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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 9:53:15 AM
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tn1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
The problem is the hardness of heart that leads to abuse, neglect, divorce, and even murder. Instead of cursing the fruit (divorce), the church needs to dig up the root (hard-heartedness)!
I really don't know how many divorces are a result of abuse, but somehow that always gets thrown out as if it's the main reason for all these divorces. If there are that many cases of abuse WITHIN the church, then we are in trouble.
First note that "abuse" was not the focus of what I shared, but was only one example of hard-heartedness; but abuse is a good example of such. How many divorces are a result of divorce, I don't know; but 100% are a result of hard-heartedness however it is expressed. And considering as many marriages in the church end in divorce as those not in the church, it would seem that hard-heartedness is as rampant in the Western church as in the Western world.
Often times people use extreme examples to prove or disprove a concept/principle - rightly so, I believe. If a principle is not right for an extreme example, then it's not right for all and principles should be right for all, not just the average.
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For all the other excuses... scripture instructs us what to do when we are with someone who is an unbeliever, or is disobedient to the word...
If we need to separate for the sake of peace and safety that's fine, but having the heart of Christ would be to pray for that person who obviously needs Jesus. "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do..." Jesus isn't going to tell them they are not worthy... why should we? Are you going to stand before God one day and say I know my spouse is good enough for you, but they weren't good enough for me?
Yes, we should always walk in forgiveness; but that does not mean continued relationship especially if the offending party doesn't desire reconciliation or a continued relationship.
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quote:
You said:
Instead of cursing the fruit (divorce), the church needs to dig up the root (hard-heartedness)!
I agree, but what I see is the church encouraging hard heartedness. We are no better if we harden our hearts and close the door for reconciliation to a spouse who leaves and sins against us... We should never remain irreconcilable. We are supposed to be representing and reflecting Jesus...........I don't see Him in that anywhere.
It doesn't matter how high the divorce rate is... either way we would have A LOT more reconciliations- even post-divorce if the church didn't have the "move on" no accountability for our vows mentality. If we started holding people accountable and did not marry divorced people. Rarely will someone get counsel to pray for reconciliation even though that is God's clearly expressed will.
Sadly, the traditional doctrine encourages codependence by removing any penalty for people breaking their vows. By teaching that marriage is indissoluble, the hard-hearted party is not held accountable for breaking their vows. When a person vows to love, honor, and cherish his/her spouse, and instead hates, dishonors, and disdains his/her spouse, then the hated, dishonored, disdained spouse has no recourse but to continue to stay bound to that person no matter how bad the person becomes, IF marriage is indissoluble.
However, if we recognize that marriage is breakable, then couples can set healthy personal boundaries with the realization that if the offending partner continues to break those boundaries, the offending partner runs the risk of loosing that relationship. Such realization thus empowers the good and restrains evil.
What causes hard-heartedness - repeated breaking of personal boundaries. A person who speaks unlovingly to their spouse will progress to speaking harshly, to speaking hatefully, to speaking abusively - if they are not held accountable for speaking unlovingly. However, if you love someone, you will not let them continue to abuse you. We should always forgive, but that does not mean that we should be door-mats allowing people to walk all over us. We should do all we can to live at peace with eachother, but well defined boundaries encourage peace. God has not called us to be passive, but to be peace-makers. And part of being a peace-maker is helping people develop healthy personal boundaries and respect other people's boundaries.
If you haven't read Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend, I encourage you to do so.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 10:26:24 AM
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laura...
Posts: 2861
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quote:
If we need to separate for the sake of peace and safety that's fine, but having the heart of Christ would be to pray for that person who obviously needs Jesus. "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do..." Jesus isn't going to tell them they are not worthy... why should we? Are you going to stand before God one day and say I know my spouse is good enough for you, but they weren't good enough for me?
You said:
Instead of cursing the fruit (divorce), the church needs to dig up the root (hard-heartedness)!
