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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 9:58:44 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
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Did you see my edit, benelchi? That is what I'm talking about and what I was calling gossip. Maybe gossip isn't the right word. But I do take exception to other believers being spoken about in a disparaging manner. I don't think it's edifying to the Body in any way.
Re: your post # 98 I pretty much completely agree with one modification. Women who choose to dress immodestly (when they know better) sin because they are disobeying God. Period. That is enough reason. What men think about should not be laid at our door.
Besides, if it were true that women sin in enticing men, then as RichLP so nicely put it, it will only be the "curvy" women who have to answer to God for that.
quote:
because if a woman with curves dresses skimpily, it can be a source of major suffering for men in the church.
quote:
A Christian woman who chooses to only dress modestly only when she attends church is being just as hypocritical as the Christian man or woman who only refrains from profanity, drunkenness, etc… while at church.
I totally agree with this and would add -
The Christian man who professes to worry over his thought life and find fault with the women at church and then goes home to watch football with its cheerleaders and commercials depicting immodestly dressed women is equally a hypocrite. Our brothers who are so being sinned against had better be sure that they are not inviting scantily clad women into their homes in the form of tv and magazine ads. Because if looking away at church doesn't cut it for them, then merely looking away at home doesn't cut it either.
_____________________________
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 11:10:25 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3177
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From: being knit together in my mother's womb
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We know that there is a problem. What can be done to fix it corporately, while knowing that one corporate fix will not "fix" anything permanently?
How about following the Acts 15 example?
For anyone who does not know this, there were some believing Jews (who happened to be Pharisees) who wanted the new Greek believers to not only be suddenly fully mature believers who also fit in with them in all their understanding of Messiah and in all their traditions. Obviously, these Greeks were steeped in paganism and knew nothing else other than that they now believed Messiah.
Peter stood up for the new believers, reminding the dissenters that he was called as an apostle to these Greeks, so that they would believe, and he called out their critics, saying,
quote:
10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
So the decision was made:
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19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
Note this part:
quote:
21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
"Moses" is read (and taught -- they didn't just "read"). This was how they said that Torah was being read & taught, as is often seen throughout the Bible.
In other words, teach them the basics they can absorb for now, and as they continue in the L-rd, every Sabbath, they will be taught the rest.
Most churches hold classes before for new converts, especially classes for before they are baptized and/or before they become members. What about a restructuring of the common Sunday School classes, keeping a year-long class or two for all new converts? It could start off with your common pre-baptism and/or pre-membership classes, followed by formally baptising and/or joining, then continuing with classes that teach your basic beliefs. This could include classes for men only and classes for women only, where these issues can be broached.
After this, because some may be reminded, there could be reminders that we are our sisters' and brothers' keepers, and without being heavy-handed, we could just follow up individually with those.
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 11/3/2009 11:26:13 AM >
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 1:12:45 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
quote:
because if a woman with curves dresses skimpily, it can be a source of major suffering for men in the church.
quote:
A Christian woman who chooses to only dress modestly only when she attends church is being just as hypocritical as the Christian man or woman who only refrains from profanity, drunkenness, etc… while at church.
I totally agree with this and would add -
The Christian man who professes to worry over his thought life and find fault with the women at church and then goes home to watch football with its cheerleaders and commercials depicting immodestly dressed women is equally a hypocrite. Our brothers who are so being sinned against had better be sure that they are not inviting scantily clad women into their homes in the form of tv and magazine ads. Because if looking away at church doesn't cut it for them, then merely looking away at home doesn't cut it either.
I like the above so much, but I do have a hair of disagreement. We expect to step out of the world and focus on God and godly things in church. Some need that detox, and refreshing from the barrage that they deal with all week. They could well want to true their perspective that Sunday morning and the distraction of flesh hanging out is difficult. This is a time set aside for worship and I don't thinks it's (necessarily) hypocritical for a man to want it to be extra safe, or for a woman to be extra careful.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 1:18:15 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4575
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Did you see my edit, benelchi? That is what I'm talking about and what I was calling gossip. Maybe gossip isn't the right word. But I do take exception to other believers being spoken about in a disparaging manner. I don't think it's edifying to the Body in any way.
I didn't see your edit. 
quote:
Re: your post # 98 I pretty much completely agree with one modification. Women who choose to dress immodestly (when they know better) sin because they are disobeying God. Period. That is enough reason. What men think about should not be laid at our door.
