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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 4:44:58 PM
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WalkingwithHim2
Posts: 2470
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
Seriously though, Rich I think most women understand sexual temptation just fine. Remember we are called to capture every thought and make it a slave to Christ not capture every thought unless the women around you refuse to dress in full coverage from neck, to wrist, to toe.
I'm not saying women cannot be or are not visual - but I do think we men are more visually stimulated.
How can you say that? Can you read our minds or something?
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 4:45:38 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1142
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
Hmm.. I wonder: were you talking about the Christian women mentioned in the OP, about the women participating in this thread, or both?
Women in general. Especially women in my time, women in their mid-late 20s and early 30s. These women, IMO, tended to be rather immature for their ages. For a variety of reasons I won't get into here - but one reason was their very poor understanding of men, and because they did not understand, they were quick to judge and to condemn.
It's another discussion, but that judgmental attitude on the part of so many immature believers really irks me.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 4:46:43 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1142
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WalkingwithHim2
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
Seriously though, Rich I think most women understand sexual temptation just fine. Remember we are called to capture every thought and make it a slave to Christ not capture every thought unless the women around you refuse to dress in full coverage from neck, to wrist, to toe.
I'm not saying women cannot be or are not visual - but I do think we men are more visually stimulated.
How can you say that? Can you read our minds or something?
Come to New York City in the summer. Women don't wear much. can the same be said of men?
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 4:59:07 PM
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WalkingwithHim2
Posts: 2470
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: WalkingwithHim2
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
Seriously though, Rich I think most women understand sexual temptation just fine. Remember we are called to capture every thought and make it a slave to Christ not capture every thought unless the women around you refuse to dress in full coverage from neck, to wrist, to toe.
I'm not saying women cannot be or are not visual - but I do think we men are more visually stimulated.
How can you say that? Can you read our minds or something?
Come to New York City in the summer. Women don't wear much. can the same be said of men?
You have an issue with the way an "entire" city of women dress? Seriously? So alllll of the women who live in NY City run around half naked?
There are quite a few Christian women in these very forums who live in or work in NY City and I do not believe they are flaunting all. Nor do I believe that anyone of them is getting dressed in the morning with the express intent of causing you to stumble.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 5:02:07 PM
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HisLamb26
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quote:
Come to New York City in the summer. Women don't wear much. can the same be said of men?
Indeed it can. I spend plenty of time in gyms, in the weight area where men tend to congregate-and cold or warm-I am subjected to half dressed and sometimes quite fit men. REGARDLESS of their state of dress and level of fitness-the onus is on ME to mind my workout, and ignore the hot bods next to me.
(O yea-that's right. I forgot. I am female. I am not supposed to notice the muscle rippling hot bods pumping iron next to me.....)
< Message edited by HisLamb26 -- 11/4/2009 5:08:33 PM >
_____________________________
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 5:10:30 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2104
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
Hmm.. I wonder: were you talking about the Christian women mentioned in the OP, about the women participating in this thread, or both?
Women in general. Especially women in my time, women in their mid-late 20s and early 30s. These women, IMO, tended to be rather immature for their ages. For a variety of reasons I won't get into here - but one reason was their very poor understanding of men, and because they did not understand, they were quick to judge and to condemn.
It's another discussion, but that judgmental attitude on the part of so many immature believers really irks me.
RichLP:
Sounds as if you are speaking about the 20-something and 30-something women you've been around, rather than the women participating in (and perhaps, those reading and not posting, as well) this thread. It will help your case if you state as such.
Though I cannot claim ontological knowledge of what men go through, as I am not one, I do have some epistemological knowledge, either that I have sought or that has been given to me. And as I have stated upthread, I believe that I am supposed to use that knowledge to help my brothers in Christ, as far as I am able and have control and influence in things. Surely, I am not alone in this, though others may not have expressed it.
So please, do give the women in this thread some credit. And do not discount our ardent and sincere desire to cheer on and help our brothers (even if sometimes we succumb to our own fleshly desires and do seek y'all's attention wrongly).
Please do forgive us when we do what fulfills us in ways that sets a stumbling block before you --- for we do not know by experience what the burden on men feels like. I have already admitted that I have done it in the past. It was and is sin, and I admit it. Will you forgive me for feeding my flesh and sinning not only against God but also against my brothers in Christ (and men in general)?
You men can do much to help us help you if you will try to explain -- in appropriate settings and with appropriate words, of course -- what it's like to suffer such temptation.
