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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 9:27:11 AM
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HisLamb26
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quote:
Question ~ is the percentage of porn addiction in the church greater or less than the percentage of women who deliberately and consistently dress like hookers to go to church? Is there a serious imbalance in the proportion of threads devoted to each problem? Why is that and why, when women get frustrated about it, do we get accused of just wanting to dress the way we want? As though that's the only possible reason we could have for speaking out against the things that are said.
Gentlemen, out of all the times over all the years you've been to church and all the times, out of all the women who've ever been there, you've seen women dressed immodestly, does that number compare with the porn use among Christian men? If the more mature Christians are failing at teaching the younger....who is failing most? And which is the more damaging problem? How many problems in the marriage folder involve the husband's use of porn and how many that some woman is dressing scantily for church? It seems to me that Christian men really do have something better to do.
Has anyone else noticed that porn addicted men are to be pitied and coddled and just loved right back into the right way while women are raked over the coals for wearing a sleeveless blouse or too much make-up?
EXACTLY CoeurdeLeon. It is one of the things I found so frustrating in conservative churches. And women who have been subjected to this "disproportionate" level of energy directed at them-hearing over and over and over again how they tempt men with their dress but hearing only cursory addressing of men taking responsibility for their own lust problems, develop an internal misogyny that I think is reflected in the amount of women who are awfully quick to criticise each other for the length of their skirts, while poo-pooing the poor hormone addled men who just can't control themselves.
It is hardly the only heavily trafficed topic we see this dumping on women happen on. (Can you spell S_U_B__M_I_S_S_I_O_N?)
Sadly it is my opinion this is a reflection of an inherent misogyny commonly found and practiced in Conservative Christian Churches.
It is one of the reasons I left those circles after many years spent leading Women's Ministries, and witnessing the fall out first hand amongst my sisters.
_____________________________
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 9:28:37 AM
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HisLamb26
Posts: 388
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quote:
The lust buck stops with us guys.
Thank you mrtigger.
Now there ladies and gentleman, is a man I can respect.
_____________________________
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 9:33:09 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 4189
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quote:
And women who have been subjected to this "disproportionate" level of energy directed at them-hearing over and over and over again how they tempt men with their dress but hearing only cursory addressing of men taking responsibility for their own lust problems, develop an internal misogyny
You know, I've been thinking about this all morning and trying to think how to start a thread on it. You are right, there are probably far more women who hate women (and themselves) than there are women-hating men. In the church, I mean. It's heartbreaking.
_____________________________
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 9:40:17 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
quote:
The lust buck stops with us guys.
Thank you mrtigger.
Now there ladies and gentleman, is a man I can respect.
Agreed. As well as dnp200450, shilo and benelchi who I know is very consistent in his addressing of sin regardless of gender.
_____________________________
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 10:01:27 AM
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HisLamb26
Posts: 388
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
quote:
And women who have been subjected to this "disproportionate" level of energy directed at them-hearing over and over and over again how they tempt men with their dress but hearing only cursory addressing of men taking responsibility for their own lust problems, develop an internal misogyny
You know, I've been thinking about this all morning and trying to think how to start a thread on it. You are right, there are probably far more women who hate women (and themselves) than there are women-hating men. In the church, I mean. It's heartbreaking.
Well-If you decided to start a topic on it-Let me know where and when. It is heartbreaking, and is also a topic dear to my heart.
Women-who provide the bulk of the labor and participation that keeps our churches running day in and day out, are dumped on way too much, and then left with their noses pressed up against the stain glass windows.
Is it any wonder some of us seek friendlier waters in which to worship?
_____________________________
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 10:12:11 AM
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gmcspice
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I believe women should dress modestly and men need to control themselves.
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 10:22:48 AM
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dnp200450
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Agreed. As well as dnp200450, shilo and benelchi who I know is very consistent in his addressing of sin regardless of gender.
Thank you sister I really appreciate that 
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 10:34:55 AM
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jhuperetes
Posts: 471
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Let me further elucidate my thought on this.
ash2009 makes the comment:
quote:
I am a christian woman and i notice that alot of young christian women are not living up to their TITLE ..I believe we should be examples in the way we dress (not with tight fitting Jeans) and the way we talk and above all how we relate to Men
The thread continues on discussing, mostly by women, that indeed we all need to take responsibility for ourselves, and more mature Christian women need to teach less mature, younger Christian women. Interestingly most struggles of men are brought up by women. teacher1982 graciously shared a personal story where she became the teacher to a "younger" woman.
teacher1982, then broke it down to a succinct statement quote:
ORIGINAL: teacher1982
In ANY culture, modesty means covering up that which shouldn't be shown. It's not difficult.
The Bible says Modest Apparel. Not modest skin or modest attitude.
and later...quote:
It's not one way or the other. Modesty is a middle of the road thing. It doesn't mean a person has to cover up from head to toe, but it also doesn't mean that a person can show their nakedness in church (or anywhere else). It's being MODEST!
