not drawn using valid hermeneutics. If God's Word does contradict itself, we don't stand a chance at figuring out the truth.
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 11/18/2008 10:04:34 PM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 3:07:52 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4479
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
You must be using selective reading... because Sealed just addressed the 2 words "bound" and "not under bondage." And I also gave plenty of scriptural proof that your interpretation of that verse cannot be valid.
you chose to reply to another part of my post ignoring that one. sealed did reply but you still can't get deny the words come from the same base word. ummm malachi 2 is addressing priests and not a specific man but reinforces the principle Paul taught that believers shouldn't be the ones leaving.
quote:
God's Word does not contradict itself, so any interpretation that forces it to contradict cannot be correct and is not drawn using valid hermeneutics. If God's Word does contradict itself, we don't stand a chance at figuring out the truth.
at this point you are being very selective in the scripture you are referring to. the Bible is made up of 66 books and one has study and pull things from all of them together. just as if one was studying something else. so when one scripture adds a condition (sexual immorality) and another does as well (unbelieving spouse leaving), you just can't not paste that down and pretend it doesn't exist. or claim it means something totally different when the words share the same base word. using your logic, you want one verse only from genesis that combines every single scripture on divorce/remarriage into one, and that's just not going to happen. if it was as easy as two becoming one, then there would not need to be any further discussion.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 8:39:32 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
sealed did reply but you still can't get deny the words come from the same base word.
I can and do deny that because that is false. The words are actually unrelated. "Douloō" mean to enslave, to be made a servant of, or being under servitude. "Deō" means to bind, fasten with chains, put under obligation of the law, or to be bound to a husband or wife. They are not from the same root, and very distinct in their meanings. Beyond that, the contexts are completely different because verse 39 is absolutely referring to the marriage bond, while verse 15 only says it is referring to living arrangements.
SealedEternal
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For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:18:58 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
ummm malachi 2 is addressing priests and not a specific man but reinforces the principle Paul taught that believers shouldn't be the ones leaving.
The beginning of Malachi 2 starts out reproofing priests; but what makes you think that verses 13-17 are addressed to priests only? After the statements to the priests there is a rebuke to the Israelites in general, and then the passage we are discussing comes up, so there is no reason to assume it was referring to priests. Even if it was, why are their divorces not freeing them from their marriage covenants, and if theirs don't; why assume that others do?
SealedEternal
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For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:38:18 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
Joined: 3/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
at this point you are being very selective in the scripture you are referring to. the Bible is made up of 66 books and one has study and pull things from all of them together.
Exactly my point. You're interpretations of a couple of verses directly contradict the countless ones I've been posting. Beyond that, your misinterpretation of one verse directly contradicts your misinterpretation of the other. Jesus said there is one exception only, yet you claim Paul had another that wasn't what He said was that only one. Beyond that, Jesus specifically said that a man who abandons his wife makes her commit adultery, while you claim Paul said it frees her from her marriage. So you not only contradict all of the verses on the topic, but contradict yourself as well.
Jesus specifically said in two of the three gospels that "EVERYONE" who divorces and remarries commits adultery, which you deny. Paul taught that it was adultery as well. Yet you take one verse where Jesus specifically said He was referring to a specific Old Covenant Law and misapply it to New Covenant people and cause Jesus to seemingly contradict His own teaching, and give one that is self refuting because adultery is both the sin one commits in divorce and remarriage and the allowance to do so according to you. Then you take a situation where Paul said that a believer is not under servitude to an unbeliever who refuses to dwell with him or her, but is bound to them for as long as they both shall live, and must remain unmarried or else reconcile with them, and claim it is allowing divorce and remarriage which it never states. And as I said earlier, your own loopholes contradict each other as well as the vast majority of the Bible on the subject.
SealedEternal
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For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 9:40:40 AM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4479
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
Yet you take one verse where Jesus specifically said He was referring to a specific Old Covenant Law
You're interpretations ... your own loopholes
i already posted on that subject, it seems you are selectively reading my posts ... and you can say "my interpretations" when they are the majority opinion today and the anti-remarriage opinion is a small fringe movement with other erraneous beliefs based on other fallacies such as women not wearing sneakers and shirts and that we should not celebrate Christmas. see http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html for a whole list of crazy interpretations.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 4:43:54 PM
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AbbyGrace
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I have to ask a question, if a man has divorced his wife, and not for adultery, but just for other reasons, should the wife remain faithful, and continue to pray for God to restore their marriage, even though he has divorced her?
