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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 3:17:42 PM
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ChainSaw
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In regard to the Col. 2 passage I shared...
quote:
Are you saying that the things mentioned in verse 16 at that time (and now) were man made commands? In other words, was Sabbath a man-made commandment? The feast days or holydays a man-made commandment? Was these vain deceit or lies? The dietary Laws in Leviticus, were these man-made laws?
Put another way Sabbath= man-made, nailed to the cross, vain deceit, tradition of men, philosophy...all the things described in verse 8.
holydays= man-made, vain deceit, tradition of men, nailed to the cross...
From vs. 14... written code = law of Moses
Though all the man made fluff is certainly included in Paul's teaching about freedom from the law that stood opposed to us, it also includes the written law which you know full well to be the actual recorded law of Moses, not oral rabbinical law and tradition.
Col. 2:
14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
Furthermore, I did not know rabbinical law was the shadow of the things that were to come (the same things that Hebrews makes reference to and says are already here).
Col. 2:
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Obviously it is the actual Mosaic law about those things that Paul is refering to since he says they are shadows of the reality of Christ.
I'm not trying to start a law discussion. I shared the Col. 2 passage to show how it defends our understanding that the rending of the veil in Hebrews is indeed to be understood as the end of the old Temple system and the law that governed it. If we stay within the scope of that application I'm sure we will not get directed to the law thread. We only need to go so far with that passage to show it does indeed address the actual law of Moses and no farther.
The law that required a veil be erected between the people of God and the mercy seat has been made obsolete by the introduction of a new way that does not actually violate the requirement of a veil, but erects a veil that is torn and effectively opens the way up to the Most Holy Place. This is the wisdom of God MJ can't grasp--how to get around the law without actually being guilty of violating it. In his wisdom God has provided a way that preserves the law of the veil but which does not have the limitations of a veil. This kind of wisdom is exactly the kind of thing MJ cannot accept in any way shape or form--how to overcome the limitations of the law without violating the law. Jesus is the wisdom of God that has come down from God to do just that. Praise God forever.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 11/10/2009 3:27:01 PM >
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 3:29:58 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 129
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
How are we to understand Ezekiel's Temple? Is it 'spiritual' in your opinion or a literal one...both?
It was literal at that time. But for some reason the returning exiles paid no heed to follow the directions given them by God through Ezekiel to build the Temple described. I don't know why. It would have had useful application at that time, if they had just obeyed God to do it. But now that Christ has come, and under the circumstances he did come, there's no reason to go back and try to do what God told them to do at that time. We are the Temple set up where holy sacrifices are made and where the Prince dwells. It's not necessary to build the Temple described in Ezekiel while Christ's actual body is not present to inhabit it and given the reality of our relationship with Christ and the fulfillment of Temple law through the Spirit in this present time.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 11/10/2009 3:38:52 PM >
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 3:45:38 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2940
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, why end the journey? Why not return to it again from time to time to reinforce the nature of Adonai's Kingdom and in other conversations in other venues discuss how it applies to each of our lives.
Returning to the old promises, symbols, mysticism and not walking in the truth, freedom, and joy of the present is akin going on a Carribean vacation, staying in the hotel room and oogling at the brochure instead of going outside and walking in the truth.
Thanks
RC
What is wrong with someone looking at the tourist map as they walk along the beach noting the sites they might otherwise miss. So, you think studying the temple and it's practices, as Adonai commanded them, is mysticism? In it's rawest definition there are things that are mysteries, like the essence of Adonai, but studying them does not mean that studying those things is mysticism as it is commonly understood in conversation.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 4:26:27 PM
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LBolt
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Chainsaw, my brother or Sister, it may be a good study for you as a point of reference to understand rabbinical Judiasm and it's tenets. It will help you understand some of what Paul, Jesus had to contend with. Not all of it was bad. Physical circumsion to be saved was never taught in Torah and it was this that Paul vehemently spoke out against.
Sin, by biblical definition is transgression of the law (Torah). The Torah was not on trial during Christ's crucifixition, it was our rebellion against God and our breaking of His Torah that was judged. The ordinances that was against us and contrary to us were those ordinances that said because you did this...ou deserve to die. We were under the Law penalty of death. Yeshua paid the penalty on calvary. Again, to better understand Romans, Hebrews, Galatians and Paul's words, we must understand the culture of the Jewish people at that time. There's a little more than meets the eye.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 5:13:07 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2940
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Chainsaw, my brother or Sister, it may be a good study for you as a point of reference to understand rabbinical Judiasm and it's tenets. It will help you understand some of what Paul, Jesus had to contend with. Not all of it was bad. Physical circumsion to be saved was never taught in Torah and it was this that Paul vehemently spoke out against.
Sin, by biblical definition is transgression of the law (Torah). The Torah was not on trial during Christ's crucifixition, it was our rebellion against God and our breaking of His Torah that was judged. The ordinances that was against us and contrary to us were those ordinances that said because you did this...ou deserve to die. We were under the Law penalty of death. Yeshua paid the penalty on calvary. Again, to better understand Romans, Hebrews, Galatians and Paul's words, we must understand the culture of the Jewish people at that time. There's a little more than meets the eye.
