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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/4/2009 10:08:05 AM
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ChainSaw
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quote:
So, you are saying we are all the high priests? Isn't that Yeshua's job?
We are all a part of the Body of Christ. When Christ stands before God he represents all the parts of his Body that are filled with his Spirit. We stand together with Christ behind the curtain before God in that sense.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/4/2009 10:24:56 AM
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ChainSaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: LCannon
Someone has suggested among the issues raised here another was to reveal the ark of the Covenant was no longer present thus the source forgiveness and true sacrifice. Jesus was(is)the True sacrifice and Victory.
Jesus is the Ark of the Covenant, and as Livedloved points out, is where man and God meet in Holy peace and reconciliation. As the priesthood of a New Covenant, we carry Jesus, the Ark of the Covenant, around in the Temple of our bodies during this wilderness journey on earth until the day we are clothed with our heavenly dwelling. Until then, as appointed stewards of the Temple of God, we are careful to keep it pure and undefiled so that the glory of God within it can appear for all to see.
Where do you get that extrapolation? Scriptures please. It does have a nice ring to it, but how do you know it is an accurate portrail of what Adonai intended with regard to the Temple and the Ark.
Jesus fits the descriptions and functions of the literal ark.
We have already spoken of Jesus being the meeting place where God comes down to meet man. The Ark was made of wood overlaid with gold, which speaks of the blend of flesh and deity we see in Christ.
Also, the ark had the testimony inside it. Jesus has come with the testimony of God within him. The ark had the jar of manna in it. Jesus has the manna of life within him that feeds the people of God wandering the wilderness of this earth unto eternal life. The ark had Aarrons staff in it as the sign of God having chosen him above the others, representive of how God has also chosen Jesus and exalted his staff above the others.
This thread has brought me to tears of joyfull worship of how great and awesome our God is and what he has done for us. May he be forever praised...forever, and ever and ever. When I get this full up with him I overflow with joy and peace and contentment. This is the life he died to give me.
Thank offerings are being made in the Temple right now, and the glory of the Lord has filled that place.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/4/2009 11:41:33 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1812
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quote:
Jesus fits the descriptions and functions of the literal ark.
We have already spoken of Jesus being the meeting place where God comes down to meet man. The Ark was made of wood overlaid with gold, which speaks of the blend of flesh and deity we see in Christ.
Also, the ark had the testimony inside it. Jesus has come with the testimony of God within him. The ark had the jar of manna in it. Jesus has the manna of life within him that feeds the people of God wandering the wilderness of this earth unto eternal life. The ark had Aarrons staff in it as the sign of God having chosen him above the others, representive of how God has also chosen Jesus and exalted his staff above the others.
This thread has brought me to tears of joyfull worship of how great and awesome our God is and what he has done for us. May he be forever praised...forever, and ever and ever. When I get this full up with him I overflow with joy and peace and contentment. This is the life he died to give me.
Thank offerings are being made in the Temple right now, and the glory of the Lord has filled that place.
Thanks for this beautiful (yet all too brief  ) description. Yes, these things must be known to be understood.
But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. II Cor 3:18
Living in the glory. . .
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/4/2009 4:00:28 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2938
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
So, you are saying we are all the high priests? Isn't that Yeshua's job?
We are all a part of the Body of Christ. When Christ stands before God he represents all the parts of his Body that are filled with his Spirit. We stand together with Christ behind the curtain before God in that sense.
Once again you have taken something I have not said, faulted me for it and then used the opportunity to bloviate about your interpretation of things, without any reference to the Scriptures except to use them to stone the straw man of your own creation.
I have said nothing about the keeping of HaTorah in this thread, nor would I. That would violate the TOS since there is a thread for that. If you wish to attack me in that regard it would be appreciated if you would also abide by the TOS and attack me in a place where I am permitted to defend my views in that regard.
With your accusation that, "They keep looking at the curtain!", I do not claim to speak for those who claim the monicker of Messianic Judaism. However, I do keep looking at The Veil, for Yeshua is The Veil. As Paul says, (Heb. 10:19-20) "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;". Don't a majority of christian denominations take upon themselves the body of HaMeshiach every week? Also, as beautiful as it may sound, I know of nowhere in the Scriptures that Yeshua is refered to as the Ark.