And what about, the husband is the high priest of the home, and he divorced her, it was his choice and not hers, should she still pray for God to bring them back together, to restore them and for them to remarry?
I have already read all the verses, so dont post all of them, I just need a yes or no, and why.
Yes some verses, but not a page full of them SE, please? And has anyone been faced with this situation, and what was the out come of it?.
Thanks,
Abby
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Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." 
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 5:22:10 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7421
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
I have to ask a question, if a man has divorced his wife, and not for adultery, but just for other reasons, should the wife remain faithful, and continue to pray for God to restore their marriage, even though he has divorced her?
And what about, the husband is the high priest of the home, and he divorced her, it was his choice and not hers, should she still pray for God to bring them back together, to restore them and for them to remarry?
I have already read all the verses, so dont post all of them, I just need a yes or no, and why.
Why would we not pray for people to return to (or start living) Godly lives and have their marriages restored?
quote:
And has anyone been faced with this situation, and what was the out come of it?.
Thanks,
Abby
I can't get into that without discussing my own personal situation. Sorry.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 6:20:04 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3631
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
Scripture has been provided by keepingfaith.
1 Cor 7:10
10But to the married I give instructions, (J)not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
11(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
It means:
If the wife is separated from the abusive husband , she still has to remain unmarried. That means not marrying another, even though she's met a loving Christian guy.
Everyone knows we're not supposed to steal. But hey, I was not a Christian then and I stole my neighbor's car. When I turned to Christ ,I started using the car for missionary work and using the stolen car to serve the Lord. Becasue of it dozens have turned to Christ. Am I supposed to repent for the car now?
The problem with your analogy is that Duet. 24:1-4 specifically addresses this situation, and teaches exactly the opposite of what you, SE, and keepingfaith are teaching.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 10:11:31 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Scripture has been provided by keepingfaith.
1 Cor 7:10
10But to the married I give instructions, (J)not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
11(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
It means:
If the wife is separated from the abusive husband , she still has to remain unmarried. That means not marrying another, even though she's met a loving Christian guy.
Everyone knows we're not supposed to steal. But hey, I was not a Christian then and I stole my neighbor's car. When I turned to Christ ,I started using the car for missionary work and using the stolen car to serve the Lord. Becasue of it dozens have turned to Christ. Am I supposed to repent for the car now?
The problem with your analogy is that Duet. 24:1-4 specifically addresses this situation, and teaches exactly the opposite of what you, SE, and keepingfaith are teaching.
The problem with your reasoning is that it contains several inherent flaws. First of all you are assuming that New Covenant believers are under the Old Covenant Laws, yet neither you nor I are adhering to them. So why are we bound to this one particular Law yet free to not adhere to all of them? The answer is that we don't divorce and stone people anymore because true children of God have had the Spirit of the Law of love written on our hearts and minds and aren't therefore bound to the letter given to hard hearted unregenerate Israelites.
Romans 7:1-6 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Secondly, Deuteronomy 24 only permitted Old Covenant men to divorce their wives for a particular cause, which according to the text was he found her sexually unclean (fornication) when he married her. Those men were forbidden from taking them back if they married again. On the other hand Jesus said that these Old Covenant men who divorcd for reasons other than "fornication" were committing adultery to remarry, and making their wives commit adultery, which by definition meant that their divorces did not separate the marriage bond and their subsequent marriages were extramarital affairs. Obviously these men and women weren't forbidden from ending the adulterous relationships and returning to their true marriages, and the Law you appeal to never said they shouldn't.
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house"
Matthew 19:3-9 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for fornication, and marries another woman commits adultery." (TR)And the one who marries her who was put away commits adultery.
Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
This was a condemnation against the Old Covenant people who were not following the allowable cause in Deuteronomy 24, which made their divorces invalid and subsequent relationships adulterous. You must therefore properly distinguish between what God calls lawful divorces for Old Covenant people, and what He calls unlawful divorces that didn't dissolve the marriage bond but rather led to adulterous relationships. Obviously God would not forbid people from leaving relationships that He calls unlawful and returning to their lawful spouse.
