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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/4/2009 7:38:53 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2533
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
I get the message, when the chips are down, the compassionate conservative is a myth.
I try to get something besides the partyline and I get hammered. That's very, very enlightening.
I've felt this way for a number of years now. My party affilations have drifted a bit left as a result, though I have to believe that there exists some middle ground where I actually can be compassionately oriented while being fiscally responsible. (At heart, I'm less liberal than my posts appear. I only play a liberal on Crosswalk.)
I can't say I've found it though.
The search continues ....
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/4/2009 8:10:35 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 2309
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
I get the message, when the chips are down, the compassionate conservative is a myth.
I try to get something besides the partyline and I get hammered. That's very, very enlightening.
I've felt this way for a number of years now. My party affilations have drifted a bit left as a result, though I have to believe that there exists some middle ground where I actually can be compassionately oriented while being fiscally responsible. (At heart, I'm less liberal than my posts appear. I only play a liberal on Crosswalk.)
Yes, socially, I'm pretty much straight up liberal. Economically, I tend to side with the general economic consensus, which tends to cut against both the left and right.
I haven't really drifted all that much over the years though.
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/4/2009 8:33:12 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1845
Joined: 10/25/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
But left to themselves they haven't done a thing except jack up prices and rake in the cash while the rest of the economy is in the toilet. I do not trust the insurance companies to do a single thing unless boxed into a corner.
They haven't been left to themselves. Competition has been prevented via government regulation. Your mistrust is not a reason to force the rest of the nation into a government option.
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/4/2009 8:38:30 PM
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gcsmithjr
Posts: 532
Joined: 11/23/2008
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quote:
I looked up Shadegg's bills. There were 3. His first two had widespread GOP support- the 2005 and 2007 versions and were fiercely resisted by the Dems. His latest version for 2009 he received support from 5 Republicans which is 1/4 of the support he received from the GOP in earlier attempts.
I give Shadegg credit for his efforts, but something doesn't quite add up. The GOP controlled both houses of congress in 2005 - they had 232 seats in the house (vs. 202 Democrats) and 55 in the Senate (vs 45 Democrats), so if the bill had widespread GOP support, why didn't it pass?
Like Eutycus, I'm a conservative who has always voted for Republicans nationally (and 99% of the time locally), but finally changed my party affiliation to Independent before the 2008 elections because the Republican party seemed so clearly out of touch on the issue of health care and the economy.
Somehow the Republicans failed to address the health care issue in any substantive fashion during the time when they controlled the House, Senate and White House. In my opinion, the Republicans lost their credibility on this issue when they passed of the $1.2 TRILLION, Medicare prescription drug benefit in 2003. As if the cost weren't a big enough issue, the Republicans inserted language in the bill that forbids Medicare from using its clout to negotiate with pharmaceutical companies to lower the costs it pays for prescriptions (so much for being in favor of competition). Because of this provision, Medicare pays twice as much on average as the VA (which doesn't have to abide by that limitation) does.
Based on what they pay for prescription drugs, the government-run VA is certainly more efficient that the plan the Republicans passed in 2003, and I haven't seen any credible evidence that the plans that the Republicans have introduced will do anything to address the core issue of cost any better than their attempt at reforming Medicare did.
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/4/2009 8:48:36 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1845
Joined: 10/25/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
My wife is a nurse and assures me that we will see a LOT of doctors simply retire rather than have to operate under a government drivien healthcare system.
My wife is a retired nurse that lost all her insurance when she retired (meaning nothing but a meager 401K she can't touch until age 67) and we're in this boat together. A LOT of doctors are too used to money coming in to pay for their expensive toys that I could never afford to retire.
So two people (close to retirement age?) insurance = $7600/year so a little over $300/person. Or right over 1.5 times what I a much younger person who has only been to the doctor 10 times his whole life (well and physical therapy for a while) pays. My next question is do you use over $3800/year in medical services? If so I don't know what you are complaining about.
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/4/2009 8:51:02 PM
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gcsmithjr
Posts: 532
Joined: 11/23/2008
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quote:
I love this...apparently there is quite a move in DC among some to add an amendment to the healthcare bill that would require Senators and Congressmen to be subject to the same healthcare they're trying to foist on the rest of us.
