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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 2:52:09 PM
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stateofgrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blueapples333
I think that the way we think creates the way we feel.
I think that sounds a lot more like New Age or Buddhism then Christianity.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 3:13:37 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: blueapples333
I think that the way we think creates the way we feel.
I think that sounds a lot more like New Age or Buddhism then Christianity.
I disagree. What we choose to think about, to focus on, does affect our emotions. Which in turn affects how we behave.
Why else does are we exhorted thus in Philippians 4:
quote:
Phi 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.
Phi 4:9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me--practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 3:38:55 PM
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womaninchrist
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Manda, I could agree with you - but not with the extent to which blueapples took things.
It's not like you can sit at your desk feeling all angry, irritable, anxious or depressed, and think "I'd like to be happy" and the mood will suddenly lift and you'll be all happy. But thoughts do affect our emotions. For example, you can be leaning toward a depression and think about the things depression encourages (isolation, feelings of guilt, self harm, or whatever) and those things gain strength possibly to a point where you act upon them. If you're depressed and think about things that don't relate to depression but aren't exactly encouraged by it (like socializing or even running basic errands) you're more likely to remain "functional" and the actions may even lift the depression. This is why across the board, most sources agree that wisdom says not to wallow in our moods.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 4:10:13 PM
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stateofgrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: womaninchrist
Manda, I could agree with you - but not with the extent to which blueapples took things.
It's not like you can sit at your desk feeling all angry, irritable, anxious or depressed, and think "I'd like to be happy" and the mood will suddenly lift and you'll be all happy. But thoughts do affect our emotions. For example, you can be leaning toward a depression and think about the things depression encourages (isolation, feelings of guilt, self harm, or whatever) and those things gain strength possibly to a point where you act upon them. If you're depressed and think about things that don't relate to depression but aren't exactly encouraged by it (like socializing or even running basic errands) you're more likely to remain "functional" and the actions may even lift the depression. This is why across the board, most sources agree that wisdom says not to wallow in our moods.
Agreed. What we dwell upon can INFLUENCE how we feel. Have no problem with that concept.
On the other hand, the way we think creates the way we feel is a lot more then that.
As an example, here's an excerpt from a Watchman Expositor article about the New Age movement.
Since man is intrinsically divine and perfect, his only real problem is ignorance of that fact. Man has a perception of finiteness which is in reality an illusion (Ken Keyes, Jr., Handbook to Higher Consciousness, pp. 125-29). Salvation in the New Age is for man to become enlightened through experiential knowledge (gnosis)
< Message edited by stateofgrace -- 3/7/2006 4:26:13 PM >
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 12:29:40 AM
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Giulia
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Okay if anyone here is familiar with psychology the ego is the aspect of the psyche that filters and directs actions and info.
The lion of judah, Jesus Christ, often gets depicted as the lion of Judah in the bible.
Then the rest is above and self explanatory, i.e. the eagle is the visionary the one who aspires and sees dreams or visions, the ox is the worker who tills the earth, the man is the emtional one who. Each of these if not subject to the ego in Christ unbalances the individual thus causes dis- ease.
And I AM for real, I was healed through faith in Christ joined together with an other man of faith.
I notice in the church many times people will respond to an alter call or to get prayed on because of external pressure, not the internal leading of the Holy Ghost.
the mind and emotions can be deceptive and often we are bound by what other people think or what our normal behaviour is and what we think it should be.
To avoid shame and feelings of rejection are a strong agenda which are driven by the carnal and fallen self, self without Christ.
When you say with your mouth but don't agree with your heart or vice versa, it becomes pretence. We are in a battle against deception here yet we like to make simple thing so complicated.
Also to confront the shame and guilt had by Jesus at the cross is no walk in the park, it is a difficult thing to do to go through the cross and your very foundations get shaken, I literaly shook like a leaf.
It is easy to be deceived into thinking one has gone through the Cross when in reality they went through the process of an act for whatever reason.(acceptance of man, or internal acceptance for following the prescribed route). Again I stress without the inner leading of the Holy Ghost all is lost! 
Correction, without the intercession of Jesus Christ all is lost!
And the Father.
Now there is a difficult one , ask me to explain the trinity and I dunno  .
< Message edited by Giulia -- 3/8/2006 2:30:35 AM >
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 9:47:29 AM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
On the other hand, the way we think creates the way we feel is a lot more then that.
I'm in agreement with you, stateofgrace, if what blueapples meant really was 'create' (I thought maybe it was just a poor choice of word, and maybe she meant something else).
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 2:41:32 PM
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womaninchrist
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Ooooooooooook. So I'm still bipolar because either I've chosen to retain my bipolar rather than letting the Lord heal it or because I've chosen to hold on to my sins, guilt and imperfections rather than to truly seek the Lord at the Cross. 
