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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/18/2009 11:30:34 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Feel free to enlighten me briefly on the book. Curious why you recommend it.
Basically, it covers the last paragraph of my Post #88 - how power and control that was once concentrated in the US is being diluted by the growing economic strength of other nations, particularly India, China, and the EU. Zakaria refers to it as the "Rise of the Rest" (contrasted with the "Rise of the West"). It may not be anything new to you, but many folks around here like to argue about foreign relations as if it were still 1990.
Got it. Actually had to study some of that way back when in grad school.
It was predictable. They've got 3x the population, entrepreneurial spirit, high savings rates, decent natural resources. Their productivity growth is 2-3x ours, they've got more people, larger GDP growth.
It's only a matter of time before they catch up, and there's not much we can do about it. Countries that are developing have structural issues in their economy that we've already addressed here in the US. When they fix those, they grow. As they grow, they want more say on international issues.
Pretty simple.
The author would have it right - it's not the decline of the west. It really is the rise of the rest. Think about it - the US got a 50 year head start by not having its economic infrastructure pounded to oblivion in WWII. Folks are catching up - that's a good thing.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/18/2009 11:34:28 AM
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StephK
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Did Obama throw the trial with his statement today?
quote:
Meanwhile, President Obama said in one of a series of TV interviews during his trip to Asia that those offended by the legal privileges given to Mohammed by virtue of getting a civilian trial rather than a military tribunal won't find it "offensive at all when he's convicted and when the death penalty is applied to him."
Obama quickly added that he did not mean to suggest he was prejudging the outcome of Mohammed's trial. "I'm not going to be in that courtroom," he said. "That's the job of the prosecutors, the judge and the jury."
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Stephanie
Envy is always referred to by its political alias, "social justice."
~ Thomas Sowell
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/18/2009 11:44:43 AM
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GroupW
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That statement alone wouldn't throw a trial at all. The executive branch controls the AG & prosecution - they are allowed (and expected to) make those kinds of statements.
Now, if Clarence Thomas or Judge Roberts ( or anyone in the judicial side) have said it, we would have a bit of a problem ....
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/18/2009 11:54:24 AM
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StephK
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He's an attorney and a supposed constitutional scholar. He should know better than to make that statement because a defense attorney will use that on appeal due to the fact that he can't get a fair trial.
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Stephanie
Envy is always referred to by its political alias, "social justice."
~ Thomas Sowell
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/18/2009 11:59:29 AM
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GroupW
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No more so than any other statement that any other person on TV has already made.
There's so much fuel on that fire already, there's precious little additional damage that can be done.
The most they can really do is change the venue from NYC to some other place. You can't let a criminal go free on the basis of not being able to find an impartial jury. All you can do is force a change of venue.
There isn't much risk there. People are making it out to be more than it is.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 11/18/2009 12:05:53 PM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/18/2009 12:06:46 PM
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StephK
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Oh I don't know why people are making a big deal out of this. Holder has a history of letting terrorists go free, FALN. His law firm is representing quite a few detainees. He's rejected KSM's guilty plea and request to die. Obama stated that KSM would get a military trial yet he's one of the first one's to get a civilian trial. I could go on about why some are making a big deal out of this.
< Message edited by StephK -- 11/18/2009 12:13:17 PM >
_____________________________
Stephanie
Envy is always referred to by its political alias, "social justice."
~ Thomas Sowell
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/18/2009 12:12:40 PM
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phreddy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
It's about time the U.S. brings these prisoners to trial. It will not be easy and for sure, the presecution will have some signficant challenges...but I credit this administration for moving the process forward. It would have been far easier to let them sit in Gitmo and let some future administration deal with it...
Moving forward? President Obama canceled their previously scheduled military trials right after he was inaugurated. Congress worked long and hard to make sure that the military tribunals were constitutional. That was one of the delays.
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/18/2009 12:24:10 PM
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GroupW
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Facts:
Salim plead guilty to the attack and was sentenced to 32 yrs in prison.
The Ft Hood shooting was tragic. I don’t care if you call it terrorist or not. Tragic is an appropriate word. (Arguiing over nits here.)
CIPA offers more protections than the author of that article alludes to –
-summaries of classified data instead of the actual reports, ability of the court to strike sensitive data, ...
-in camera procedures, etc.
The defense doesn’t get ALL of it. Only what’s necessary and doesn’t compromise national security.
Edit to add:
Also, classified information never comes into play unless it's part of the prosecution's case. It seems clear to me that you could build a good case without ever coming close to using classified info.
All Holder has to do is avoid using that info.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 11/18/2009 12:56:09 PM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/18/2009 12:26:26 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phreddy
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
It's about time the U.S. brings these prisoners to trial. It will not be easy and for sure, the presecution will have some signficant challenges...but I credit this administration for moving the process forward. It would have been far easier to let them sit in Gitmo and let some future administration deal with it...
Moving forward? President Obama canceled their previously scheduled military trials right after he was inaugurated. Congress worked long and hard to make sure that the military tribunals were constitutional. That was one of the delays.
Even as amended, the military tribunals did not conform to the guidelines set out by the Supreme Court as I understand it. I don't think he had a choice there. We're still a country with checks and balances.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/18/2009 1:24:50 PM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
Saddam had nothing to do with "terrorism on our shores."
Did I in any way suggest he did?
Is getting rid of despots who encourage terrorism, who broke cease fire agreements and tortured and killed many of his own people a bad evil thing to do?
Again, if it was, then what was your solution to Saddam?