I agree, but what I see is the church encouraging hard heartedness. We are no better if we harden our hearts and close the door for reconciliation to a spouse who leaves and sins against us... We should never remain irreconcilable. We are supposed to be representing and reflecting Jesus...........I don't see Him in that anywhere.
First, we are all unworthy. Secondly, there are many people that Jesus will not reconcile with. Does that make Jesus hardhearted? Heaven forbid.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 1:31:14 PM
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tn1
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Mt. 19: 1-9 as I understand it
Anyone who has any experience in translating text from one language to another, understands how difficult such a task is. Many things assumed in the text and by the author are lost in a translation unless they are specifically noted and even added in though not in the actual text. The more different the respective cultures, the more is lost in a word-for-word translation. This is especially evident in Matthew 19:1-9.
Matthew wrote to the Jews, knowing they would understand the Jewish cultural issues of that day (Any-matter divorce, hateful divorces, men refusing to give the bill of divorce, polygamy, etc.). However, Greco-roman culture, thought, philosophies, values, beliefs, and language are radically different from the Jewish culture to which Jesus spoke. Thus understanding the cultural distinctives is very important to correctly translate what Jesus said and Matthew wrote and translated into Greek.
The following are the basic facts that serve as a foundation for my understanding and interpretation of this passage:
1. The scene took place in Herod’s territory (across the Jordan), reminding one of John the Baptist’s beheading for denouncing Herod and Herodias’ adulterous relationship. According to Josephus, Herodias left Phillip (Herod’s brother) giving him an illegal bill of divorce, and subsequently married Herod. But Phillip refused to give Herodias a legal bill of divorce and thus Herodias was still legally Phillip’s wife. Herod and Herodias’ relationship was both an immoral and illegal - adultery.
2. The encounter with the Pharisees was an adversarial one. Jesus opposed the evil doctrines and philosophies of the Pharisees, including their doctrines and philosophies concerning marriage and divorce. They likely hoped to have Jesus say something directly against Herod’s illegal and immoral marriage to Herodias like John the Baptist did. They also likely wanted to have Jesus ostracize either those who believed in the “Any-matter” (No-fault) divorce or those who did not. In effect they attempted to put Jesus between the horns of a dilemma.
3. The “Any-matter” divorce debate was NOT about morally acceptable or non-acceptable reasons for divorce. Rather, “Any-matter” was an idiomatic phrase referencing a divorce debate similar in many ways to the modern debate over No-Fault Divorce. It was a debate over divorce philosophy and civil legislation of divorce. Thus I’ll use the closest American idiomatic phrase, “No-fault divorce” in my translation below.
4. Jesus fully endorsed the divine ideal of marriage, a monogamous faithful lifelong union of a man and woman in a familial bond. And yet He recognized that even marriages joined together by God ran the risk of divorce, being torn apart through man’s effort. "Let not" in "What God has joined together let not..." is a conditional negative, not an absolute. In other words, it's a directive to not do something that is possible, not impossible. In other words, Jesus recognized marriage is breakable, not indissoluble; and though the marriage union is meant to last for life, it can be broken through divorce, though it should not be.
5. Jesus spoke prophetically concerning issues of the heart and encouraging obedience to civil law. However, Jesus did not speak as a civil legislator. Jesus endorsed the authority of the civil government, encouraging His followers to even pay taxes to Caesar and obey the laws of the Pharisees, those that sit in Moses’ seat, place of authority, though He did not seek to be a judge. And in Israel under Mosaic Law, issues concerning MDR were under limited civil authority and thus underscored the need for the bill of divorce.
6. Jesus fully endorsed the written Mosaic Law, including the bill of divorce; in fact, Jesus was The Word that inspired Moses to institute the bill of divorce! In other words, God inspired Moses to legislatively enact the bill of divorce. Jesus certainly didn't disagree with Moses, but did oppose the attitudes and teachings of the Pharisees.
7. The phrase “one flesh” was an idiomatic (culturally specific) phrase meaning “family”, and in this context meaning the creation of a new separate immediate family unit – the most basic unit of social order.