HERE
AND HERE
Not surprisingly, our wonderful elected officials aren't very happy about this. Expect this amendment, and others like it, to be soundly shot down.
There's a small problem with the statement that members of Congress are covered by "fully tricked-out Cadillac plans...for which we, the taxpayers, are footing the bill". It's not true.
Members of Congress are covered by the same insurance programs that cover ALL Federal employees, and they pay a percentage of their premiums out of pocket, just like the employees of any major company do. Here's a link to a FactCheck.org article that details the coverage they get: FactCheck Article.
Is it better than what's available to the uninsured - absolutely, but it's comparable with the plans offered by most major corporations, which the current legislation would allow to continue for the people who get coverage through their employer.
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/4/2009 9:10:27 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 1894
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
If the threat of people going with a public option will make the greedy insurance companies get competitive,
The pot calling the kettle black here. Greedy? You want the vast majority of americans to suffer so you can take their tax monies and get "free" health care.
Talk about greed.
quote:
the compassionate conservative is a myth.
Lets hope so. Its just another name for RINO....and I must say when your vote can be bought, its not freedom.
quote:
It will be interesting to see what develops with a Public Option... and to see if the premiums are lower and the coverage is comparable to available private plans.
It would seem our congress would prefer not to have the public option....that defines it well I think and I am not so curious I would want to wreck helath care to find out.
A little anecdotal but...doctors supporting public options..well my brother works in a medical field and when they accept a patient on welfare...they...lose...money. I bet most doctors would not like that.
quote:
In short the Dems had no interest in supporting a GOP bill and likewise now that Health Care is a big Dem issue there seems to be no support for it from the GOP.
It seems the public option of the health care proposal is not very popular in a democratic run congress. They do not need one vote from a republican to pass this law, but it does not seem winnable. Hence, its not republicans that have thwarted this public option.
Its the democrats.
It is impossible to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/4/2009 9:14:16 PM
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gcsmithjr
Posts: 532
Joined: 11/23/2008
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quote:
Because they know it will result in higher costs, longer waits, and inevitably, rationing of care. This has been the case every time this sort of government run plan has been tried, so why should we magically believe that it's going to work this time?
We already have an example of a government run plan in this country that refutes each of your points. Medicare is a government-run plan that provides universal coverage to older adults but, instead of longer waits and rationing, according to a national CAHPS survey conducted by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services in 2007, "more than two thirds (70 percent) of traditional Medicare enrollees say they "always" get access to needed care (appointments with specialists or other necessary tests and treatment), compared with 63 percent in Medicare managed care plans and only 51 percent of those with private insurance."
Going beyond that, "56 percent of enrollees in traditional fee-for-service Medicare give their "health plan" a rating of 9 or 10 on a 0-10 scale. Similarly, 60 percent of seniors enrolled in Medicare Managed Care rated their plans a 9 or 10. But according to the CAHPS surveys compiled by HHS, only 40 percent of Americans enrolled in private health insurance gave their plans a 9 or 10 rating."
So, at least according to the people covered by Medicare, they are happier with the coverage, and have better access to care, than people covered by private insurance plans.
I'm certainly no advocating that a public plan is the right solution for everyone, but there is no evidence to support your contention that a government run plan will automatically result in "higher costs, longer waits, and inevitably, rationing of care."
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/4/2009 9:49:08 PM
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parkerbrother
Posts: 384
Joined: 6/7/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
If the public option is so attractive, then why aren't Pelosi, Reid and the rest willing to sign up for it themselves?
Because they know it will result in higher costs, longer waits, and inevitably, rationing of care. This has been the case every time this sort of government run plan has been tried, so why should we magically believe that it's going to work this time?
Neither Pelosi or Reid would qualify for the public option because they are both over 65.
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/4/2009 10:53:12 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 1399
Joined: 9/23/2005
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quote:
Correct, the rest of us, including the ones no longer able to pay, can just lump it. I get the message, when the chips are down, the compassionate conservative is a myth.
I try to get something besides the partyline and I get hammered. That's very, very enlightening.
Nice try, but wrong. What I'm saying is you don't change the rules for everybody to accommodate the minority. Instead you find a way to take care of the few that genuinely need help, as it appears to be in your case.
Revamping the entire healthcare system to placate a small percentage of the population is throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water.