I suspect it is very simular to Obama's solution to trying these terrorists...be apologetic and to put their interests first.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/18/2009 1:38:55 PM
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davemiller7
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Gee. I wonder if we should now rescind all the verdicts handed down at Nuremberg, issue apologies to the descendants, make financial reparations, and maybe even allow for the Third Reich to retake power.
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: phreddy
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
It's about time the U.S. brings these prisoners to trial. It will not be easy and for sure, the presecution will have some signficant challenges...but I credit this administration for moving the process forward. It would have been far easier to let them sit in Gitmo and let some future administration deal with it...
Moving forward? President Obama canceled their previously scheduled military trials right after he was inaugurated. Congress worked long and hard to make sure that the military tribunals were constitutional. That was one of the delays.
Even as amended, the military tribunals did not conform to the guidelines set out by the Supreme Court as I understand it. I don't think he had a choice there. We're still a country with checks and balances.
_____________________________
"Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen." - Martin Luther
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/18/2009 1:47:41 PM
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GroupW
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Why would that be? I don't think anything I've said above would cast the nurembueg trials under any cloud. They were public, had reasonably fair rules of evidence, didn't rely on much classified info, and most importantly carried a tremendous amount of international legitimacy.
I'm not quite that radical.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/18/2009 3:27:41 PM
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davemiller7
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My statement was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. The Nuremberg Trials were definitely not held in a our federal court with the equivalent of ACLU lawyers for the defense seeking to make a name for themselves, demanding Miranda Rights and rights provided by the Constitution for U.S. citizens, etc.
There is absolutely no reason to have any kind of trial except a military tribunal. In keeping with the Geneva Convention, the "defendants" could have been shot on sight, since they were not in any military uniform. We gave them a "break" and allowed them to live. They have pled guilty and asked for the death penalty (so they could be martyrs).
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Why would that be? I don't think anything I've said above would cast the nurembueg trials under any cloud. They were public, had reasonably fair rules of evidence, didn't rely on much classified info, and most importantly carried a tremendous amount of international legitimacy.
I'm not quite that radical.
_____________________________
"Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen." - Martin Luther
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/18/2009 9:16:17 PM
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GroupW
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If the only concern was bringing them to justice I would tend to agree. Since we have acted with less than perfect behavior here, we also have to consider our reputation internationally and perceptions of legitimacy. The process has already been somewhat tainted, so at this point we really need the transparency and presumption of impartiality - especially if the death penalty is involved.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/19/2009 11:53:54 AM
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davemiller7
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I don't think there is anything we, as a nation, can do to "please" the international community, short of totally disbanding the government and allowing our land to be taken over by other nations. To try to "please" them is not going to happen, trial or no trial, federal or military.
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
If the only concern was bringing them to justice I would tend to agree. Since we have acted with less than perfect behavior here, we also have to consider our reputation internationally and perceptions of legitimacy. The process has already been somewhat tainted, so at this point we really need the transparency and presumption of impartiality - especially if the death penalty is involved.
_____________________________
"Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen." - Martin Luther
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/19/2009 12:55:40 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
so at this point we really need the transparency and presumption of impartiality - especially if the death penalty is involved.
??????????????
Obama has already declared him guilty and executed.
And that was in another nation.
Which head do we listen to?
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Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/23/2009 12:20:05 PM
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StephK
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Here we go: World meddling in 9/11 show trials begins
_____________________________
Stephanie
Envy is always referred to by its political alias, "social justice."
~ Thomas Sowell
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/23/2009 11:11:37 PM
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GroupW
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The meddling happened quite a while ago. There are a number of countries that refuse to share intelligence or extradite if there is a threat of the death penalty being used or being made possible due to the use of that evidence. These countries have taken the moral position that they will not take part in a capital punishment proceeding.
It was their evidence or their prisoner before they agreed to send it or them over here. They didn't have to do that. I think they are entitled to stand up for their moral standards. We may not agree but we should respect their right as sovereign countries to ensure that whatever agreements were made to secure that evidence or the extradition are honored.
For our part, we should not promise one thing (no capital punishment) but deliver another. We should honor whatever promises were made.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 11/23/2009 11:19:16 PM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/24/2009 10:19:09 AM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
The meddling happened quite a while ago. There are a number of countries that refuse to share intelligence or extradite if there is a threat of the death penalty being used or being made possible due to the use of that evidence. These countries have taken the moral position that they will not take part in a capital punishment proceeding.
It was their evidence or their prisoner before they agreed to send it or them over here. They didn't have to do that. I think they are entitled to stand up for their moral standards. We may not agree but we should respect their right as sovereign countries to ensure that whatever agreements were made to secure that evidence or the extradition are honored.
For our part, we should not promise one thing (no capital punishment) but deliver another. We should honor whatever promises were made.
Greetings
quote:
It was their evidence or their prisoner before they agreed to send it or them over here. They didn't have to do that. I think they are entitled to stand up for their moral standards. We may not agree but we should respect their right as sovereign countries
But then again the symbols of Justice are the blinders and the scales
Their moral standards that they are entitled to stand up for dictate that Justice is blind and Americans are stupid.
LG
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Obama says will insist on justice for 9/11 suspect - 11/24/2009 7:00:42 PM
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GroupW
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Fact is, we made promises. We should keep them.
They had the prisonsers/evidence in their hands and in their jurisdiction. They as a sovereign country can determine the conditions under which they are willing to hand those over to us.
If we negotiate certain terms to get our hands on those people/items then we should respect those terms and conditions.
We may not like their standards, but they have every right to insist upon them within their own borders and to insist that others stand by their agreements.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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