8. The purpose of the bill of divorce was to mitigate the oppression of women by freeing an expelled/abandoned wife to legally marry again, to remain married, and to not be reclaimed by her 1st husband. Women who were expelled but did not receive a bill of divorce could not legally marry another man; and thus if such a woman did marry another man, she was committing adultery and the man that married her was committing adultery. This was an ongoing problem in Israel and is even still a problem today in Jewish communities.
9. In Israel, only men had the option/power of divorce. Women could not initiate a divorce.
10. Fornication, “porneia”, means immoral/illegal relationships.
11. When two verbs are used together, both being in the Subjunctive Mood, it can indicate causality. In Matthew 19:9 “apoluo” (put-away) and “gameo” (marry) are both in the Subjunctive Mood and thus can be translated as “If a man divorces his wife in order to marry another, he commits adultery.”
12. Jesus likely spoke in Aramaic, the common street language of Israel; and it’s possible, likely in my opinion that Matthew was originally written in Aramaic. Thus it is significant to note that the Aramaic text uses two words in this passage, “nishbook” meaning illegal separation (separation without a bill of divorce), and “nishry” meaning divorce (separation with a legal bill of divorce).
13. Also, Mt. 19:9 has 8 different versions in early Greek manuscripts, some completely leaving out the part about the woman committing adultery. This underscores the struggle the early church had in understanding and interpreting what Jesus said in a Jewish culture into Greek language and thought which did not even begin to grasp Jewish divorce much less the debates concerning Jewish divorce.
Of course, the following is not a “word-for-word” translation; rather, I’ve attempted to reflect not only the concepts referenced “thought for thought”, but I've also sought to convey the passion with which I believe Jesus spoke.
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Mt. 19:1-9
The Pharisees came to Jesus to test Him by asking, “Are you for or against ‘No-Fault Divorce’?”
Jesus answered, “Why are you arguing so much over civil divorce legislation? Don’t you understand that God created us and desires us to have healthy families, especially healthy fulfilling marriages like God pictured in Eden -- monogamous, faithful, loving, life-long relationships! You should focus your efforts on helping people build solid marriages, and certainly not encouraging or empowering them to end their marriages in either separation or divorce.”
Seeing Jesus slip out of their trap, in frustration, they said to Him, “Why then did Moses give us the bill of divorce?!”
Jesus replied to them with fire in His voice, “First of all, from the beginning God never intended for you to treat your helpmates with such evil; but because your hearts are so hard towards one another and God, God inspired Moses to enact the bill of divorce to mitigate the oppression of women, to legally free an expelled wife to marry again, and to stop a man from expelling his wife and yet retaining legal authority over her causing her to commit adultery and any man that “marries” her to commit adultery. Furthermore, except of course for immoral/illegal relationships like that of Herod and Herodias, even if a man does legally divorce his wife, if He does so in order to marry another woman, he is guilty of adultery!” ------------------------------------------------------------------------
< Message edited by tn1 -- 10/9/2008 6:09:30 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 6:43:02 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 828
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quote:
First, we are all unworthy. Secondly, there are many people that Jesus will not reconcile with. Does that make Jesus hardhearted? Heaven forbid.
That was kind of my point... we are all unworthy, so we have no right to judge a spouse as unworthy of remaining faithful to, even if they are in rebellion... Taking another spouse is only hindering the chances of reconciliation. Many, many of those in rebellion are finally broken by God and repent... and sometimes it's too late because their spouse was not willing to do what there vows said they would... forsaking all others for better for worse til death.
It is not for us to play God and decide when there's no longer hope. His timetable is not the same as ours, and His ways are not our ways... Many have reconciled after YEARS... even after marrying another.
