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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2008 5:13:48 PM
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car2ner
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It may seem so, but can people "be good" on their own power? This is not an air tight argument. It is just something to consider.
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"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/12/2008 9:48:04 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
It may seem so, but can people "be good" on their own power? This is not an air tight argument. It is just something to consider.
So you admit that people may appear to bear the fruit of God's Spirit by their own power, even though obviously they don't have Him dwelling within. In fact, lots of people are very good at putting on a facade of holiness, often to compensate for guilt or to prove to themselves and others that they are "saved" even when they are not. That of course destroys your entire argument.
Do you believe that someone who has the Spirit of God in them could continually and unrepentantly live in what He defines as adultery?
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/13/2008 12:43:23 PM
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keepingfaith
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Benelchi:
quote:
In the Mt. 5 and 19 passages Christ clearly indicates an exception for marital unfaithfulness.
In Co. 7 Paul clearly indicates an exception for abandonment by an unbeliever.
The problem is those same verses prove your conclusion can’t be correct, because they say an innocent woman who DID NOT commit adultery and is unjustly put away is going to commit adultery if she marries another. That means she is not "free," but is still bound to the adulterer who abandoned her. You seem to ignore the fact that you keep refuting yourself.
So... if I am an adulterer and I divorce... I will not be an adulterer if I marry another? But if I am NOT an adulterer… and I divorce I WILL BE an adulterer if I marry another? Can you not see how this theory doesn’t add up? Where do you see a compassionate and just God in that?
You have still failed to explain how…………"never again two, but one flesh” fits with your doctrine. A Pastor or a marriage certificate doesn't make us one flesh, only God does and He forms the covenant that only He has the power to end. A divorce decree means nothing to God.
You have still failed to explain how the command to remain unmarried fits your doctrine. Is this just for those who haven’t heard that it really doesn’t matter because all remarriages are recognized by God, so you can just ignore this command?
You still haven’t given us the magic potion that turns the person who Jesus says we are committing adultery with into our lawful spouse, and you haven’t told us at what point this “transformation” takes place. Is it during the immoral act of sleeping with someone else’s spouse on “our” wedding night? When we wake up the next morning is that person we coveted and stole now our rightful property? What other sins does this concept work with?
I do not expect any explanation…you’ll just ignore this and come back 20 posts from now and plop down the same couple of out of context misapplied verses with no explanation as to how they reconcile with the rest of the scriptures on the subject that all so blatantly contradict them. Not to mention how the “exception” verses on their own refute your conclusion.
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 9/13/2008 2:32:20 PM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/13/2008 12:44:46 PM
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car2ner
Posts: 3031
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quote:
In fact, lots of people are very good at putting on a facade of holiness, often to compensate for guilt or to prove to themselves and others that they are "saved" even when they are not. That of course destroys your entire argument.
Hense the need to add the word, constantly, not occasionally or when they can muster up some self will. I am talking about an honest to goodness walking in the spirit, not a facade.
So, do I believe that someone who has the spirit of God in them could cont to live as you state that He defines adultery? No, therefore when I see someone walking in the Spirit (not pretending or "being good") and they are in 2nd union, aka remarriage, then I had to rethink how the scriptures define adultery (life long or an event) or at least how we are to respond.
This is why, even before I believed in the exceptions, I would not put someone's salvation on the line. That would make salvation works based.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/13/2008 1:46:06 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
So, do I believe that someone who has the spirit of God in them could cont to live as you state that He defines adultery? No, therefore when I see someone walking in the Spirit (not pretending or "being good") and they are in 2nd union, aka remarriage, then I had to rethink how the scriptures define adultery (life long or an event) or at least how we are to respond.
This is why, even before I believed in the exceptions, I would not put someone's salvation on the line. That would make salvation works based.
Are you saying you base your theology on what other people are doing and what they "appear" to be, instead of on God's unchanging word? Going back to the example I gave a few posts back.... if you met these 2 people who took someone else's spouse, based on their outward appearance you would believe they had fruit of the Spirit as well. No one else around would question it either because they are "good" people.