And yes, Investors Business did a poll that indicated up to 45% of health care providers would consider retirement if Obama care passes.
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/5/2009 12:23:41 AM
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Ross.Lang
Posts: 462
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I work for one of the best hospitals on the east coast, one of only a dozen or so nationally to recieve an award from the White House for the quality of care it provides. 93% positive feedback from patients on a unit is considered unacceptably low at this hospital. Last week, a woman coded in the waiting room, waiting to be admitted to the hospital. She had been there for hours. Last week, we had 75 people in emergency waiting for tests for swine flu. Most of them were there 4-6 hours, in a room full of potentially sick people. The next person who tells me that this care is up to par for the richest, most technologically advanced nation in the world gets knocked to the ground and repeatedly kicked in the face. Then they can go to the emergency room and see things first hand, instead of pulling nonsense out of their rear ends. We need the public option, but that isn't enough. We need to change the whole way we do medicine. Anyone who would rather have ANY major procedure done here than in Japan, for example, is certifiably insane.
-Ross
< Message edited by Ross.Lang -- 11/5/2009 12:32:37 AM >
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/5/2009 1:52:50 AM
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tacitus
Posts: 1301
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: online
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I look in on the Health thread on this forum from time to time and I see people on there asking for help getting health insurance. There's someone on there right now who just lost his job and can't get insurance now that his COBRA cover has run out. You guessed it, pre-existing conditions.
The House and the Senate get their own government health plan. It would be nice if they let other people in on their perks so that everyone can have an affordable way to pay.
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/5/2009 2:27:42 AM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2077
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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Yeah, that's just about what happened to me. I was told that even if I went back to school (I'm just out of college), I wouldn't be able to get back on my dad's insurance through his job (and I got denied for individual). I can't work full-time, and I'm trying to find a part-time job w/benefits to work around my classes and research next semester (no luck finding a job in this economy). If you want/need insurance but get denied, you can't force them to let you have a plan.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/5/2009 4:52:28 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1845
Joined: 10/25/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ross.Lang
I work for one of the best hospitals on the east coast, one of only a dozen or so nationally to recieve an award from the White House for the quality of care it provides. 93% positive feedback from patients on a unit is considered unacceptably low at this hospital. Last week, a woman coded in the waiting room, waiting to be admitted to the hospital. She had been there for hours. Last week, we had 75 people in emergency waiting for tests for swine flu. Most of them were there 4-6 hours, in a room full of potentially sick people. The next person who tells me that this care is up to par for the richest, most technologically advanced nation in the world gets knocked to the ground and repeatedly kicked in the face. Then they can go to the emergency room and see things first hand, instead of pulling nonsense out of their rear ends. We need the public option, but that isn't enough. We need to change the whole way we do medicine.
So I guess the answer is open up the service to more people, that's a brilliant idea. If you can't keep up with demand now make the service available to more people?
quote:
Anyone who would rather have ANY major procedure done here than in Japan, for example, is certifiably insane.
-Ross
Tell that to the people who come here to the US when they need major procedures. Oh and for your information the health care plan in the works looks nothing like the Japanese model as far as cost containments and incentives go. Our plan is to spend whatever it takes to give health insurance to everyone too bad we are already broke. I guess we could end up with Japan style national debt of 150% of GDP. Too bad our debt is foreign owned though. The US already runs huge deficits and even without healthcare are projected to worsen then level out at a level higher than the deficit ever was before 2008. That is unsustainable.
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/5/2009 7:00:39 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3040
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
If the threat of people going with a public option will make the greedy insurance companies get competitive,
The "greedy insurance companies" would be forced to be more competitive if the feds would let them compete across state lines.
That sounds good on paper, but I doubt it'll actually work out the way it's intended. Currently, credit cards are available across state lines and are using that to skirt usury laws on the books in most states. The way it works is that state-wide usury laws can only enforced on banks chartered within that state, however customers in that state can get credit cards from banks chartered in any state. CC companies got smart and coerced a couple states to drop their usury laws, and relocated their HQ's to those states. Just like that, they essentially nullified the usury laws in the other 40+ states.