So, shall we leave aside the speculations, accusations and indoctrinations, and proceed in the examination of the meaning of the Temple and the veil in a more orderly fashion?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/4/2009 4:10:58 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/4/2009 4:18:27 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6722
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, shall we leave aside the speculations, accusations and indoctrinations, and proceed in the examination of the meaning of the Temple and the veil in a more orderly fashion?
So maybe you could ask the queistion that I and others have ask
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quote:
I would think that neither of the above groups can approach God in thier present state; for they are rejecting Christ.
Or maybe you could expand on your interpretation of "Properly approaching God"?
And as you requested; Scriptures please?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/4/2009 5:21:47 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2938
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, shall we leave aside the speculations, accusations and indoctrinations, and proceed in the examination of the meaning of the Temple and the veil in a more orderly fashion?
So maybe you could ask the queistion that I and others have ask
'
quote:
I would think that neither of the above groups can approach God in thier present state; for they are rejecting Christ.
Or maybe you could expand on your interpretation of "Properly approaching God"?
And as you requested; Scriptures please?
Thanks
RC
The details can probably be discovered as we examine the example that Adonai gave us in the Temple. In short, it would be through the shedding of blood. Maybe I cut the passage too short, but Paul tells us in vs. 22 "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Also, as I said above, through the veil. That is a problem with Paul's writings. If one tries to nail things down in an order other than the one he uses, one ends up reprinting the entire book.
Now, if we are to look at the Temple and it's practices, we can discover many of the details. However, before we do that, maybe we should determine the significance of the veil being rent before it gets lost in the shuffle.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/4/2009 6:41:31 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
maybe we should determine the significance of the veil being rent before it gets lost in the shuffle.
What's getting lost in the shuffle, Bluethread? 'Splain?
I thought we'd made clear the significance of the veil being rent.
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/4/2009 6:47:35 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2938
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
maybe we should determine the significance of the veil being rent before it gets lost in the shuffle.
What's getting lost in the shuffle, Bluethread? 'Splain?
I thought we'd made clear the significance of the veil being rent.
You made clear what you thought the significance was. I don't recall accepting that view. Shall I continue explaining an alternative interpretation in light of the actual layout and practices that are prescribed in the Tanach(OT)?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/4/2009 7:04:18 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The details can probably be discovered as we examine the example that Adonai gave us in the Temple. In short, it would be through the shedding of blood. Maybe I cut the passage too short, but Paul tells us in vs. 22 "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Also, as I said above, through the veil. That is a problem with Paul's writings. If one tries to nail things down in an order other than the one he uses, one ends up reprinting the entire book.
Now, if we are to look at the Temple and it's practices, we can discover many of the details. However, before we do that, maybe we should determine the significance of the veil being rent before it gets lost in the shuffle.
Well could you not hyper-spiritualize the answer as much so us bumpkins can understand.
What exactly from the temple and its practices may Christians find to "Properly approach God".
I mean I know I am a simple person, but Scripture tells me that repentance and belief in Christ Jesus as Lord is sufficient.
What else do you think is necessary?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/4/2009 7:15:18 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 129
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quote:
Once again you have taken something I have not said, faulted me for it and then used the opportunity to bloviate about your interpretation of things, without any reference to the Scriptures except to use them to stone the straw man of your own creation.
Can I use this as my signature?
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/4/2009 7:19:55 PM
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Corne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Shall I continue explaining an alternative interpretation in light of the actual layout and practices that are prescribed in the Tanach(OT)?
Well in the other thread I asked a million [added for emphasis ;)] times for you to explain your perspective, so yes, please do so.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 3:32:31 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2938
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Oh, so it's not all about me.  Huh? I'm sorry I was missing your nonacceptance. But I'm listening now. . . so 'splain away.
OK, with your approval, the Scriptures make clear through the revelations to Ezekiel and John, as well as references scattered throughout Paul's writings, the earthly Temple was a microcosm of Adonai's Kingdom. That being the case the layout of the earthly Temple, it's composition, it's furnishings and the activities performed in it give us clues to the nature of Adonai's Kingdom. Now, there are a myriad of arguments over what each of the specifics indicates, so I hope we can stay focused on the veil for now.
In the the Temple there are three precincts, the Holy of Holies, the Holy Place and the outer court. The Holy of Holies is where Adonai Elohiem resides. The Holy place is where only those who are anointed by the blood are permitted to enter. The outer court is where those who are not anointed by the blood are permitted to seek Adonai's favor.