I have trouble believing that anyone who has His Spirit would ever take and keep their neighbor's spouse knowing they are praying for the restoration of their family. That is being led by the flesh, not being led by the Spirit- and certainly not walking out the love of Christ.
I have many friends and family... who are "good" and "nice" and loving people... but they do not really follow Jesus in any way or have a relationship with Him. Their fruit appears the same as those who follow Christ with all their heart and all their soul.
I've known homosexuals who also display fruit of the Spirit, but according scripture His Spirit cannot abide in someone who is sexually immoral. They are even in the pulpits today... Do you believe based on their "fruit" that homosexuality is not sin?
I believe the reason we see so many "remarriages" in the church today is because of deception. I believe many do not even know they are in adultery- because they can find a plethora of heretics who will tell them what their itching ears want to hear just like scripture says there will be. True servants of God were never "popular"... according to scripture- quite the opposite. Just ask John the Baptist...
I look around at the churches with these elaborate buildings and fountains and I get sick to my stomach... where the money is going... the goal has changed from really drawing people to Christ... to just drawing a "crowd." No one knows who is coming or going, or how pure the congregation is...
When the flood of no fault divorce came several years ago, and these people came into the church in remarriages, that is also around the same time the church started going silent on teaching MDR. So people who became Christians weren't hearing truth from the pulpits. This acceptance of unions that are in direct opposition to the Word of God has created the mass chaos and confusion today.
The other problem that is contributing and is even more damaging is the gospel message that has been perverted over the last century... that has changed from a message of repentance... to "no repentance required..." Just say this little prayer and sit in this bathtub and you are saved... I believe this is leading millions astray....................
I do not believe in works-based salvation either... "Works" and repentance of sin are 2 different things.
How do you interpret this verse?
Matt 7:21-3
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me you who pratice lawlessness.'
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 9/13/2008 2:37:00 PM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/13/2008 3:02:37 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
So... if I am an adulterer and I divorce... I will not be an adulterer if I marry another? But if I am NOT an adulterer… and I divorce I WILL BE an adulterer if I marry another? Can you not see how this theory doesn’t add up? Where do you see a compassionate and just God in that?
And of course if you're NOT an adulterer… and you divorce YOU WILL BE an adulterer if you marry another, and thus you are not an adulterer to remarry because you committed adultery, which according to Benelchi is the exception. In other words, all divorces involving adultery are perfectly legal according to him, and all divorces not involving adultery are adultery because they didn't involve adultery, and therefore do involve adultery which makes them legal. If this illogical position were correct, then Christ would have stated that no one who divorces and remarries commits adultery rather than what He actually said which is that "Everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery" because that is the result of their line of reasoning.
You make an excellent point also that their own proof text undermines their own doctrine because Jesus said that the innocent woman is made to commit adultery by her husbands unlawful actions of abandoning her. Then when we are discussing 1 Cor. 7 Benelchi and others claim that abandonment is the exception according to Paul. So according to their interpretation of their out of context proof texts, Jesus said there is one exception only which they claim is adultery, but Paul contradicts Him and offers another, and Paul's exception makes abandonment the legal cause which Jesus said results in the innocent person whom was abandoned to commit adultery by remarrying. Then of course according to him, both Paul and Jesus contradict themselves in most of the verses on the subject by claiming God joins the two into one flesh, that only death and nothing else will dissolve that bond, and that those who divorce and attempt to remarry are entering into extramarital affairs, which he claims is not the case.
If you think about it, either of these so-called exceptions essentially makes all divorce and remarriage lawful since abandonment is a part of every divorce as well. In actuality their position is that no divorce and remarriage is unlawful and thus Jesus and Paul both wasted their time and contradicted themselves and each other when all either had to do according to them is state that divorce and remarriage is lawful for any reason, because that is the final conclusion of both of their supposed "exceptions" when put into practice. In fact, when asked repeatedly which second marriages are not lawful he has never been able to give any scenario in which the couple is not legally married.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/13/2008 3:33:36 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
You also ignored the Du. 24:1-4 passage (the one that explicit defines the guidelines for both divorce and remarriage. In this passage it is made clear that the marriage bond can be irrevocably broken because it is made clear that a remarried spouse is not permitted to return to a former spouse.