I hope you will not be offended, but I will direct my admonition to you so I will not be seen as biased. The line of discussion over the last several posts is getting very close to forbidden ground. This thread is about the symbolism of the temple and it's practices, not whether one would follow those practices if there was one today.
It might be best if you limited your discussion to the validity of applying these things to various arguments that have been presented in the past, without discussing the application of the things those arguments propose. If one can reach agreement on the validity of an argument and the supporting interpretations, then the application of that argument can be discussed elsewhere, where it is less likely that one could inadvertently step over the line that has been draw with regard to this topic.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/10/2009 5:19:56 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 8:17:13 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2241
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Chainsaw,
Is the God of the 'OT' different from the God of the 'NT?"
Greetings
Try and picture this...
What was placed inside the Ark of the Covenant (the flesh) was separated or veiled from what was above= "the Spirit… BY the mercy seat
….So the Rending the veil did not eliminate what was inside the Ark of the Covenant... the Rending the veil illuminated it...
Rent = is an opening or hole made by tearing something
Lu 22:19
And He took bread, gave thanks ….and…. “Broke it”,= is an opening or hole made by “tearing” something
...........That breaking in Luke above is a picture of…..The Rending of the veil = when an opening or hole was made …it illuminated that which is inside the Ark of the Covenant, that in turn causes conviction.
John 16:8 -
And when He (HS= the Light) has come, He will “convict”
Mt 5:17 -
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill .=The Rending the veil
....So when the light illuminated the darkness in like manner to (John 1:5)>>> that which was inside the Ark of the Covenant once illuminated causes conviction.
Which is the main reason why to this day the Ark… is no where to be found.
= Lu 19:42 saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, "the things (Plural) that make for your peace! But now "they (plural)... "Are hidden" from your eyes.
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 11/10/2009 8:25:58 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 8:42:31 PM
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ta_mosquito
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
I'm just reiterating what BT said, with the bright red moderator flags, so it's sure to be seen:
The line of discussion over the last several posts is getting very close to forbidden ground. This thread is about the symbolism of the temple and it's practices, not whether one would follow those practices if there was one today.
It might be best if you limited your discussion to the validity of applying these things to various arguments that have been presented in the past, without discussing the application of the things those arguments propose. If one can reach agreement on the validity of an argument and the supporting interpretations, then the application of that argument can be discussed elsewhere, where it is less likely that one could inadvertently step over the line that has been draw with regard to this topic.
Thanks!
Tricia
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/11/2009 12:42:49 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Dispensationalism and probably other man made theologies seeks to compartmentalize God's dealings with man into periods. Human Govt, innocence, promise, law, grace... Other seek to divide it into Adamic Covenant, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, New Covenant...what I'm saying is that God is the same, yesterday, today and forever more.
Why is it so impossible for God to be the same, yesterday, today, and forever and not be able to do different things? In regard to my own family, I'm basically the same person I've been, but because my kids have grown up I don't do or require the same things as I did when they were children. Does that change mean I have changed? Of course not. Circumstances changed, not me. The Temple is a relic of when we were children under the law. You know this understanding is right out of Galatians, LBolt.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I think you may be reading into the rent veil more than is needed.
At the very least, the rent veil means the end of the Temple commandments regarding the Day of Atonement. We don't have to do that anymore. There's no more sin guilt to atone for, LBolt. The law in this regard hasn't been destroyed because of Christ's work. It has simply dried up and disappeared from lack of use now that it is no longer needed. It's still there. There just isn't any more sin guilt to apply the literal laws of atonement to anymore. Why does MJ insist on keeping an unneeded relics of atonement alive when God himself made them obsolete (uneeded, inapplicable, etc.)?
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Yeshua is the High Priest, we have access to the Father through the authority of Yeshua. He's the one who goes into the Holies of Holy and not we in and of ourselves. The verse in Hebrews 10:19, the word Holiest is the Strong's # 39 and it means 'holiest (of all), holy place, sanctuary.' As priest we can enter this place having our conscious purified by the blood of the Lamb, but it is the High Priest who takes our requests behind the veil to the Father. They earthly tabernacle is a figure of the heavenly order. Yeshua goes in on our behalf.
This is how I understand this.
I don't have time to visit this right now, but I think your understanding may need just a bit of adjustment.
And...me and you have gone into the Most Holy Place (H of H's) in the sense that we are a very part of Christ's Body who did go into the H of H's. Wherever Christ is at, there we are. We don't just belong to Him like a possession, we are a part of Him. That's the wise and powerful way that God overcame the law that separated us from God. He attached us to Christ's Body, the one who is completely and totally attached to and unseparated from God the Father. What wisdom! What power! Praise his Holy Name!
The rent veil is the visible evidence and proof of that new reality.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 11/11/2009 12:54:47 PM >
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/11/2009 1:16:39 PM
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LBolt
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When the High Priest went in to the Holies of Holy during Yom Kippur, he would wear the vestments of precious stones signifying each tribe of Israel and at it's personal level representing every individual in the Kingdom of God. So yes when He went in, we went in as well. We identify with Him and He with us.