Abiyah put the whole issue into a well written post. It is directed at women, both young and old.
From then on the thread takes a slow turn - the justification or standard of modesty seem to become the responsibility of the viewer not the person called to be modest. (starts around the chew out of teacher1982 regarding pity)
That is, the center of attention is shifted to the men and his "unwillingness" to take responsibility for his own lust. Far from the truth - looking at all the posts - all declare the same - lust is the luster's responsibility.
To the point, presuming we are talking women-dress/men-lust -
Modesty is not the viewers responsibility. Lust is.
Modesty is the responsibility of the woman. Irrelevant if someone lusts or not.
Just because a woman is not modest, this does not justify a man's lust.
Just because a man is not lusting, that does not remove the modesty requirement from the woman.
As for me and my house, I teach my daughter modesty, and will dress accordingly as long as she lives here.
My sons are taught to be self controlled, to avert their eyes when they glimpse something they should not, and to not to lust - and will be continually reminded to do so.
I am biased as I am male, worked with addicts, and make presentations to parents how to protect our children from porn and such.
People who never dealt with addicts, are truly have little concept how blessed they are!
< Message edited by jhuperetes -- 11/4/2009 10:41:06 AM >
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 11:11:26 AM
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BelleWeather
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lea_3
This topic is seriously going to get killed to the point where finally, someone is going to say "Okay people, paper sack day!"
I was thinking the same thing after I had hitched up my Waiting-for-Zion bloomers, ironing my Prairie Dress this morning. ; )
_____________________________
We think we fathom the depths
when we are just skimming the surface with our finger.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 11:17:00 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
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quote:
presentations to parents how to protect our children from porn and such.
jhuperetes, I would sincerely like to see a thread on this. I don't remember ever seeing such a thread in the time that I've been here and I've got a 13 yr old son. I'd appreciate tools and information on protecting him and teaching him to protect himself.
< Message edited by CoeurdeLeon -- 11/4/2009 11:23:29 AM >
_____________________________
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 11:20:12 AM
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dnp200450
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I vote for closing the thread. I bet the woman with the revealing cloths never thought so much would be written about her 
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 11:39:28 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
I believe women should dress modestly and men need to control themselves.
I really wish this is where more people were coming from on this thread!
A man should understand that he CANNOT blame women (even women who are in sin) for his own failures.
A woman should understand that she CANNOT blame men (even men who are in sin) for her failures.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 11:48:38 AM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2104
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quote:
ORIGINAL: elastic
another issue is the fact that what one person considers modest, someone else considers immodest.
Yep. Just ask my mother and grandmother.
Or what someone thinks is appropriate for the occasion, another thinks is inappropriate. Or what one thinks is a fine balance of accessories and are colors that are acceptable (and lovely) to wear, another thinks is too much and too garish. Some of this stuff is HIGHLY subjective.
Having said that....
I think I'm pretty covered up today. And nothing's too tight.
But there might be days that I think a piece in my outfit works just fine, but then... I go about my day and realize that things have to be constantly tugged at or hitched up or something. I get so frustrated with myself. (Changes in my weight and where I carry that weight really do not help.)
Usually, if my jeans are tighter (oof, shouldn't have eaten that big meal), then I'm wearing a longer top. But... whereas other gals are endowed in the chest, my endowments are in the rear and hips. You cannot miss them, no matter what I wear. My body is what it is.
And... I grew up being told that this or that showing and that this or that being too tight were issues of being classy vs. tacky, not about modesty and helping men not to lust. So... I still forget that the pants that I think are a little too tight but aren't that bad... might just be eye-magnets for some dude. (Which still boggles my mind, b/c I don't have the greatest self-image about my body... and to think that someone might drool over the parts of my body that I don't like, is just befuddling to me.)
I do know that my mindset when I am dressing and getting ready really does influence what I choose. And when I've wanted a little more attention (um... when going karaoking), I've dressed a little more attention-getting (without being trampy... but still... seeking attention is NOT modest). And... I got it. But what was sad was that I didn't get attention from quality guys. DUH, Elena!!!  So... I do agree that modesty isn't just an issue of externals but also a heart and mind thing. And for me, it's so much easier to dress appropriately and feel confident and pretty and feminine when my heart is right with God. If I'm struggling in my connection with Him (my fault, not His), then it's very easy for me to push the envelope in order to get an ego stroking or to be all frumpy and schleppy 'cause I don't even want to try.
I think what a Christian woman has to do is choose the best she can from her wardrobe, from a heart that wants to please God and make Christ known (rather than draw inordinate attention to herself), and then know that before God, she has done her best to do what is right and good... and to leave the judgement up to Him. She cannot control others' reactions and responses to her. But she can do her best not to provide occasion for her brothers in Christ to stumble. Even if her attempt at modesty isn't fully deemed successful by all others, she still can be deemed so by God... because of her heart motives and b/c she did the best with the clothing she has.