Interstate insurance purchasing can only work if we have sufficient federal regulation establishing minimum standards across the entire country, eliminating the ability of insurance companies to game the system by relocating to states with lax oversight/laws.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/5/2009 3:53:30 PM
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sue244
Posts: 529
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ross.Lang
I work for one of the best hospitals on the east coast, one of only a dozen or so nationally to receive an award from the White House for the quality of care it provides. 93% positive feedback from patients on a unit is considered unacceptably low at this hospital. Last week, a woman coded in the waiting room, waiting to be admitted to the hospital. She had been there for hours. Last week, we had 75 people in emergency waiting for tests for swine flu. Most of them were there 4-6 hours, in a room full of potentially sick people. The next person who tells me that this care is up to par for the richest, most technologically advanced nation in the world gets knocked to the ground and repeatedly kicked in the face. Then they can go to the emergency room and see things first hand, instead of pulling nonsense out of their rear ends. We need the public option, but that isn't enough. We need to change the whole way we do medicine. Anyone who would rather have ANY major procedure done here than in Japan, for example, is certifiably insane.
-Ross
People go to the ER now because they can get "Free" care there. You think its bad now just wait until everyone can get "Free" care.
The Public Option will do one thing and one thing only, make the gap between the health care the rich can get and the poor get wider and put more people in with the poor care. Because the Rich will be able to go anywhere, and hire any doctor from any where in the world to take care of them. Everyone else will have to deal with those doctors who have agreed to work for whatever the govt. is willing to pay.
Or you want another example, look at people who can afford private care vs nursing home in their old age. If there is one thing that growing up with a nurse as a mom has taught me is that I never ever want to end up in a nursing home.
I think it would be a good thing if everyone in Washington had to buy not only into whatever health care bill they may or may not pass, but also have to go onto SS instead of getting their nice pension. That would give them the motivation to fix SS so that they will no longer be stealing from me. (I have no allusions that I will ever see SS when I get to retirement age).
_____________________________
My country owes me nothing. It gave me, as it gives every boy and girl,
a chance. It gave me schooling, independence of action, opportunity for
service and honor.
Equal rights for all, special privileges for none.
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/5/2009 3:54:57 PM
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parkerbrother
Posts: 384
Joined: 6/7/2009
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More stupid grandstanding from Wilson. Why should congresspeople be forced to accept the public option if none of us will be? The health plan the congresspeople have is the exact same plan as the lowest janitor of any federal building.
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/6/2009 4:12:17 PM
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phreddy
Posts: 387
Joined: 3/28/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
My wife is a nurse and assures me that we will see a LOT of doctors simply retire rather than have to operate under a government drivien healthcare system.
My wife is a retired nurse that lost all her insurance when she retired (meaning nothing but a meager 401K she can't touch until age 67) and we're in this boat together. A LOT of doctors are too used to money coming in to pay for their expensive toys that I could never afford to retire.
You might want to talk to an accountant about her 401(k). You do not have to wait until age 67 to access it without penalty. Last time I looked, you could withdraw penalty free at age 55 as long as you took it out in equal annual installments over 5 years.
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/6/2009 4:13:32 PM
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phreddy
Posts: 387
Joined: 3/28/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: parkerbrother
More stupid grandstanding from Wilson. Why should congresspeople be forced to accept the public option if none of us will be? The health plan the congresspeople have is the exact same plan as the lowest janitor of any federal building.
Why should we be forced into a healthcare system that our representatives are afraid to subject themselves to?
They are the proponents for this system, if it is so great, they should be begging to be in it.
< Message edited by phreddy -- 11/6/2009 4:57:51 PM >
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/6/2009 4:23:07 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2533
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ross.Lang
We need to change the whole way we do medicine.
The whole focus on insurance and the mechanics of payment, and ignoring the whole mechanics of the delivery of medical care, is the big tragedy of the whole debate.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: House And Senate Buying Into Public Option... - 11/8/2009 12:51:09 AM
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browneyes222
Posts: 157
Joined: 10/4/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Perhaps because 80% of Americans were and are perfectly happy with the healthcare we have?
Exactly!
The rest of us should not be penalized for those who are not happy or don't have coverage nor should we bankrupt our country over it. There are far better ways to address those who are unable to get coverage. We could expand medicaid, we could issue checks to the uninsured to choose their own private plan and so on. Turning the entire country upside down, penalizing small business and let's face it increasing taxes on top of medicare cutbacks is totally wrong.
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