I'd LOVE to be healed of this (and the closely connected neurological whatever-it-is) but for whatever reasons He may have, the Lord has continued to leave me with them.
I'm starting to better understand why so many of the mentally ill non-christians I've met have trouble with Christians. It's how judgemental many of us are about the mentally ill. If you're mentally ill you've got to have spiritual flaws - unrepentant sins, demons, not spending enough time with the Lord, not reading your Bible enough, etc. If you're mentally ill, it's because you don't eat right or because you refuse to "control yourself". You name it, I've likely heard it from Christians that I like to think were well meaning...even though the judgement and advice was typically given without any real knowledge of the person to whom they were giving it. I've even seen guidebooks for seeking the Lord's healing that provides formulas for which sins and demons are present based on which mental illnesses the person has. Bleh.
Sure, it's POSSIBLE that mental illness (and physical illnesses too, btw) may be caused or worsened by demons, sins or spiritual issues... But why is it that we're so quick to cast judgement and anti-treatment advice to those with mental illness when we're loathe to give it to those with a physical illness even if we have reasons to honestly believe that it's the root of why they're ill?
My Dad is also mentally ill (nobody will tell me his diagnosis, but based on symptoms we guess either Bipolar 1 or schizoaffective). He was a paranoid, twistedly violent man who refused to seek treatment until forced to do so. I can remember praying since early childhood, just in case Grandma was right that there is a God, that God would spare me from my father's torment and let me be normal. Instead I got salvation and an explanation that I was now normal in HIS eyes. Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy to have the Lord, but I'd love to be freed of the bipolar. I'd still love to know why I was left with it. I'm thinking that'll just have to go on the list of things to ask when I reach heaven, because it's sure doing nothing but baffling my human mind.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 3:28:39 PM
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manda59
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You could still just be bipolar for the same reason that I am still hypothyroid. Which is just because I am, just because I live in a fallen world where things are just the way they are.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 4:10:00 PM
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Giulia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Giulia
Okay if anyone here is familiar with psychology the ego is the aspect of the psyche that filters and directs actions and info.
who tills the earth, the man is the emtional one who. Each of these if not subject to the ego in Christ unbalances the individual thus causes dis- ease.
What is this "ego in Christ"?
Now there is a difficult one , ask me to explain the trinity and I dunno .
Only if you subscribe to certain psychological models, which may well not be compatible with Christianity.
The "ego" is certainly not mentioned in the Bible.
Just out of interest, could you just tell me who you believe Jesus to be? For example, do you believe he is God?
The ego in Christ is the new self in Him. When we are born anew, we are seated in heavenly places in Him, we share in his sufferings we also share in His reign, and to be more descriptive the ego in Christ is kind gentle and kind loves all things believes all things,hopes all things does not envy, does not boast does not seek of itself.Is quick to forgive, and bless.
The ego in Christ is the moral self which directs and instructs all our actions and thoughts.
The ego in Christ would say we must love one another, the ego in flesh would say "I'm okay Jack stuff you!"
We have many psychologists who have observed and studied our behaviour for a long time, many of us, even Christians go to the doctor for medication,
I believe there are even Christian psychologists out there and they would be familiar with the ego and it's function.
now you want to tell me the ego is not biblical. I agree the bible doesn't speak of the ego, as such, but it certainly speaks of examples of the ego, self control is certainly a function of the ego, so are the other fruits of the spirit, the ego is the portal by which we filter information.
You go to a secular doctor for teatment(if I'm wrong about this i stand corrected, but this is the impression i get).
So in your books it would be okay to get medication and diagnosis off a doctor but don't believe any of their studies,
I assume you know you are hypothyroid because a doctor diagnosed you as such?
if this is the case it seems to me are you putting your faith in truth or the world and it's deception, I can tell you i am a doctor, i can even write up some fake papers to make me credible, are you just gonna believe me, because i have paper, a title and drugs?
Are you gonna trust and believe in my previous study and observation (mind you i could secretly be an axe murder, this may sound extreme, my resoning is extreme)
Sometimes God leaves a thorn in the flesh, as He did with Paul,for a reason.
Many times in the bible even as far back as the O T sickness and disease was closely associated with disobedience . Or generational sin.
We do know, however that when the pharisees asked Jesus about a man who was not healed, (sorry haven't got bible handy for scripture and verse) wether it was his sins or his families that made Him sick Jesus said neither, it was so God's works can be made manifest.
Just for the record i totally believe in the trinity. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit being three in One. I don't however understand it. I have heard many explanations from many preachers but they don't make sense to me even though it sits right in my spirit, my mind tells me it's madness.
I believe Jesus is Son of God and he is exhalted above all Gods. I believe God the Father is one with Jesus and I beleve the Holy Spirit is like the glue that holds them together. 