In Adonai's Kingdom there are also three courts and this pattern is expanded. The Holy of Holies is Heaven, for that is where Adonai Elohiem resides. The Holy place is populated by His people, as He said, (Isaiah 61:6) "And you will be called priests of the Lord, you will be named ministers of our God." The outer court is populated with the people from the nations who seek to know Adonai's Ways. Now, let's not get side tracked on what those ways are for now. Let's stay focused on the veil. Suffice it to say they include an understanding of The Sacrifice.
Adonai's people are to assist the people of the nations in understanding Adonai's Ways, as the Levites assisted the people of Israel here on earth. Adonai's people are also to attend to the various duties that Adonai requires in His Temple as the Cohens performed in the Holy Place. Again, let's stay focused for the moment.
One of those duties was the presentation of a sacrifice to Adonai on behalf of all of the people, Israel in the earthly temple and the faithful in Adonai's Kingdom. This is where the veil comes in. Without it the priests would die, because they are not worthy, as we in Adonai's Kingdom are not worthy in ourselves. So, one, who is among the anointed, must risk going beyond the veil to present the blood of the sacrifice for the people in the hopes that it will be accepted. Who this was in heaven was not clear in the time of the the tabernacle and the first two temples.
This is the setting, we have not gotten to the rending of the veil yet and let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's just take a breather here and see if we all get the picture so far.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/5/2009 3:44:29 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 9:28:35 AM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 129
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Oh, so it's not all about me. Huh? I'm sorry I was missing your nonacceptance. But I'm listening now. . . so 'splain away.
OK, with your approval, the Scriptures make clear through the revelations to Ezekiel and John, as well as references scattered throughout Paul's writings, the earthly Temple was a microcosm of Adonai's Kingdom. That being the case the layout of the earthly Temple, it's composition, it's furnishings and the activities performed in it give us clues to the nature of Adonai's Kingdom. Now, there are a myriad of arguments over what each of the specifics indicates, so I hope we can stay focused on the veil for now.
In the the Temple there are three precincts, the Holy of Holies, the Holy Place and the outer court. The Holy of Holies is where Adonai Elohiem resides. The Holy place is where only those who are anointed by the blood are permitted to enter. The outer court is where those who are not anointed by the blood are permitted to seek Adonai's favor.
In Adonai's Kingdom there are also three courts and this pattern is expanded. The Holy of Holies is Heaven, for that is where Adonai Elohiem resides. The Holy place is populated by His people, as He said, (Isaiah 61:6) "And you will be called priests of the Lord, you will be named ministers of our God." The outer court is populated with the people from the nations who seek to know Adonai's Ways. Now, let's not get side tracked on what those ways are for now. Let's stay focused on the veil. Suffice it to say they include an understanding of The Sacrifice.
Adonai's people are to assist the people of the nations in understanding Adonai's Ways, as the Levites assisted the people of Israel here on earth. Adonai's people are also to attend to the various duties that Adonai requires in His Temple as the Cohens performed in the Holy Place. Again, let's stay focused for the moment.
One of those duties was the presentation of a sacrifice to Adonai on behalf of all of the people, Israel in the earthly temple and the faithful in Adonai's Kingdom. This is where the veil comes in. Without it the priests would die, because they are not worthy, as we in Adonai's Kingdom are not worthy in ourselves. So, one, who is among the anointed, must risk going beyond the veil to present the blood of the sacrifice for the people in the hopes that it will be accepted. Who this was in heaven was not clear in the time of the the tabernacle and the first two temples.
This is the setting, we have not gotten to the rending of the veil yet and let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's just take a breather here and see if we all get the picture so far.
Did BlueT just bloviate here? (I haven't looked up the meaning of the word yet, lol!).
On the surface it looks like I'm okay with what's been said so far...(fastening my seat belt now...)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 9:34:04 AM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 129
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
...Chainsaw, I think that'd make a great signature for you. I'd tell you it's a sign of humility to use it but then if you did, you wouldn't be humble anymore.
This is true.
I guess I'll just stick with my humble screen name for now.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 9:55:54 AM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 129
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I have said nothing about the keeping of HaTorah in this thread, nor would I. That would violate the TOS since there is a thread for that. If you wish to attack me in that regard it would be appreciated if you would also abide by the TOS and attack me in a place where I am permitted to defend my views in that regard.
