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ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon

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I am sure that she and her future husband will thank you immensly!

I hope he doesn't verbalize it to me! There are limits to my balance!

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ORIGINAL: dnp200450

DaveW, you were one of the fortunate ones because many times God does not speak to people in an audible voice. Why did you feel the way you did in the first place? Was it church, parents, both?

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8) If a brother does actually stumble he is likely to leave the church and religion altogether as opposed to facing the wrath and condemnation of the church. Church people may or may not want to associate with him anymore.

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The really weird thing is that those who preach most about the "design flaw" of human biology (sexual desire-awareness-temptation) are the same ones who keep saying men should be the pursers, take risks and find a wife.

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ORIGINAL: DaveW

On the 2nd point, my desires, it was a combination, I was told at home little beyond "That stuff is for marriage," and "That is nasty, dirty, sinful..." etc. Aside from that, silence. At church I got the messages about the evils of sex and lust, and was told many times over that the ONLY reason that someone has sexual desires at all is because they are already sinning by thinking about sex or looking at porn or fantasizing. IOW, if you keep your mind "clean" you will never have any sexual desires to deal with.

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And yeah, the sex = sin connection is STILL there after 32 years of marriage.
As to the guys leaving church instead of facing the music when they fell, I saw an instance of a friend of mine who went thru that. Interestingly, he is the ONLY person I know to ever actually be restored to his ministry after his repentance. He had to stand in front of the whole congregation (including all the women and children) while his sins were described in way too much detail. (did grade school girls realy need to know THAT much detail about male masturbation???)

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And then they wonder why when the guys and gals DO go out, that they end up going too far and get pregnant. This system seems to be set up to maximize failure. Is it really from God?? I don't think so.

We need to take a long hard look at all of this and find a way to help our young men and women get thru this very difficult time of life (when, at least for the guys, the sex drive is at its highest intensity) without sinning.

To do that we really need to take a long hard look at what we call sin.

Is it really sin to feel sexual desire?
Is it really sin to be curious?

Rather, we need to find a way to help them deal with the desires and thoughts and curiosity redemptively.

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ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels

My parents did a good job with this but my christian high school did it all wrong.

They made such a big deal out of purity before marriage, that they gave us false promises.

They basically promised this practically perfect married life if only we remained pure until marriage. Imagine how sad I felt when I learned that wasn't necessarily my good luck charm. And my shock when I realized some spouses who had made that mistake treated one another well, and some who hadn't treated each other poorly. Don't get me wrong, I very much believe in purity before marriage, but they shouldn't have gone around making us promises about our future when only God knows our future.

They also put such an emphasis on it, that for a few years there I had a very harsh attitude to anyone who had stumbled in that area. I think the emphasis for kids needs to be Godliness overall, which includes this...but it's not the centerpiece of chrisitanity. And those who do stumble need to know that they can repent and be given grace. I think when parents are encouraging their kids to wait for marriage, at the same time their kids need to be reassured that they won't be disowned if they do stumble or thrown out on the streets if they do get pregnant.

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ORIGINAL: okrox

And here's a favorite moment from my lovely 18 yr old dd, "Mom, you can talk about sex all you want, as long as you keep it in the third person. Because I don't want to talk about me, and I SURE don't want to hear about you. Keep it abstract, please." LOL. I told her it was a deal.

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The problem with that is that the bible deals with NOTHING in the abstract. It is always real, down to earth life. It is always relational.

IMO sex should NEVER be dealt with in the abstract. It must always be relational. If we as parents discuss it in the abstract rather than from a relational stance, it dehumanizes it, objectifizes it and makes it a very selfish thing. We all rail against porn, but that is the ultimate of making sex abstract. The rise of that industry may be related to society making it abstract in the first place.

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ORIGINAL: DaveW

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ORIGINAL: okrox

And here's a favorite moment from my lovely 18 yr old dd, "Mom, you can talk about sex all you want, as long as you keep it in the third person. Because I don't want to talk about me, and I SURE don't want to hear about you. Keep it abstract, please." LOL. I told her it was a deal.

The problem with that is that the bible deals with NOTHING in the abstract. It is always real, down to earth life. It is always relational.

IMO sex should NEVER be dealt with in the abstract. It must always be relational. If we as parents discuss it in the abstract rather than from a relational stance, it dehumanizes it, objectifizes it and makes it a very selfish thing. We all rail against porn, but that is the ultimate of making sex abstract. The rise of that industry may be related to society making it abstract in the first place.

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I think she meant abstract in that it's about NOT her and NOT her parents. Not that the concepts are abstract.

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ORIGINAL: DaveW

That may be but that is not the way the bible handles stuff. It is personal. It is concrete.

The daughter is afraid of saying what she feels or has done (or hasn't done) and the "There are two kinds of people who never have sex: one is your kids, the other is your parents" statement is meant to enforce that seperation and ignorance. I do not believe that to be a healthy or biblical attitude.

Think about it. Unless one was very wealthy, the living quarters for most people, Jewish or otherwise, thruought history were quite cramped. The kids would have been aware of the sexual activity of their parents. They also saw it in the livestock. It was not a big deal.

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ORIGINAL: DaveW


The daughter is afraid of saying what she feels or has done (or hasn't done)

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ORIGINAL: stellaluna

If any sex talk with my mother (like we'd have one) included the statement, "Your father and I..." I would be gone so fast she wouldn't remember she had a daughter.

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And that, I find just plain insulting.

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ORIGINAL: DaveW

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And that, I find just plain insulting.

My apologies. I did not mean to come off insulting at all. Apparently I missed the joking part of the statement.

But I do think it would be wise to encourage our kids to be more open. And that of necessity would require a degree of openness on our part as well. I am not talking about going into graphic detail or anything like that. But we should encourage an open enough relationship that if they are struggling with something they are not totally freaked out about sharing it.