What Messianic congregation has a literal high priest ( I'm speaking of a man) to go 'behind the veil' into the Temple here on earth to atone for our sins?
This is why I asked what are you talking about. Speaking for most of us who do the feasts including atonement we do them in rememberance to what He has done, is doing and shall do.
Aren't we still awaiting the final redemption of our souls at the appearing of Yeshua when this mortal body puts on immortality?
So we do have something to yet look forward to. It's a shadow of things to come...
Sorry BT, CW administrators, and /Chainsaw for getting off topic and I thank you for the kind rebuke.
The rending of the veil signified the death of the Son on calvary and can also signify the Father rending His garments mourning the death of His Son. The Temple was also referred to by Yeshua as being 'my Father's house.' What's rather significant is that the disciples continued synagogue and Temple life along with the appropiate sacrifices after the resurrection. Since Hebrews specifically refers to the veil being the body of Christ then I would be safe in saying that the viel rent signified His death.
The phrase 'under the law', hebraically is referring to being under the curse or penalty which incurs when someone breaks the law so in that sense we aren't 'under the law.'
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/11/2009 2:08:44 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 129
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
When the High Priest went in to the Holies of Holy during Yom Kippur, he would wear the vestments of precious stones signifying each tribe of Israel and at it's personal level representing every individual in the Kingdom of God. So yes when He went in, we went in as well. We identify with Him and He with us.
Yes, the very thing that came to mind after I posted, along with this:
Eph. 1:19-20
"...his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms..."
Eph. 2:6
"...And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus"
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
What Messianic congregation has a literal high priest ( I'm speaking of a man) to go 'behind the veil' into the Temple here on earth to atone for our sins?
It's no secret that you and others are actually defending another agenda, and one which we are resisting, which we can not talk about openly.
quote:
This is why I asked what are you talking about. Speaking for most of us who do the feasts including atonement we do them in rememberance to what He has done, is doing and shall do.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Day of Atonement had no commerative aspects about it that it could be used as a defense for it's continuation as some of the other OT worship laws are defended. I'm not going any further than what this has to do with Temple activities connected with the sacrifices (which I know means all of them, but the ones that are directly connected).
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
The rending of the veil signified the death of the Son on calvary and can also signify the Father rending His garments mourning the death of His Son.
We know this, but are you purposely defying it as an illustration of the end of, and use of the literal Temple limitations to access the atonement? That's the beauty of the rent veil. It represents both Christ's body rent for us, and the rending of the lawful limitations that stood against us. And because Christ is portrayed as the veil in the Temple it speaks of his work being congruent with the law, not necessarliy opposed to it. That's the beauty of Christ's work. It operates within the requirements of the law yet releases us from it. The torn veil is the effective illustration of that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Since Hebrews specifically refers to the veil being the body of Christ then I would be safe in saying that the viel rent signified His death.
And the death of the law over us. The stripping away of the power of the law, not an abolishment of the law. A law (of the Temle) that now stands, dusty and unneeded and unused on the sidelines of God's plan. As I've said, the torn curtain is a perfect illustration that embraces both of these things, which at first seem contradictory to one another. Which I would add is a very difficult concept for MJ to understand--the end of the law without destroying the law. You have to think spiritually, not Hebraically to get it. Otherwise you stumble for the very same reason, by the very same cause that the Jews don't get it. Hebraic thinking is exactly the limited thinking that keeps them where they are today. To bring that thinking into the church is a big, big mistake.
quote:
The purpose of this thread is to discuss the role of The Temple in Adonai's eternal plan and the siginificance of the rent veil.
I think after all this we can all agree the literal role of the Temple is no longer needed in regard to the ministry within the H of H's. That's why it doesn't matter that it's not here now. And there will never, ever be a need for a literal H of H's ministry from now through eternity. All that's left is to argue over what fragments of Temple worship are left to dust off.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 11/11/2009 2:20:45 PM >
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/11/2009 3:36:53 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 799
Joined: 11/30/2007
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I guess only time will tell.
quote:
And the death of the law over us. The stripping away of the power of the law, not an abolishment of the law. A law (of the Temle) that now stands, dusty and unneeded and unused on the sidelines of God's plan. As I've said, the torn curtain is a perfect illustration that embraces both of these things, which at first seem contradictory to one another. Which I would add is a very difficult concept for MJ to understand--the end of the law without destroying the law. You have to think spiritually, not Hebraically to get it. Otherwise you stumble for the very same reason, by the very same cause that the Jews don't get it. Hebraic thinking is exactly the limited thinking that keeps them where they are today. To bring that thinking into the church is a big, big mistake.
It's this 'spiritual thinking' that has caused me to leave the 'church'... because the 'church' lacks the understanding or fails to see the hebraic undertones of the Bible and as such it has exposed doctrines that Christ nor the apostles never taught.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 11/11/2009 3:43:57 PM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/11/2009 4:45:55 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 10992
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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Closing this thread until I have time to clean up the off topic posts.
Tricia
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< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 11/11/2009 4:51:56 PM >
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