I do believe we are to have compassion on one another.
But please, please do not lump all women into a category. I believe you know better than that.
< Message edited by Elena1030 -- 11/4/2009 5:19:33 PM >
_____________________________
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 5:32:02 PM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1453
Joined: 3/13/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
After reading this forum, I conclude that as nice as it is for women to support their Christian brothers' efforts to be pure, that these Christian women nonetheless just do not know how strong sexual temptation is.
No we probably dont totally understand but many of us try to. This is why Paul tells women to dress not to draw attention to themselves and to be modest. This is why most of us do that becuase we do care about the struggle that many men do have.This is why I care about what women in the church do or dont wear, because it makes it hard for you guys. This is why I would never condemn a man who struggles with trying not to look at a women who is dressing very provocatively. This is why I feel strongly that the church leaders need to deal with this when it happens.
Many of do try to understand how you struggle and that is why we want to deal with this issue. We are supposed to be different from the world but many times we simply arent.
God Bless you
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 5:39:25 PM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1453
Joined: 3/13/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
Seriously though, Rich I think most women understand sexual temptation just fine. Remember we are called to capture every thought and make it a slave to Christ not capture every thought unless the women around you refuse to dress in full coverage from neck, to wrist, to toe.
I'm not saying women cannot be or are not visual - but I do think we men are more visually stimulated.
I agree totally. Men definately are much more visually stimulated than women, That is why there are many many mens porn mags and not women's porn mags. That is why women tend to get more turned on by romance books and such like and men get more turned on by naked women. That is why there are many many more men hooked on online porn than women. That is why we get many many women on forums whose husbands are addicted to porn and never get any men saying that their wives are addicted to porn.
That is why sexy women are used to sell mens thinsg such as cars, after shave etc.The media knows it to be a fact.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 6:54:27 PM
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BelleWeather
Posts: 715
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: New York City
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
Come to New York City in the summer. Women don't wear much. can the same be said of men?
I live and work in New York City...on the subway...in the summer...oy.
Sure, there is plenty of flesh to go around, male and female. It's not pretty.
And there are many people who are fully dressed, doing the best they can, under the worst of city dweller summer conditions. I happen to be one of them.
I wear proper undergarments. My clothing is cut not to expose my assets. I check my appearance before I go out the door. And what everyone else chooses to imagine or fantasize about my appearance, I cannot do much about.....short of wearing a cardboard box. Wouldn't that be fetching?
But that isn't what you're talking about, is it?
Men have a dickens of a time controlling themselves when a woman, any woman, comes into view......
Breath......slowly.
Her cardboard box is a lovely shade of tan.
Breath...it's okay
It's an Atlas Movers dish barrel...nice and a very good choice! Modest.
It accentuates her eyes and skin tone. WAIT!
Is that an wrist?!!!
GAAAA!!!!!
AN ELBOW!!!!!!
Whatever shall I do? I have fallen under her siren's song....I am looooooost!
The vixen has tempted fate, and me with it....What a world....What a world.....
The insistence that your genital qualifications trump my going-about-my-business is nonsense.
You seek to restrict and define--where when how why---all women live their lives. You say you don't blame women, but we are the source of your temptation: An expression of the degree of threat we pose to you and the vulnerability of your position.
_____________________________
We think we fathom the depths
when we are just skimming the surface with our finger.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 8:35:41 PM
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Lea_3
Posts: 295
Joined: 3/7/2006
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BelleWeather, you make me laugh!
Honestly, I used to live in NYC and I never once saw people's parts hanging out horrendously...here in the Midwest I think it's even worse because "tanning" seems to be so much more obvious and widespread here.
What happens in this situation-- you're told you're "too cute" or too pretty and therefore, are a distraction to men? I visited a church this past weekend where I introduced myself to the pastor before service started and I took a seat during the sermon. Well, it seemed that I attracted certain men looking my direction...later the pastor joked to me that I was "serving as a distraction" to the men in the church. Granted, I doubt many of those men see Indian women very much, but still. I kinda didn't know how to respond to that statement. And I was wearing only a stitch of makeup. I didn't dress in a flashy manner. I tend to cover up a lot-- I could seriously fit in the 40's and 50's with my layered cardigan sweaters  .