Jesus leaves the door open to reconcile with Him until death. It is OUR choice whether we choose Him. His love that we should reflect is AGAPE love... that expects nothing in return, loves through our wrongs, and loves in spite of the rejection He gets for years before some accept Him.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 9:27:58 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
You still haven't answered the question. How does it fit into what you're claiming here that Jesus says the woman who was innocent of unchastity (or as one translation errantly says marital unfaithfulness) is made to commit adultery by her husband divorcing her? And also why does it say that whoever marries the woman who was unjustly divorced by her husband is also guilty of adultery by marrying her?
your premise is wrong. you keep saying the wayward spouse is innocent. that's just backwards. the wayward spouse is already guilty of adultery. you even underlined it in your copy and paste job. someone remarrying for reasons other than adultery and other exceptions outlined which some people errantly believe is committing adultery too.
Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery
Read it for yourself. The text says that the man who divorces a woman who is not guilty of unchastity is making her commit adultery in doing so. So how does this fit with what you're attempting to claim here?
It also goes on to say: "and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. "
Whoever marries this divorced woman is not married to her as far as God is concerned, but actually having an extramarital affair with her because she is still bound to her husband who unjustly divorced her. That proves that divorce cannot separate the marriage bond, unless it was an Old Covenant man divorcing her for "unchastity" as the Old Covenant Law that Jesus was quoting there permitted. How can an man marrying a divorced woman be guilty of adultery if divorce could separate the marriage bond? By definition adultery means she is still married to the man who divorced her and is now having relations with someone she is not married to.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 9:38:45 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1147
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
First, we are all unworthy. Secondly, there are many people that Jesus will not reconcile with. Does that make Jesus hardhearted? Heaven forbid.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/9/2008 10:35:32 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
your premise is wrong. you keep saying the wayward spouse is innocent. that's just backwards. the wayward spouse is already guilty of adultery. you even underlined it in your copy and paste job. someone remarrying for reasons other than adultery and other exceptions outlined which some people errantly believe is committing adultery too.
Referring to Matthew 5:32-
You might need to read that verse a few more times very slowly, just try reading it without the exception clause...and you will see that it says a woman who is put away without cause is made to commit adultery, along with the one who marries her. Using your interpretation of the exception (for adultery), this verse would be saying that the wayward/unfaithful spouse is the one who is free to remarry, not the innocent one.
And you are right... that is backwards. Not only is it backwards, but you have confirmed that you are claiming that somehow one party can be free to remarry and not the other, which is not physically possible. If the guilty party is committing adultery via remarriage (like you said and like scripture says) that means that they are committing adultery against the innocent party who they are apparently STILL BOUND TO.
This is a point that the remarriage proponents continue to blatantly ignore.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/10/2008 8:09:42 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
Because that's how they would learn and grow in Christ to become saved. Everyone who met with the "Church" wasn't saved, but were at various points of growth in being sanctified by God's Spirit to become saved. Salvation is process that begins at conversion, but one is not "saved" until they have been regenerated and sanctified by God's Spirit, or in other words, born again. So you believe in works salvation. That explains a lot. We have been talking across definitions.
I do not know about you but I was born as a baby and had to grow up. As Paul says the natural is a picture of the spritual and when we confess Jesus as Lord and Savior, we are born again as baby believers. We have to grow up, to be sure and that process takes years. But as Jesus said in John 3, one cannot even SEE the kingdom of God until after new birth, let alone grow up into an effectual part of it.
Since you have a messed up idea of salvation, it is no wonder your ideas on marriage are also messed up.
Marriage is a picture of the congregation and our Messiah. The 2 are intertwined.
I would suggest you hang out in the salvation forum for a while. First things first, and salvation is definately first.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/10/2008 11:12:56 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
To everyone,
I want to be very clear about something.
The purpose of this thread is to dicuss the TOPIC of Remarriage After Divorce.
It is NOT for the purpose of discussing YOUR divorce.
I have found that people who post with statements like, "so because I divorced my spouse I am now forever a sinner and never to be forgiven?" are opening themselves up to being hurt or hurting someone else.