Thirdly, Jesus said to His disciples afterward that all New Covenant people who divorce and remarry were committing adultery, so obviously none of them should be forbidden from ending their extramarital affairs and returning to their true spouses:
Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Matthew 19:10-12 His disciples said to Him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. But He said to them, Not all make room for this Word, but those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who made eunuchs of themselves for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. He who is able to receive, let him receive it.
The whole issue of Deuteronomy 24 is irrelevent to New Covenant people because we aren't under the Old Covenant, and beyond that Jesus said there is no exceptions for us, so for that reason also it doesn't apply. Adulterous relationships by definition are not legal marriages but rather sin, and therefore He is telling us that divorce cannot separate the marriage bond. Since according to Him our original marriage was never dissolved and the subsequent one was never a legitimate marriage, there is no restriction about returning to our true spouse and ending the extramarital affair, and thus His commandment to remain unmarried or else reconcile with our wayward spouse is not a false statement as you're trying to claim.
SealedEternal
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For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 10:42:29 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: schupfNoodle
quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
Show me Scripture, where it says, "If you have divorced due to your spouse leaving you or abusing you, and you have remarried, and you both are serving the Lord, that you need to divorce, and ask God for reconcilation with the abusive spouse."
Show me Scripture for that.....you cant SE.
Because you're beginning with the false pretext that what God calls adultery is a legal marriage. By definition adultery is an extramarital relationship where a person is having relations with someone they are not married to. You don't therefore "divorce" from adultery, you repent of it.
SealedEternal
Ok, so what are you saying? They have gone through a divorce, due to abuse or that spouse leaving them, and later they remarry a person who is a Christian, and they are serving the Lord together.....so they are to repent for this? Is that what your saying? Correct me if Im wrong, but thats what I gather that you are saying.
Scripture has been provided by keepingfaith.
1 Cor 7:10
10But to the married I give instructions, (J)not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
11(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
It means:
If the wife is separated from the abusive husband , she still has to remain unmarried. That means not marrying another, even though she's met a loving Christian guy.
Everyone knows we're not supposed to steal. But hey, I was not a Christian then and I stole my neighbor's car. When I turned to Christ ,I started using the car for missionary work and using the stolen car to serve the Lord. Becasue of it dozens have turned to Christ. Am I supposed to repent for the car now?
That's an excellent analogy, and ultimately most people who try to justify divorce and remarriage will make that fallacious argument. That even though God said doing so is immoral; since it all seemingly ended up for the better it's ok and God will bless it. Sin is always sin and rebelling against God is never a good thing regardless of whether we think we know better and can bring about good by continuing in it.
Let's assume that this person you used in your analogy is leading people to Christ using His stolen car. Then one day the police realize the car is stolen and arrest this man in front of all of these people he is ministering to. That could undermine everything he taught them because his actions speak louder than his words. Or he doesn't get caught, but the people somehow find out the truth about his car. Either they are going to assume that Christ is not necessarily opposed to theft, or they will conclude that He has no power to truly transform lives. Either way this man ends up slandering His name and undermining the entire gospel message.
SealedEternal
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For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 10:50:54 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3631
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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You have tried these same old arguments before and they still have more holes than Swiss cheese.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Scripture has been provided by keepingfaith.
1 Cor 7:10
10But to the married I give instructions, (J)not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
11(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
It means:
If the wife is separated from the abusive husband , she still has to remain unmarried. That means not marrying another, even though she's met a loving Christian guy.
Everyone knows we're not supposed to steal. But hey, I was not a Christian then and I stole my neighbor's car. When I turned to Christ ,I started using the car for missionary work and using the stolen car to serve the Lord. Becasue of it dozens have turned to Christ. Am I supposed to repent for the car now?
The problem with your analogy is that Duet. 24:1-4 specifically addresses this situation, and teaches exactly the opposite of what you, SE, and keepingfaith are teaching.
The problem with your reasoning is that it contains several inherent flaws. First of all you are assuming that New Covenant believers are under the Old Covenant Laws, yet neither you nor I are adhering to them. So why are we bound to this one particular Law yet free to not adhere to all of them? The answer is that we don't divorce and stone people anymore because true children of God have had the Spirit of the Law of love written on our hearts and minds and aren't therefore bound to the letter given to hard hearted unregenerate Israelites.