You might want to read a little farther- you will find the New Testament very enlightening...
May the force be with you if you are still trying to keep and live by these old covenant laws.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/13/2008 8:52:33 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
Hense the need to add the word, constantly, not occasionally or when they can muster up some self will. I am talking about an honest to goodness walking in the spirit, not a facade.
So, do I believe that someone who has the spirit of God in them could cont to live as you state that He defines adultery? No, therefore when I see someone walking in the Spirit (not pretending or "being good") and they are in 2nd union, aka remarriage, then I had to rethink how the scriptures define adultery (life long or an event) or at least how we are to respond.
So you interpret scripture by the appearance of man rather than vice versa? My father-in-law was an elder in the Jehovah's Witness religion and denied that Christ was God until the day he died. He was totally dedicated to his religion and gave all of his time and disposable income to this organization. He never committed any overt sins that I could see, and was always kind and loving to everyone he met. If I didn't know better I would assume he had God's Spirit in him based on appearance, but I knew intellectually based on God's Word, that he did not know Christ personally based on his denial of Him.
If I were to use your standard of judgment, I would have to conclude that the Jehovah's Witness religion must be correct and that Jesus really isn't God, because my father-in-law clearly seemed to have the fruit of the Spirit in his heart, so all of the scriptures where He made it clear that He was God, must not mean what they seem to say, because he clearly seemed to fit the description to me. Of course that is backwards reasoning, and I would never deny God's Word in favor of the appearance of men. He was desperately maintaining an appearance of righteousness because his religion required him to do those things or else lose his position in God's Kingdom. Who knows what peoples motives are for being the way they are, it would be unwise to assume scripture to not mean what it says because on experience with people who are seemingly contradicting it yet living good lives in other respects.
quote:
This is why, even before I believed in the exceptions, I would not put someone's salvation on the line. That would make salvation works based.
Now you're contradicting yourself. Your whole argument was that you saw divorced and remarried people who you knew had salvation based on their works, which led you to believe that divorce and remarriage could not be continuous adultery. Now you're claiming that you cannot know someones salvation by their works which undermines your entire argument.
Beyond that, it doesn't make salvation works based to say that true children of God will bear good fruit, because scripture itself says that many times. This is because true children of God are new creations through the work that God's Spirit does in us, and that work will be evident by our fruits. John wrote in his epistle that those who know Christ will keep His commandments, and those who claim Him as Lord and don't keep them are liars and children of the devil. Jesus said that many of these children of the devil will call Him Lord, Lord while only a few professing Christians actually do know Him. It is our fruits that determine this, but not all people who appear holy and sanctified actually are, despite their appearance.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/13/2008 11:26:59 PM
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Luvinme
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I am separated from my husband. I don't believe we will be back together either as we experienced much difficulties battling mental illness that unfortunately, he allowed to rule his life and ruin it along with our marriage.
What I don't understand is the support I receive from everyone including church that I have gone my separate way and given up on the whole thing. Most comments have been to the tune of "cut your losses", "move on", "there is someone better out there for you". Hey, great for me that I have not been reprimanded for the whole ordeal, but is this scripture I wonder....
Mostly, people are constantly encouraging me that my next marriage will be better. I personally don't feel to marry again especially since it would be considered adultery, wouldn't it? How come the church and tons of Christians I meet including this site encourages it then.. Am I reading something wrong?