If you are not able to participate in this topic without discussing the experience of YOUR divorce then I must request that you stay out of the thread.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
Thank you for your attention, understanding, and cooperation.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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Want to see my latest online project? Check out http://budurl.com/CWonFacebook
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/10/2008 8:34:15 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1147
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
Because that's how they would learn and grow in Christ to become saved. Everyone who met with the "Church" wasn't saved, but were at various points of growth in being sanctified by God's Spirit to become saved. Salvation is process that begins at conversion, but one is not "saved" until they have been regenerated and sanctified by God's Spirit, or in other words, born again.
So you believe in works salvation. That explains a lot. We have been talking across definitions.
No I don't and have never said anyone was saved by their works. If you read what I wrote more carefully you'll notice that what I said is that we are saved by the work that God's Spirit does in us and have never said that we save ourselves by doing good works apart from Him.
quote:
I do not know about you but I was born as a baby and had to grow up. As Paul says the natural is a picture of the spritual and when we confess Jesus as Lord and Savior, we are born again as baby believers.
Do you have any Bible verses that state that one is born of God at conversion? Scripture says we are saved when we have been regenerated and sanctified by God's Spirit, and know it has been accomplished by our fruits. Those who practice righteousness are of God while those who practice lawlessness are children of the devil. It is a process that normally takes time, and isn't complete until our fruits show that we have been transformed within.
Titus 3:5: “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.”
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Hebrews 10:15-17 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Romans 8:5-17 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
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We have to grow up, to be sure and that process takes years. But as Jesus said in John 3, one cannot even SEE the kingdom of God until after new birth, let alone grow up into an effectual part of it.
And it specifically states that we are not born of God until our normal nature is one of righteousness and our old nature of lawlessness has passed away:
John 14:15,21,23-24 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.""He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
1 John 2:3-6 By this WE KNOW that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
1 John 5:2-3 By this WE KNOW that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:18 We know that NO ONE who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
1 John 3:7-10 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. BY THIS the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Matthew 7:16-23 "YOU WILL KNOW them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Ephesians 5:5-8 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, NOR ADULTERERS, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
quote:
Since you have a messed up idea of salvation, it is no wonder your ideas on marriage are also messed up.
Marriage is a picture of the congregation and our Messiah. The 2 are intertwined.
You falsely assume I have a "messed up idea of salvation" because you have been sold bad Theology that says that Christians can accept Christ as Savior while living carnally like the devil, and not have to accept Him as Lord of our lives and be sanctified by His Spirit before we become His children.
You are correct however that marriage is a picture of salvation:
Ephesians 5:22-33 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
Has Jesus divorced His ekklesia (church), or is He faithfully dedicated to His covenant to her regardless of her faults? Would He ever dump her and refuse to offer any grace, forgiveness, or unconditional love?
quote:
I would suggest you hang out in the salvation forum for a while. First things first, and salvation is definately first.
Read the verses above and compare them to your Theology and see if you see any contradictions. I used to preach the same Theology myself because a very clever preacher sold that same bill of goods to me at one time.
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 2:48:02 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2828
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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Tn1,
I saw that I missed your question from way back, here is one citation about how divorce was handled when a husband refused to grant his wife a divorce from an article that is dealing with the consequences of that law today.
"[In ancient times, the bet din ["Jewish court of law"] was allowed to use extreme force, if necessary, to cause a recalcitrant husband to issue his wife a get. This usually involved a pack of men beating the man continuously until he agreed to issue a get. If he died during the beatings, his wife was declared a widow and was allowed to remarry, since widowhood allows women to remarry. This phenomenon is an excellent example of the additional "abuse" that often occurred in Jewish divorce cases of the past]. This last point demonstrates that no matter where Jewish women live, they are always at the mercy of their husbands to be issued a get in divorce cases. "
If I have time I will look for the Mishnaic sources of this Law, for the time being, here is a link to the article I found.
P.S. I haven't been following this thread as much as I used to because, as Qtman said, I also got tired of banging my head against the wall. I appreciate your posts, and applaud your efforts here; many people read this thread so there is real value to your posts, but it is unlikely to change the position of the few here who refuse to see the truth.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 10:07:50 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1147
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
P.S. I haven't been following this thread as much as I used to because, as Qtman said, I also got tired of banging my head against the wall. I appreciate your posts, and applaud your efforts here; many people read this thread so there is real value to your posts, but it is unlikely to change the position of the few here who refuse to see the truth.