I also used to have a classmate who is absolutely GORGEOUS-- with long blond hair, blue eyed, with an hourglass figure-- yet wears sweatshirts, jeans, and the occasional long skirt. She once invited me to her church because her dad is a pastor and you should have seen the looks she was getting! It was ridiculous. I doubt many of those guys knew she was the pastor's daughter, because after the service there was a social and at least 3 guys hit on her. Outright hit on her. And she was wearing a sweater and jeans. Should she have rubbed her face with dirt? Maybe that would have helped with the sexual temptation. Shame on her for being so beautiful! 
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 10:04:25 PM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1453
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lea_3
BelleWeather, you make me laugh!
Honestly, I used to live in NYC and I never once saw people's parts hanging out horrendously...here in the Midwest I think it's even worse because "tanning" seems to be so much more obvious and widespread here.
What happens in this situation-- you're told you're "too cute" or too pretty and therefore, are a distraction to men? I visited a church this past weekend where I introduced myself to the pastor before service started and I took a seat during the sermon. Well, it seemed that I attracted certain men looking my direction...later the pastor joked to me that I was "serving as a distraction" to the men in the church. Granted, I doubt many of those men see Indian women very much, but still. I kinda didn't know how to respond to that statement. And I was wearing only a stitch of makeup. I didn't dress in a flashy manner. I tend to cover up a lot-- I could seriously fit in the 40's and 50's with my layered cardigan sweaters .
I also used to have a classmate who is absolutely GORGEOUS-- with long blond hair, blue eyed, with an hourglass figure-- yet wears sweatshirts, jeans, and the occasional long skirt. She once invited me to her church because her dad is a pastor and you should have seen the looks she was getting! It was ridiculous. I doubt many of those guys knew she was the pastor's daughter, because after the service there was a social and at least 3 guys hit on her. Outright hit on her. And she was wearing a sweater and jeans. Should she have rubbed her face with dirt? Maybe that would have helped with the sexual temptation. Shame on her for being so beautiful!
In the situations that you mention, there was nothng either you nor the other lady could do. if you and she were dressing modestly then you werent to blame. Many men wouldnt have stared, they would have been far too godly, but clearly some did and that is down to them.
If you or she had been dressing immodestly then you would certainly have been partly to blame, but in these cases neither of you were..
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 10:30:38 PM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1453
Joined: 3/13/2009
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: WalkingwithHim2
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
Well Walkingwithhim-Drop the curvy and makeup wearing and I am too.
I can't drop the curvy  and if I drop the make up I will skeer everyone! 
I ought to be taken out back and shot for never taking the time to put on makeup. I know better -- sort of.
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
I wonder if we (men AND women) will ever stop blaming the other for our sin? I know we have the example of the garden and all - the women You gave me...the snake decieved me...blah blah blah 
I think I'll strive to stop blaming and start looking in the mirror...literally..
I'm not blaming women. I'm just saying women don't know what it's like to be a man facing sexual temptation. It's hard for us.
Rich, Rich, Rich. I am trying to resist the temptation to cry, "Weep!" It amazes me how many people fall for the media's message that the men have a harder time than the women. Amazing. You Cannot Measure what women think by what you think, nor can we women measure what you think by what we think. HOWEVER! If you think that there are not just as many temptations for a woman to be distracted visually, you are wrong!
I think it is sad that some women wont accept the fact that men are more visually stimulated than women.Why is it so hard to believe?It is part of life, theres no denying it.Its clear as day and all around us.Why do we think that so many women dress immodestly or provocatively?
Why is it when this fashion of guys having their trousers hanging down and wearing their boxers hanging out produced mostly cries of 'yuk' from women, when the fashion of a couple of years ago where women wore those low trousers and their g-strings or other underwear showing above them produced a VERY different reaction from men.
Maybe read the books called 'for men only' and 'for women only' by Shaunti feldhahn They give a clear message. men and women are different in many areas and this is one of them.Or one of the many other books about the differences between men and women?
.Why does the Bible itself tell men not to look at women with lust and not tell women this?. Why does it tell women not to dress in certain ways and not tell men this? Why did Job make that covenant with his eyes not to look with lust at a women?That is because God knows us and what we struggle with.
Men in general are tempted to look at women and women in general are tempted to dress to get attention from men, hense Pauls instructions.. God knows us far too well and He created us after all.
If you see young people going out to a nightclub for example, many of the girls will be dressed in very short dresses/skirts, high heels, low cut tops etc while the guys will be dressed in trousers and a shirt or short sleeved t-shirt, in other words they will be covered up, and yet they want to attract the girls as much as the girls want to attract the guys.We are attracted by different things. Always have been and always will be.