(Mark 10:11,12) He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12.And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2008 12:01:51 AM
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benelchi
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This article has been posted before on this thread, the problem with this argument is that virtually no Greek text used for any version follows the marginal notes in that manuscript. All of the translations from the KJV through modern times base their translation simply on 'me epi porneia' as is found in virtually all manuscript dating back to the very earliest copies that we have.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2008 4:58:23 AM
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Oldwing
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I think the clue is in whether or not the wife divorces the husband. If such is the case then it would be adultery, but if the opposite is true [husband divorcing wife] then she is free to remarry. [If memory serves me correctly that is :)]
_____________________________
Gary
These things I command you, that you love one another. John 15:17
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2008 9:41:25 AM
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benelchi
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Luvinme,
I should point out first that the rules of the thread do not permit one to post their personal experiences, and for good reasons; there are those on this thread who will tell people they are going to hell because they have remarried. So rather than deal with the specifics of your situation, I will attempt to give you an overview of the Scriptural teaching on divorce in the bible.
What you describe as the reaction from many in your church is symptomatic of many churches, and, biblically, it is wrong. Divorce is something we as believers should never see as just "moving on", etc... it is a tearing of the relationship that made a husband and wife one. Reconciliation is always best if possible, and it really is possible far more often than most realize. God can (and does) work miracles today.
The biblical command that applies to the situation you described I believe is found in 1 Co. 7:10-11 i.e. when a divorce happens for unbiblical reasons, reconciliation is the only biblical option. This is echoed in the passage from Mark that you quoted.
There are situations where the bible does give biblical grounds for divorce and remarriage, one such circumstance is also found in 1 Co 7 (verses 12-16) i.e. when an unbelieving spouse chooses to divorce, the believer is free to remarry; however, the believer is not free to choose to divorce.
Also in Mt. 5:31-32 and Mt. 19:9, Jesus gives us the other clear biblical reason for divorce i.e sexual infidelity. While I do believe this is a biblically valid reason for divorce, I also believe that too often those in the church treat this situation as a "free ticket" out of a marriage and I don't believe God ever intended it to be so. There are situations where sexual infidelity can so destroy a marriage that reconciliation is not possible, but these situations are few and far between.
One other situation that clearly breaks the marriage covenant is the remarriage of a spouse. In Du. 24:1-4 we are told that the marriage covenant is so broken in the case of a remarriage that a spouse who has remarried may never return to a former spouse.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2008 10:14:02 AM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
Jesus said that many of these children of the devil will call Him Lord, Lord while only a few professing Christians actually do know Him.
Yes, He does speak of the "many" and the "few"...more than once.
Since the divorce rate in the church is now equal to or possibly higher than that of the world, we have to wonder how high the percentage of false converts is... Where is the fruit of the Spirit in a church with that kind of divorce rate? There is just no such thing as 2 "irreconcilable" born again Believers by definition and if we have His love abiding in us, we will be able to walk out our vows til death.
As we have just seen in a post, even the "church" is giving wordly counsel to the divorced... I was given it myself. "Jesus wants you to be happy!" Where is this in scripture??? I found a very different story in God's word about crucifying the flesh, dying to self... not living to please self... and how sacrifice and suffering are all part of the Christian walk. I learned that life is not about me....it's all about HIM!
Yes, He does want us to be happy, that's why He gives us His plan, His will, His way... and His word is pretty clear that He wants us to remain faithful to our vows til death, even in the face of a spouse who does not.
The modern church has adopted the worldly mentality of what love is, and what marriage is. Christ's purpose for marriage is not the same as the world's. It is not for our happiness... it is to be a witness to the world by modeling His relationship to the church for His glory.
We are on a downward spiral because of the church's acceptance of divorce. It is time for Pastors to take a stand... there is a stark contrast today between most servants of God and the many who were martyred for standing for truth. They don't want to say anything that might dwindle the crowd... When Jesus spoke hard truths, His crowds got smaller. He wasn't interested in building a megachurch with video screens and entertainment.
We have tried so hard to "not condemn" anyone for being divorced because of the innocent parties (rightfully so)... that the line has crossed to not even caring about the circumstances of a divorce, like if a spouse is remaining faithful and obedient and praying for restoration of their family... and all divorce is accepted- even those who leave their families for other people.