Romans 7:1-6 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Secondly, Deuteronomy 24 only permitted Old Covenant men to divorce their wives for a particular cause, which according to the text was he found her sexually unclean (fornication) when he married her. Those men were forbidden from taking them back if they married again. On the other hand Jesus said that these Old Covenant men who divorcd for reasons other than "fornication" were committing adultery to remarry, and making their wives commit adultery, which by definition meant that their divorces did not separate the marriage bond and their subsequent marriages were extramarital affairs. Obviously these men and women weren't forbidden from ending the adulterous relationships and returning to their true marriages, and the Law you appeal to never said they shouldn't.
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house"
Matthew 19:3-9 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for fornication, and marries another woman commits adultery." (TR)And the one who marries her who was put away commits adultery.
Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
This was a condemnation against the Old Covenant people who were not following the allowable cause in Deuteronomy 24, which made their divorces invalid and subsequent relationships adulterous. You must therefore properly distinguish between what God calls lawful divorces for Old Covenant people, and what He calls unlawful divorces that didn't dissolve the marriage bond but rather led to adulterous relationships. Obviously God would not forbid people from leaving relationships that He calls unlawful and returning to their lawful spouse.
Thirdly, Jesus said to His disciples afterward that all New Covenant people who divorce and remarry were committing adultery, so obviously none of them should be forbidden from ending their extramarital affairs and returning to their true spouses:
Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Matthew 19:10-12 His disciples said to Him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. But He said to them, Not all make room for this Word, but those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who made eunuchs of themselves for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. He who is able to receive, let him receive it.
The whole issue of Deuteronomy 24 is irrelevent to New Covenant people because we aren't under the Old Covenant, and beyond that Jesus said there is no exceptions for us, so for that reason also it doesn't apply. Adulterous relationships by definition are not legal marriages but rather sin, and therefore He is telling us that divorce cannot separate the marriage bond. Since according to Him our original marriage was never dissolved and the subsequent one was never a legitimate marriage, there is no restriction about returning to our true spouse and ending the extramarital affair, and thus His commandment to remain unmarried or else reconcile with our wayward spouse is not a false statement as you're trying to claim.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 11:44:13 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
You have tried these same old arguments before and they still have more holes than Swiss cheese.
And you've responded with unsubstantiated platitudes before, but they don't prove anything.
SealedEternal
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For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 2:39:43 PM
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AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Scripture has been provided by keepingfaith.
1 Cor 7:10
10But to the married I give instructions, (J)not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
11(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
It means:
If the wife is separated from the abusive husband , she still has to remain unmarried. That means not marrying another, even though she's met a loving Christian guy.
Everyone knows we're not supposed to steal. But hey, I was not a Christian then and I stole my neighbor's car. When I turned to Christ ,I started using the car for missionary work and using the stolen car to serve the Lord. Becasue of it dozens have turned to Christ. Am I supposed to repent for the car now?
The problem with your analogy is that Duet. 24:1-4 specifically addresses this situation, and teaches exactly the opposite of what you, SE, and keepingfaith are teaching.
The problem with your reasoning is that it contains several inherent flaws. First of all you are assuming that New Covenant believers are under the Old Covenant Laws, yet neither you nor I are adhering to them. So why are we bound to this one particular Law yet free to not adhere to all of them? The answer is that we don't divorce and stone people anymore because true children of God have had the Spirit of the Law of love written on our hearts and minds and aren't therefore bound to the letter given to hard hearted unregenerate Israelites.
Romans 7:1-6 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Secondly, Deuteronomy 24 only permitted Old Covenant men to divorce their wives for a particular cause, which according to the text was he found her sexually unclean (fornication) when he married her. Those men were forbidden from taking them back if they married again. On the other hand Jesus said that these Old Covenant men who divorcd for reasons other than "fornication" were committing adultery to remarry, and making their wives commit adultery, which by definition meant that their divorces did not separate the marriage bond and their subsequent marriages were extramarital affairs. Obviously these men and women weren't forbidden from ending the adulterous relationships and returning to their true marriages, and the Law you appeal to never said they shouldn't.
Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house"
Matthew 19:3-9 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two | | |
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