I actually am quite amazed that anyone could not see this, I thought it was extreemly common knowledge.Look at the porn mags, How many have naked men and how many have naked women? There may be a small number of women who are interested in porn but by far the majority of porn users are men. Women are far more turned on by the way a man behaves, what he says, how he treats her, romance, etc etc..
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/5/2009 12:20:47 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1142
Joined: 5/4/2005
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Dear sisters (especially BelleWeather) I will address you all on Thursday. I'm about to sleep, and I'm still quietly celebrating the New York Yankees' 27th World Series win. Belle, I hope you're a Yankee fan.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/5/2009 7:48:14 AM
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BelleWeather
Posts: 715
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: New York City
Status: offline
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<heavy sigh>
quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
I think it is sad that some women wont accept the fact that men are more visually stimulated than women.Why is it so hard to believe?It is part of life, theres no denying it.Its clear as day and all around us.Why do we think that so many women dress immodestly or provocatively?
I'm wearing a box!!!What do you want from me??????
All kidding aside:
I'm well aware that menaremorevisuallystimulatedthanwomen.
I am not, nor have I ever been a member of this roving gang of nearly naked women, shaking their resources at the male population, tempting them into perdition. The International Sisterhood, Local 9052 bylaws expressly prohibit union members working at non-union venues without representation.
This is my life--
I am a former Russian immigrant/present U.S. citizen.
I live and work on the island of Manhattan, aka: the Island of Beautiful Women.
These women come from all over the world to participate and contribute in the islands many business, publishing and artistic opportunities.
I am a competitive professional Latin dancer on the Island of Beautiful Women.
I have been training for international competition for the last 15 years.
I am in the best physical shape of my life.
As a dancer, I am intimately aware of my physicality in the space around me, and with others.
As a dancer and a woman, I am intimately aware of the effect of my physicality on myself, and others.
I am respectful of social mores and traditions of my adopted country, and act appropriately to the situation.
quote:
Why is it when this fashion of guys having their trousers hanging down and wearing their boxers hanging out produced mostly cries of 'yuk' from women, when the fashion of a couple of years ago where women wore those low trousers and their g-strings or other underwear showing above them produced a VERY different reaction from men.
I find both situations gross fashion faux pas, and in very bad taste.
quote:
Maybe read the books called 'for men only' and 'for women only' by Shaunti feldhahn They give a clear message. men and women are different in many areas and this is one of them.Or one of the many other books about the differences between men and women?
.Why does the Bible itself tell men not to look at women with lust and not tell women this?. Why does it tell women not to dress in certain ways and not tell men this? Why did Job make that covenant with his eyes not to look with lust at a women?That is because God knows us and what we struggle with.
I understand the responsibility I have and accept it graciously.
quote:
Men in general are tempted to look at women and women in general are tempted to dress to get attention from men, hense Pauls instructions.. God knows us far too well and He created us after all.
YesYesYesYes
quote:
If you see young people going out to a nightclub for example, many of the girls will be dressed in very short dresses/skirts, high heels, low cut tops etc while the guys will be dressed in trousers and a shirt or short sleeved t-shirt, in other words they will be covered up, and yet they want to attract the girls as much as the girls want to attract the guys.We are attracted by different things. Always have been and always will be.
All the clubs I attend have dress codes. The men are in professional wear (suits, sports jackets and slacks), the women in dresses (dressy, no stripper/pro clothes). No gang colors or sports clothes.
I'm not naive. I am well aware why women dress in a provocative manner, and why men like it.
quote:
I actually am quite amazed that anyone could not see this, I thought it was extreemly common knowledge.Look at the porn mags, How many have naked men and how many have naked women? There may be a small number of women who are interested in porn but by far the majority of porn users are men. Women are far more turned on by the way a man behaves, what he says, how he treats her, romance, etc etc..
There is no need to speak to us as if we cracked out of the egg yesterday.
I don't need to look at porn to know why the nudity of both sexes has it's utility.
But it's disingenuous to think only a few women look at men and imagine "what's goin' on there."
The onus is on me to have charge of my flesh and desire in the presence of provocation. Same as anyone else.
It is not easy for me either.
_____________________________
We think we fathom the depths
when we are just skimming the surface with our finger.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/5/2009 8:08:20 AM
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jhuperetes
Posts: 472
Status: offline
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Peace.
I seriously think we are looking at the same thing and we are in general on the same page.