As Christians we can take a stand as well. If our spouses "divorce" us, we should not "divorce" them back. Our lives should not stand for that because divorce goes against all that Jesus represents. I just read on another thread here, someone made a comment that you can't stay in a relationship with someone who won't have one with you... and someone replied... YES YOU CAN! Jesus did with me for a LOOONNNGGG time before I would have anything to do with Him!!!
AMEN!
So let your life stand for Jesus, don't let is stand for divorce...
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 9/14/2008 10:49:54 AM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2008 11:37:28 AM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1192
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From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
As we have just seen in a post, even the "church" is giving wordly counsel to the divorced... I was given it myself. "Jesus wants you to be happy!" Where is this in scripture??? I found a very different story in God's word about crucifying the flesh, dying to self... not living to please self... and how sacrifice and suffering are all part of the Christian walk. I learned that life is not about me....it's all about HIM!
Yes, He does want us to be happy, that's why He gives us His plan, His will, His way... and His word is pretty clear that He wants us to remain faithful to our vows til death, even in the face of a spouse who does not.
The modern church has adopted the worldly mentality of what love is, and what marriage is. Christ's purpose for marriage is not the same as the world's. It is not for our happiness... it is to be a witness to the world by modeling His relationship to the church for His glory.
If we look at the true definition of "agapaō" love as described in scripture and displayed by Jesus Christ, it is far different than people define it today. It is a love that is not self serving and always places the other person ahead of the self. People today view "love" as conditional, while "agapaō" by definition is unconditional.
If we look to Christ's most vivid example of agapaō love, which was to suffer and die on a cross for the sins of others, we begin to understand the true meaning of the term. Did He ever complain that it wasn't fair for Him an innocent man to suffer for crimes He didn't commit? Did He ever put His own happiness above His love for others?
The reality is that most professing Christians today have no comprehension of what real agapaō love is all about, and assume that "love" is conditional on their own needs being met and their own happiness being fulfilled. They are willing to show a form of love as long as there is something in it for them. They will love their spouse as long as he or she makes them happy and fulfills their needs, but cut them off as deem them unworthy of love, grace, forgiveness, or unconditional love, as soon as they aren't getting what they want in return. In other words they are selfish and devoid of the agapaō love of Christ.
Christ as our bridegroom illustrated agapaō love for His bride despite all of our faults, our failing to meet His expectations, and our sins against Him. He never once used the faults of His bride to justify Him not unconditionally loving her and remaining faithful to His covenant. That is what is supposed to be illustrated in the lives of Christians in their marriages. What better testimony of unconditional agapaō love than a person who remains faithful to a spouse that doesn't give them the same in return?
1 Peter 3:1-2 In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.
Peter commands wives to submit to their carnal husbands exactly because of the testimony of unconditional agapaō love that it displays. He says that alone can win a man to Christ. Sure she could rationalize dumping the bum because he isn't walking with Christ, and claiming that she would be happier and perhaps more spiritual if she divorced him and found a more "christian" husband, but Peter understood that the testimony of remaining faithful to him would far better illustrate the grace, forgiveness, and unconditional love of Christ.
Ephesians 5:22-33 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
The modern "church" seems to constantly demand grace and forgiveness for themselves no matter what they do, but at the same time they have no desire to give it to those who wrong them. Suddenly it is about what is fair and promotes their happiness, but they never expect to suffer the consequences of their sins. Christ paid for those so we deserve grace and forgiveness, but if someone wrongs me I'm going to cut them off and consider them unworthy of reconciliation or unconditional love. They always claim they deserve God's grace for divorcing and remarrying despite His commands not to, yet they feel no need to exercise love, grace, or unconditional love to their spouses who wronged them in one way or another. Those people are unworthy of such things and have committed to unpardonable sin of wronging them. To me that seems very hypocritical.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2008 11:46:03 AM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 870
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quote:
There are situations where the bible does give biblical grounds for divorce and remarriage, one such circumstance is also found in 1 Co 7 (verses 12-16) i.e. when an unbelieving spouse chooses to divorce, the believer is free to remarry; however, the believer is not free to choose to divorce.
Also in Mt. 5:31-32 and Mt. 19:9, Jesus gives us the other clear biblical reason for divorce i.e sexual infidelity.