Please bear with me about this quote unquote business, I cut and paste then i can't seem to quote it. I have managed to be successful on occassions but mostly I am a complete dunce when it comes to this type of stuff.   
There, I realise I lost where it says quote,  next time i will make more of an effort .
< Message edited by Giulia -- 3/8/2006 5:07:37 PM >
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2006 5:16:22 PM
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manda59
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Sorry Giulia, all this ego stuff sounds just too Freudian for me, and Freud was not a Christian.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 1:02:58 AM
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Giulia
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Yes i am extreme, but won't appologise for it. And yeah a bit crrazy on worldly terms but perfectly sane according to heavenlie realm! 
It is written if you are not either hot or cold you will be spewed out, now this seems a bit extreeeem to me don't you think?
It is extreme when you have to take your own child up a mountain to kill him because God said.
And it is extreme to allow others to kill you in order to free your people, (what Jesus did was extreme, no?
Now was it God the father who said I AM that I AM, is this not the ego,
forget about freud, Carl Jung he was Christian he took the same view.
Basically the study of the ego is one that says we have to have one in order to survive.
We have to filter info through some channel to keep safe, i.e. the work of the ego. The ego will tell if you are safe or in danger, the ego will guide and direct your choices and decisions.
A child has a huge ego and is not even very aware of other people's existence.
Many adults are very egocentric and unaware of other people. self obsessed.
Some adults are born again and their ego is lost in that of the Lord in serving others as He did.
I understand the ego to be the the free will.
There are many preachers or actors who have alter ego's, the alter ego will be the
one you see prancing around on stage larger than life, of course they are not like this at home, thus the description of alter ego.
Ego created for show on a large scale.
Manda you still didn't answer my question i asked earlier. 
< Message edited by Giulia -- 3/9/2006 1:09:50 AM >
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 2:13:39 AM
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womaninchrist
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It really doesn't matter how many Christian terms or Bible quotes you add, if it's a worldly philosophy or practice it remains one despite the addition of Christian overtones. The psychological teachings about ego etc. have absolutely no basis in Christianity and are, in practice, rather opposed to it.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 6:41:37 AM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Giulia
forget about freud, Carl Jung he was Christian he took the same view.
And since Jung was a student of Freud's, it's hardly surprising that he should use some of the same terminology.
Btw, the dark "art" of Tarot refers to the lion of ego, did you know that?
There is still nothing about ego in the Bible.
What it does say if that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation - the old has gone, the new has come. It doesn't talk about a higher self, a cleaned up renovated higher quality version of the old self, it talks about a NEW creation, something totally different.
quote:
Manda you still didn't answer my question i asked earlier.
Which question was that? I must have overlooked it. Please do make sure it's an open question though.
Thanks.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 12:29:58 PM
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Giulia
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I hold myself chiefly to the standards of Christ.
I believe Christians can also be involved in psychology, and yes Carl jung was a Christian.
I would not hold myself wholly to anyone's standards but Christs. I do, however aknowledge and appreciate other people's work and observation.
Some of it is also quite helpful and I can even say I agree with.
Have you read "the road less traveled" by doctor Scott Peck?
Or "people of the lie" or "different drum" all by Dr. Scott Peck, who is leading your mental health in America, I believe.
He draws from many of these secular thinkers, yet is Christian.
quote:
It really doesn't matter how many Christian terms or Bible quotes you add, if it's a worldly philosophy or practice it remains one despite the addition of Christian overtones. The psychological teachings about ego etc. have absolutely no basis in Christianity and are, in practice, rather opposed to it .
I dissagree. we are starting to see now how much truth the secular world in fact has to offer by their observance and report on say nature, even their contribution to science in some areas has been invaluable.
The devil is a copycat, so in fact he takes truth and distorts it usually for his own self glorifying purposes, to glorify power and money, cause division. Yet it is still derived from truth.
I believe in the new birth and i stressed above that the ego needs to be in Christ, where it is renewed from being self centered to God centered.
You go to a secular doctor for teatment(if I'm wrong about this i stand corrected, but this is the impression i get).
Manda, this is 4 u.
quote:
So in your books it would be okay to get medication and diagnosis off a doctor but don't believe any of their studies,
I assume you know you are hypothyroid because a doctor diagnosed you as such?
if this is the case it seems to me are you putting your faith in truth or the world and it's deception, I can tell you i am a doctor, i can even write up some fake papers to make me credible, are you just gonna believe me, because i have paper, a title and drugs?
Lion of Judah are you able to draw anything dark and sinister from this description?
"New creation" so lets talk about this.
What does this mean to you?
Please don't give me other people's interpretation but speak from a personal level.