I think it only fair that if you utter anything that even remotely suggests 'properly approaching God' means the old Levitical laws of worship then you owe me a public apology...even just a veiled suggestion that that's what it means (yes, pun intended).
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I do keep looking at The Veil, for Yeshua is The Veil. As Paul says, (Heb. 10:19-20) "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;". Don't a majority of christian denominations take upon themselves the body of HaMeshiach every week?
Just so we're clear here. The veil is not Jesus. The veil is the type, shadow, and illustration of Jesus. Some people (strawmen, lol) think the actual curtain, and other things in the Temple are the very essence and reality of Jesus, so they keep focusing on it, not understanding it's only a picture of Christ, and as a result miss the full revelation of the glory of God, just as Paul points out.
That is all. Continue bloviating... (whatever that means, lol!)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 10:12:35 AM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please desist from using "bloviating" in this thread. It's harassing.
Thank you!
Tricia
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Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 10:57:45 AM
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Liveloved
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I'm still listening.  I mean, I'm getting the 'setting', Bluethread.
I know it's not all about me, just thought I'd let you know I was 'with ya'. LL
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 1:35:55 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2938
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I have said nothing about the keeping of HaTorah in this thread, nor would I. That would violate the TOS since there is a thread for that. If you wish to attack me in that regard it would be appreciated if you would also abide by the TOS and attack me in a place where I am permitted to defend my views in that regard.
I think it only fair that if you utter anything that even remotely suggests 'properly approaching God' means the old Levitical laws of worship then you owe me a public apology...even just a veiled suggestion that that's what it means (yes, pun intended).
This is not the place for discussing specific application of the commandments to specific actions in the believer's life. The point of this thread is to look at the symbols that many use in common speech and determine if the interpretations of those symbols are appropriate. I will be up front and say that I think that using symbols derived from the Tanach(OT) and commemorating those symbols is done in various ways by a multitude of denominations and, therefore, should not be condemned in and of itself. Discussing which ones each denomination chooses and why is beyond the scope of this thread.
Also, if even a veiled attempt to say that the levitical practices are the way to 'properly approaching God' would require a public apology, then even a veiled attempt to draw such a response out of another person would be considered provocative and diserving of derision. I would hope that this limitation does not include discussing how the earthly Temple, it's composition, it's furnishings and the activities performed in it give us clues to the nature of Adonai's Kingdom. If that is the case, we will have to stop now and I hope no one ever uses the veil in there arguments ever again. I say this because the veil is a furnishing of the Temple and a proper reference to it would require an understanding of it's original usage.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I do keep looking at The Veil, for Yeshua is The Veil. As Paul says, (Heb. 10:19-20) "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;". Don't a majority of christian denominations take upon themselves the body of HaMeshiach every week?
Just so we're clear here. The veil is not Jesus. The veil is the type, shadow, and illustration of Jesus. Some people (strawmen, lol) think the actual curtain, and other things in the Temple are the very essence and reality of Jesus, so they keep focusing on it, not understanding it's only a picture of Christ, and as a result miss the full revelation of the glory of God, just as Paul points out.
I agree that viewing earthly objects as anything more than symbols is idolatry and is probably one of the reasons way we no longer have a Temple here on earth. That is many were giving the Temple more significance than it was ever intended to have. However, I would say that He is The Veil in the Kingdom of Adonai, which the veil in the Temple represents. I will make clear what I mean by this as as we proceed. Shall we proceed?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/5/2009 1:48:38 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 2:14:16 PM
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LBolt
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Proceed.
The Scriptures clearly reveal that the veil is Messiah's flesh. Behind the veil is the Ark of the Testimony, the mercy seat, table of shewbread and the menorah. This does all point to Jesus. Having a new heart and a new covenant gives us the right to partake of the true bread or the hidden manna. A heart that is bent towards disobeying God is a heart that is like the children of Israel in the wilderness. Which is why He is the mediator of a better covenant which is a conscious sprinkled clean or a renewed heart. What is better is that we have a new heart and a new Spirit not like the stony heart which is unable to keep God's teachings and instructions.
The cleansing and purging was our conscience, which is another way of saying our heart, He accomplished this at calvary.