You and he have completely different and contradictory "truths" about what the Bible says on this matter, so how do you "appreciate" and "applaud" his "truths" when you don't believe them to be accurate? Is it simply an issue of it not mattering what excuses one uses to justify divorce and remarriage as long as the person does justify it? Anyone who attempts to make the Bible say it is alright to divorce and remarry no matter what means is used is good, while anyone who doesn't is a "wall" who doesn't want the "truth", or should I say any of the several contradicting "truths".
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 10:50:10 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2828
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
P.S. I haven't been following this thread as much as I used to because, as Qtman said, I also got tired of banging my head against the wall. I appreciate your posts, and applaud your efforts here; many people read this thread so there is real value to your posts, but it is unlikely to change the position of the few here who refuse to see the truth.
You and he have completely different and contradictory "truths" about what the Bible says on this matter, so how do you "appreciate" and "applaud" his "truths" when you don't believe them to be accurate? Is it simply an issue of it not mattering what excuses one uses to justify divorce and remarriage as long as the person does justify it? Anyone who attempts to make the Bible say it is alright to divorce and remarry no matter what means is used is good, while anyone who doesn't is a "wall" who doesn't want the "truth", or should I say any of the several contradicting "truths".
SealedEternal
As you already know, I respect John Piper's "no remarriage ever" stand as well, I don't have to agree with someone to acknowledge that they have made an honest attempt to deal with the text.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 11:13:29 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1147
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
As you already know, I respect John Piper's "no remarriage ever" stand as well, I don't have to agree with someone to acknowledge that they have made an honest attempt to deal with the text.
So really any old doctrine is fine except the one Jesus expressed?:
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
That one is the "wall" that you don't respect?
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 11:17:46 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2828
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
As you already know, I respect John Piper's "no remarriage ever" stand as well, I don't have to agree with someone to acknowledge that they have made an honest attempt to deal with the text.
So really any old doctrine is fine except the one Jesus expressed?:
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
That one is the "wall" that you don't respect?
SealedEternal
Actually, I very much respect the doctrine that Jesus taught, but I just don't respect the one that you teach; they are very, very different! Remember, Jesus gave us those other verses (the ones you like to ignore)!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 11:33:01 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1147
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Actually, I very much respect the doctrine that Jesus taught, but I just don't respect the one that you teach; they are very, very different! Remember, Jesus gave us those other verses (the ones you like to ignore)!
I'm glad you finally accept that everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery. I teach the same so you should respect it. Which verses are you accusing me of ignoring, because as far as I know I've addresed them all?
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 11:44:45 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2828
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Actually, I very much respect the doctrine that Jesus taught, but I just don't respect the one that you teach; they are very, very different! Remember, Jesus gave us those other verses (the ones you like to ignore)!
I'm glad you finally accept that everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery. I teach the same so you should respect it. Which verses are you accusing me of ignoring, because as far as I know I've addresed them all?
SealedEternal
I am sorry, but you are quite confused; you have invented some very creative explanations to get around the clear teachings of Christ, but I am not looking for creative explanations, I am looking for honest explanations. When you actually begin teaching what Christ taught I will respect it, but until that time I must ignore it.
I have banged my head against the wall long enough for tonight, I am done.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 12:13:06 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1147
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
I am sorry, but you are quite confused; you have invented some very creative explanations to get around the clear teachings of Christ, but I am not looking for creative explanations, I am looking for honest explanations. When you actually begin teaching what Christ taught I will respect it, but until that time I must ignore it.
I have banged my head against the wall long enough for tonight, I am done.
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
Encarta® World English Dictionary
eve·ry·one [ évvree wùn ] every person
who [ hoo ] 2. introduces relative clause
di·vor·ce [ di váwrss ] official ending of marriage
his [hiz] belonging to him
wife [ wīf ] man's spouse
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