I don't have any control over what others think of me or over what men are thinking when they look at me. But I do have control over me -- or at least, the opportunity and the equipping to have self-control (even if I don't always exercise it).
So... while I do get frustrated with the skimpy outfits that I have seen at church, unless I do something to invest in those gals' lives and also work to be a credible model for them to follow... then my complaining and whining and gossiping does nothing but stir up contention and threaten to bring shame upon the name of Christ (b/c of my untended heart-garden of weeds!!). And I'm not pointing any fingers here... except at me ---> 'cause I have complained, whined, and gossiped about this topic in the past.
_____________________________
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 12:20:23 PM
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jhuperetes
Posts: 471
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
quote:
presentations to parents how to protect our children from porn and such.
jhuperetes, I would sincerely like to see a thread on this. I don't remember ever seeing such a thread in the time that I've been here and I've got a 13 yr old son. I'd appreciate tools and information on protecting him and teaching him to protect himself.
I can sure try. It is disjointed as it is a mish mash of multiple power points, word docs, etc. together.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 12:22:26 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2104
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Every time you or anyone makes a statement to the effect of "Men are responsible for their thoughts BUT women shouldn't dress like they do and tempt them" there is, at least IMO, some amount of blame-shifting.
And that was really my point in saying several posts ago that women sin when they dress immodestly because they are disobeying God - period. That is why we teach our daughters and those less mature in the faith with whom we have a relationship to make sure all the 'important parts'  are covered at all times. Whether in church or out. Because the focus should be on obeying God. Not that we shouldn't have consideration for other believers and in more areas than just this one but obeying God is the most important thing.
Exactly!! And that's what I was trying to get at w/ my long-winded post.
If we measure the success of our efforts in obeying God, by whether or not someone else sins as a response to our action (or restraint from acting), then we are doomed!
But ... from what I understand, we are still credited with having done something righteous (not for the purpose of salvation but for the purpose of living out the truth that we are now saved and are being sanctified) when we obey God as a love-filled response to His commands --- regardless of what others think, say, or do in response to our faith-act. (See Romans 4 - particularly verses 20-25.)
quote:
Putting any of the responsibility for what men think on those we have influence over is wrong and just makes the kind of mess this thread, and all the others like it, became/
I agree.
The way I think about it is this: Being aware of what men stumble over about women and their bodies, I am more equipped to help them not stumble. I am not responsible for their thoughts and actions. But I can do the loving thing to help them as much as is in my power and control to do so. I may have rights to do certain things, but to exercise those rights may not be beneficial, may not be sacrificially loving, may not be wise. And part of loving and obeying God is doing what benefits His kingdom, His family, so that together we glorify Christ and make Him known. When my efforts to dress and present myself modestly are about these things, then I believe I will please God.... no matter how many people give me the seal of their approval. I am to fear (be in awe of, respect, reverence) God, not people. His appraisal is the one I am to seek. And if others praise me for modesty, then the credit is His, for the work in me is His.
_____________________________
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 12:32:32 PM
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gmcspice
Posts: 654
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quote:
Being aware of what men stumble over about women and their bodies, I am more equipped to help them not stumble. I am not responsible for their thoughts and actions. But I can do the loving thing to help them as much as is in my power and control to do so. I may have rights to do certain things, but to exercise those rights may not be beneficial, may not be sacrificially loving, may not be wise. And part of loving and obeying God is doing what benefits His kingdom, His family, so that together we glorify Christ and make Him known. When my efforts to dress and present myself modestly are about these things, then I believe I will please God.... no matter how many people give me the seal of their approval. I am to fear (be in awe of, respect, reverence) God, not people. His appraisal is the one I am to seek. And if others praise me for modesty, then the credit is His, for the work in me is His.
Amen!! We are always supposed to think of our brothers and sisters in Christ before ourselves. Do not cause them to stumble. Women dress modestly so that when the man that doesn't control himself says "she had this or that on and caused it", the brethren can say "No she didn't, you just didn't control your own thoughts".
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 12:35:12 PM
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jhuperetes
Posts: 471
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Romans 14...
This thread is all about Romans 14 from beginning to the end.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 12:46:52 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 4189
Joined: 12/30/2007
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jhuperetes
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
quote:
presentations to parents how to protect our children from porn and such.
jhuperetes, I would sincerely like to see a thread on this. I don't remember ever seeing such a thread in the time that I've been here and I've got a 13 yr old son. I'd appreciate tools and information on protecting him and teaching him to protect himself.
I can sure try. It is disjointed as it is a mish mash of multiple power points, word docs, etc. together.
Thank you!
_____________________________
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 12:49:13 PM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1453
Joined: 3/13/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
I believe women should dress modestly and men need to control themselves.
as usual gmcspice you are right, and also to the point.
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