"From dead works" pertains to our transgressions or failure to obey God's teachings and instructions. The sacrifice does not give us a license to sin it paid the penalty for it.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 2:25:11 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2938
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Proceed.
Thank you. I am glad you have joined the conversation. However, we have a motion on the floor, as they say, and ChainSaw is the one with the concern. So, I will need to give him adequate time to respond.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 2:55:01 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Proceed.
Thank you. I am glad you have joined the conversation. However, we have a motion on the floor, as they say, and ChainSaw is the one with the concern. So, I will need to give him adequate time to respond.
Proceed.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 4:02:59 PM
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LBolt
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Let's also keep in mind that the Temple represents His Body, hence when Messiah said destroy this "Temple and I will raise it up..."
Our bodies our the Temple of the Holy Ghost...
So when the veil was rent in the literal building or edifice it was like a response to Christ's temple being rent...or the Father's grief over the death of His Son, kind of like the rending of one's garments signifying mourning.
You can draw different analogies without doing damage to the text.
In 2 Cor. 3, the veil was over the hearts of the people symbolizing a heart not rent or broken before God but instead hardhearted or stubborn.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 11/5/2009 4:17:28 PM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 4:31:54 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2938
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
Proceed.
Good. Given what has been laid out in post #38, What occured when the veil was rent? Did the doors of the outer court fall down? Did the water in the basin turn to blood? Did the brazen alter disintegrate into a pile of ashes? How about the menorah, did it turn into a golden puddle? Did the table of shewbread collapse? Was the alter of incense effected? It was right in front of the veil. We have no record of any of these things or anything like them happening. So, what happened to the veil does not appear to have effected those things. There may have been a change of those things, but one must make a different argument in that regard. The rending of the veil can not be the proximate cause of that.
So, what did happen when the veil was torn? What happened to the ark? It has been suggested that it was not there, but I have never seen a reputable record of that. Were the manna, staff, tablets of stone, or copy of HaTorah missing? We have no record of that either. So, the difference is that these things were revealed to the priests, that is Adonai's people in the analogy we have seen before. In fact, Peter reinforces this when he says, (1Pe 2:9) "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."
The veil, which is the flesh of Yeshua in Adonai's Kingdom, as we have seen earlier, has been rent and it is trough that rent veil that we pass as we approach the throne of grace. Now, if will notice below, Paul does not tell us that we approach a "new" throne of grace or a changed throne of grace. He tells us we approach the Throne of Grace, the Mercy Seat, that abides between the Cherbim in Heaven.
Heb 4:16 "Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need."
So, we see the only thing that changed in the Temple when the veil was rent was that those who were anointed with blood (the priest on earth and Adonai's people in His kingdom) were given access to Adonai through the torn veil(body of Yeshua).
Now, if one wishes to argue that something else changed, they must either show how access to Adonai through the torn veil(body of Yeshua) effected that change on a case by case basis or find some other justification for such a change. The rending of the veil(body of Yeshua) in and of itself does not appear justify an extrapolation to anything else in the earthly Temple or Adonai's Kingdom.
As promised I am not saying things have not changed nor have I suggested that one needs to do anything in the manner that it was done before. All I am pointing out is that the lesson of the rent veil is that we have access to Adonai through Yeshua HaMeshiach(Adonai's Salvation the Anointed One). As far as I can tell, nothing else is stated or implied in the Scriptures with regard to the rending of the veil.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/5/2009 4:48:12 PM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 6:12:17 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 129
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...All I am pointing out is that the lesson of the rent veil is that we have access to Adonai through Yeshua HaMeshiach(Adonai's Salvation the Anointed One). As far as I can tell, nothing else is stated or implied in the Scriptures with regard to the rending of the veil.
Maybe I'm not following the thread close enough, but what else has someone stated or implied from the scriptures regarding the rending of the veil? As far as I know, what you shared is what we've all been saying, too. Hebrews 9:7-8 seems to say it all...
"...only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing."
The author says while the system of 'entering only once a year', and 'never without blood' was still in effect the way into the Most Holy Place remained undisclosed. He's saying that system had to be removed in order for the "new and living way" (Heb. 10:20) into the place of atonement could be revealed for us--that is, Jesus. Symbolically, the rending of the curtain demonstrates the end of the old way and the beginning of the new way, the details of which is what the book of Hebrews is all about.
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