Luke 16:18
"EVERYONE who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E.......unless you can provide another dictionary definition that says everyone doesn't include every single living breathing person on the face of the earth, than you are continuing to make false claims.
E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E...... by definition includes:
A) Every single unbeliever who leaves his wife...
B) Every single person who commits adultery and divorces their spouse...
According to Jesus, they are all committing adultery if they marry another... so that means their covenant was NOT BROKEN by either of these things. Which means that NEITHER party was ever "free" from the marriage bond that Paul says is only broken by death (1cor7:39, Rom 7:2-3)
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 9/14/2008 11:57:50 AM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2008 12:35:53 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3633
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
There are situations where the bible does give biblical grounds for divorce and remarriage, one such circumstance is also found in 1 Co 7 (verses 12-16) i.e. when an unbelieving spouse chooses to divorce, the believer is free to remarry; however, the believer is not free to choose to divorce.
Also in Mt. 5:31-32 and Mt. 19:9, Jesus gives us the other clear biblical reason for divorce i.e sexual infidelity.
Luke 16:18
"EVERYONE who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."
E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E.......unless you can provide another dictionary definition that says everyone doesn't include every single living breathing person on the face of the earth, than you are continuing to make false claims.
E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E...... by definition includes:
A) Every single unbeliever who leaves his wife...
B) Every single person who commits adultery and divorces their spouse...
According to Jesus, they are all committing adultery if they marry another... so that means their covenant was NOT BROKEN by either of these things. Which means that NEITHER party was ever "free" from the marriage bond that Paul says is only broken by death (1cor7:39, Rom 7:2-3)
Fortunately Christ made it very clear what the exception to "everyone" is in this circumstance in Mt. 5 and Mt. 19; it was he who included the exception in these verses.
However, I see no exception in passages like:
Act. 2:21 "And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"
Jn 3:16 "For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotton Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Did you notices that neither of these passages say "except for remarried people!"
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2008 2:29:47 PM
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car2ner
Posts: 3031
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
Status: offline
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I added my thought, and you have countered. At this point let the readers ponder. I am returning to "lurking mode".
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2008 4:59:47 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 870
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
However, I see no exception in passages like:
Act. 2:21 "And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"
Jn 3:16 "For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotton Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Did you notices that neither of these passages say "except for remarried people!"
Wow do you love to quote verses out of context...
Jn 3:16-21
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
No one ever said remarried people were excluded from this. They said people who are divorced and take another spouse are not "married," but instead according to Jesus they are committing adultery against their true spouse who they are bound to for life (1cor7:39, Rom 7:2-3, Luk 16:18). You can read further in John to see what walking in the light means as opposed to walking in the dark.
James 2:19-26
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."
"You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2008 5:29:04 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3633
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
However, I see no exception in passages like:
Act. 2:21 "And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"
Jn 3:16 "For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotton Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Did you notices that neither of these passages say "except for remarried people!"
Wow do you love to quote verses out of context...
Jn 3:16-21
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
No one ever said remarried people were excluded from this. They said people who are divorced and take another spouse are not "married," but instead according to Jesus they are committing adultery against their true spouse who they are bound to for life (1cor7:39, Rom 7:2-3, Luk 16:18). You can read further in John to see what walking in the light means as opposed to walking in the dark.
James 2:19-26
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."
"You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."
Taking verses out of context is when you ignore the clear command given by Jesus in Mt. 5 and 19 and then declare as sin, what Christ permitted!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/14/2008 5:52:41 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 870
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Taking verses out of context is when you ignore the clear command given by Jesus in Mt. 5 and 19 and then declare as sin, what Christ permitted!
I guess there is an exception if one is a Pharisee or is without sin...otherwise, He commands us to extend mercy and grace to the adulterer.
Romans 7:1-3 proves your interpretation of that verse is invalid because it clearly shows that adultery doesn't break the covenant, and says the only exception in which we can marry another without it being adultery is when our spouse is dead.
John 8:3-7
"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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