< Message edited by Giulia -- 3/9/2006 12:40:40 PM >
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/9/2006 12:59:59 PM
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stateofgrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Giulia
I believe Christians can also be involved in psychology
I do too, but ultimately I believe that everything has to be held to God's standards and perspective, which is presented in His Word. Therefore, when a psychological theory or practice and God's Word don't mesh, it's the psychological theory or practice that I find flawed.
quote:
Have you read "the road less traveled" by doctor Scott Peck?
Or "people of the lie" or "different drum" all by Dr. Scott Peck, who is leading your mental health in America, I believe.
He's a fairly well known author. I don't know where you get the idea that he is "leading our mental health" in the US.
quote:
He draws from many of these secular thinkers, yet is Christian.
He is...or at least was at one point, a professing Christian. That doesn't mean that he is immune from errors in doctorine and/or judtement.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/10/2006 3:57:35 PM
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Giulia
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I know Scott Peck has something to do with mental health and by reading his material I am able to conclude he is better than any mental health spastics I have ever met, or know about.
His books helped me in a time of darkness, especially the People of the lie. It speaks of infiltration of the lie on the mass collective mind as well as believing the lie on a personal level and the deception of self.
I found this book very helpful in my quest for clarity.
And yes I agree that no other authority should be taken above the Word of God.
With discernment I can see much work of objective thinkers holds some truth and is worth careful consideration.
About your commentary on Christian Majik, do you know they told Jesus He had demons too!!!
Matt 12:31
< Message edited by Kath -- 3/10/2006 7:38:56 PM >
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/10/2006 6:52:58 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Giulia
Manda, this is 4 u.
quote:
So in your books it would be okay to get medication and diagnosis off a doctor but don't believe any of their studies,
I assume you know you are hypothyroid because a doctor diagnosed you as such?
if this is the case it seems to me are you putting your faith in truth or the world and it's deception, I can tell you i am a doctor, i can even write up some fake papers to make me credible, are you just gonna believe me, because i have paper, a title and drugs?
I don't regard trusting a doctor as putting my faith in the world. IMO, it was the Lord who gave my doctor his skills in medicine, and I do not regard being treated by a doctor as being in conflict with my Christian faith.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2006 5:11:23 AM
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manda59
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What's your source for this please, salvatore?
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2006 11:18:55 AM
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womaninchrist
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As to whether psychology is compatible with Christianity, I'd suggest those interested in the finer details of that issue visit the theology folders. There are several thread there (often with titles about "psychobabble") that discuss it much more coherently than I can. But I do know that the two don't fit well together. If they did, why have pdocs tried to medicate me into oblivion for religious visions - that others saw (if others saw it, it's not supposed to be ruled psychosis) or that proved to be true (like the many times I've explained things very accurately - that I never should have known) and why have psychiatrists and counselors both used my firm grasp of Christianity as a basis to diagnose me with mental disorders (one even used my Christianity as proof that I had borderline personality disorder)? Why do we want to adopt something that's declared war on Christianity? The medical stuff I have no problem with (though I think parts of it aren't as bad as we make them out to be), the counseling however...
On a more health related note, here's the details of my neurologist visit that I didn't want to put in the other thread...
I have some form of myoclonic activity. The psychiatrists have always tried to treat my bipolar using atypical antipsychotics as mood stabilizers. Atypical antipsychotics have always lead to mood disturbances, twitching like a freak and (after a while) to fleeting audio or visual disturbances that pdocs always ruled to be "breakthrough psychosis" and a reason to up my antipsychotic. Now I know why that never worked.
Turns out that someone with myoclonic activity should NEVER be given long term antipsychotic treatment - because the antipsychotics will induce myoclonic activity and at a certain level, myoclonic activity leads to a psychosis-like (but NOT psychotic) state that can ONLY be treated by lessening the myoclonic stuff - or to mental confusion that also only resolves by lessening the myoclonic activity. So now I know why more antipsychotic always made my mental states worse. Sad part was, he was quite adamant that any competent psychiatrist should have known better and this shouldn't have happened. He said they should have known that someone with myoclonic activity should be treated using antiseizure meds for mood stabilizers.
Unfortunately, with my pattern of reactions to medications, my treatment options are limited to a low dose of topamax (hopefully it'll reduce the myoclonic stuff without inducing the "dopamax effect") and if I go manic I'll just have to be rapidly sedated with either benzodiazapines or very short term (max of a couple weeks) antipsychotic use. It was long ago established that I have to muddle through depressions - antidepressants all send me manic.
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2006 12:55:25 PM
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manda59
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womaninChrist
Have you tried the herbal treatment for depression - St. John's Wort?
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RE: Mental Health Issues - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2006 12:58:35 PM
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agapetos
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I have to kinda muddle through depressions too womaninchrist. When I go down I go down and upping my antidepressants doesn't help at all ~ except to kind of dope me up. And over the years I've been through most of the antidepressants. There's a lot that just don't work for me.
I can take a mood stabiliser though and that has really helped with the highs.
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