Let's move on. I think we wrung this out quite a few times.
Time to break out the ribs & BBQ sauce and enjoy a nice meal together. I hear birch beer is good, this time of the year.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/5/2009 8:12:00 AM
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SurpassingPeace
Posts: 807
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: online
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No, no please don't stop now. I have to go look at some porn mags first so I can understand better. (I am really just joking here.)
_____________________________
Karen
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/5/2009 8:15:59 AM
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SurpassingPeace
Posts: 807
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: online
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By the way Belleweather, you do latin dance in a box? That is really impressive. You have talent.
_____________________________
Karen
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/5/2009 8:32:55 AM
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BelleWeather
Posts: 715
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: New York City
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
By the way Belleweather, you do latin dance in a box? That is really impressive. You have talent.
; )
_____________________________
We think we fathom the depths
when we are just skimming the surface with our finger.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/5/2009 9:38:51 AM
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SurpassingPeace
Posts: 807
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: online
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On a serious note, I am curious about what you think of, for lack of a better word, situational modesty. The situations that come to mind are, for example, working out. I run. When I run I wear tight fitting lycra knee pants and a tank top and sports bra. The reason is purely for comfort. Baggier clothing and simply more clothing actually causes some chafing and I get overheated. Also, swimming is another. I swim for exercise. It is a athletic suit, not really high cut or low cut. But it does show a lot of skin comparatively. When I work out I do not wear makeup, I wrap my head in a bandana (did I mention I sweat so much I am stinky? Seriously, close friends keep their distantce after a workout.), and I cannot believe that anyone would think attracting men was anywhere on my mind. Everyone at my gym knows I am a happily married woman that will be friendly but not open to flirting or sexual banter. I am very upfront with my committment to God and my husband. That pretty much stops a repeat attempt.
In my daily life, I dress modestly. I wear jeans, sweaters, shirts, t-shirts. I like looking stylish or more to the point, well groomed but I am not interested in showing off my goods. Well, other than my husband but that is a different story. I am happy that I am not voluptuously built so I would have to try to show off my assets.
I think part of "modestly is subjective" mentality goes back to the above. In my mind, I am a chaste, modest woman. My husband is in complete agreement with me on this. I know when someone is hitting on me and I am not afraid to say 'Thanks but no thanks" or "Get lost" depending on the manner it was delivered. However, I know there are people out there that would say I am not modest because I choose to not be covered from let's say elbow to knees in loose, flowing clothing.
So, what do you say?
_____________________________
Karen
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/5/2009 9:54:29 AM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 662
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
After reading this forum, I conclude that as nice as it is for women to support their Christian brothers' efforts to be pure, that these Christian women nonetheless just do not know how strong sexual temptation is.
It's generalities like this that kill me. I would say that this is another one of those scenarios that it seems a man is blaming a woman. People temptation IS NOT WRONG, it is the actions and thoughts that follow the temptation that is right or wrong. I believe to purposely tempt someone so that they stumble is wrong, I believe that we need to be aware of weaknesses of those around us, but If you stumble in the time of temptation, you can blame only one person, YOURSELF.
I believe sexual temptation is strong amongst men in the church is because we don't honestly talk about it. I believe when we admit our problem, it holds us accountable, it allows someone to encourage us and it allows God to help us. Sexual temptation has nothing to do with the woman you look at, it has everything to do with you and your heart condition. Why is that so hard for people to understand? As long as we as men in the church keep blaming everyone else for our sin and short coming we deny Jesus the chance to help us. Instead of blaming the woman in the church for dressing"immodest" we need to be on our face before God asking for help and in company with a group of Godly men asking for accountability.
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/5/2009 12:58:53 PM
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mrtigger
Posts: 272
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
So don't tell me men don't dress to attract female attention, and women don't lust visually. I'm not buying it because I have seen and experienced differently first hand.
I have no doubt that men would use skimpy/immodest clothing to attract females if it worked well.
My experience though is that it doesn't work that well for guys. In my younger & obnoxious days, I used to wear speedos to get a reaction from women. I was in good shape too - not a body builder but I worked out and was muscly. But I found most women didn't seem to react to it and of those that did, I got disgusted looks just about as often as I got approval.
Flirting women up seemed to work a lot better than clothing for getting their attention/approval.
So, I agree with you that guys can and do try to get women stirred up and probably just as much as women do that to men. But revealing clothing for guys is not very effective at that. If it was, I guarantee you many guys would use it.
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mr tigger
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