I cautiously agree with your modification; cautiously because too many times I have heard the same women claim "I didn't know that" whenever the topic has come up. After the incident I described in my last post had happened, I asked several women if I could be misinterpreting what had happened i.e. was there anyway that a woman could show their stuff in that way and not be aware of what they were doing? The answer I received was a unanimous, NO a woman could not do that unknowingly. I do understand the some women can be naive (especially teens and younger women) and often that naivety represents a failure of the older mature Christian women to come along side their younger sisters in Christ and help them to understand godly standards for living. PLEASE NOTE: I know this is not a only a women's problem, too often the older Christian men fail in the exact same way in dealing with the younger men they should be mentoring. So, I do agree with you, I do not believe God holds women accountable for that which she truly does not know, and I do agree that a new convert to Christianity may not understand this issue at all and that one must be sensitive about when and how this issue is addressed with new believers, but I also recognize that it is important to broach this topic and sometimes it is important to confront the issue when godly standards are being ignored.
quote:
Besides, if it were true that women sin in enticing men, then as RichLP so nicely put it, it will only be the "curvy" women who have to answer to God for that.
Actually this represents either a complete misunderstanding of the male mind or a deliberate attempt to divert attention from the real issue. Knowing you as I do, I know that this is simply a misunderstanding of the male mind; maybe this will help to bring some understanding. In my job as an IT security consultant, I regularly configure and audit corporate firewalls and looking at just the firewall logs at some companies can really turn the stomach. I have seen companies where over 90% of the bandwidth available on the Internet is being used for pornography. In some cases I have had to gather logs for HR departments when people have spent their entire work day (for weeks or months) doing nothing other than looking at porn from their offices. In these logs there are always references to almost everything imaginable, usually in language I wouldn't ever use i.e. sex with.... old women, fat women, ugly women, pregnant women, children, babies, etc.... Because in some cases I have had even to work with law enforcement, I do recognize the extreme perversion, but unfortunately I also recognize how extremely common this is (sometimes even among pastors in their church offices). Again, if a man chooses to fall into this kind of sin, it is his fault and his fault alone; however, that doesn't diminish the fact that some women do entice men to choose sin by the sinful choices they themselves are making.
quote:
quote:
because if a woman with curves dresses skimpily, it can be a source of major suffering for men in the church.
quote:
A Christian woman who chooses to only dress modestly only when she attends church is being just as hypocritical as the Christian man or woman who only refrains from profanity, drunkenness, etc… while at church.
I totally agree with this and would add -
The Christian man who professes to worry over his thought life and find fault with the women at church and then goes home to watch football with its cheerleaders and commercials depicting immodestly dressed women is equally a hypocrite. Our brothers who are so being sinned against had better be sure that they are not inviting scantily clad women into their homes in the form of tv and magazine ads. Because if looking away at church doesn't cut it for them, then merely looking away at home doesn't cut it either.
Here is something I again agree with; however, do you realize that some men do change the channel when the cheerleaders come on or do look away; and sometimes these same men are confronted with women in church who are dressed far more provocatively than the cheerleaders at a football game. Yes, men who choose to avoid lust only at church are hypocrites because god calls us to uphold his standards every day, but it is sad that men are often confronted by temptation in one of the areas where many men are struggling most by the hand of their Christian sisters in the one place where they should be able to seek refuge from the world.
I think the real problem is that churches either seem to emphasize Christian "liberty" without obedience to God's standards for living, or they emphasize obedience to the Law without a hint of understanding God's grace and love. Both, in different ways, exalt the individual at the expense of the body. Scripture says that "grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (Joh 1:17 NIV) and when we emphasize grace without truth or truth without grace, we have misunderstood Scripture.
PS. I do recognize that we mostly agree.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 1:23:10 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4575
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
quote:
because if a woman with curves dresses skimpily, it can be a source of major suffering for men in the church.
quote:
A Christian woman who chooses to only dress modestly only when she attends church is being just as hypocritical as the Christian man or woman who only refrains from profanity, drunkenness, etc… while at church.
I totally agree with this and would add -
The Christian man who professes to worry over his thought life and find fault with the women at church and then goes home to watch football with its cheerleaders and commercials depicting immodestly dressed women is equally a hypocrite. Our brothers who are so being sinned against had better be sure that they are not inviting scantily clad women into their homes in the form of tv and magazine ads. Because if looking away at church doesn't cut it for them, then merely looking away at home doesn't cut it either.
I like the above so much, but I do have a hair of disagreement. We expect to step out of the world and focus on God and godly things in church. Some need that detox, and refreshing from the barrage that they deal with all week. They could well want to true their perspective that Sunday morning and the distraction of flesh hanging out is difficult. This is a time set aside for worship and I don't thinks it's (necessarily) hypocritical for a man to want it to be extra safe, or for a woman to be extra careful.
I do agree then church should be a safer place for men than it often is, but I don't agree that it is OK for men to let their guard down, even a little, when they walk out the door. The place they hopefully can let their guard down would be in church, when a man is out in the "word" he should be even more vigilant; doing anything less is hypocritical.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 2:37:37 PM
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HisLamb26
Posts: 388
Joined: 4/17/2005
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quote:
Our brothers who are so being sinned against had better be sure that they are not inviting scantily clad women into their homes in the form of tv and magazine ads. Because if looking away at church doesn't cut it for them, then merely looking away at home doesn't cut it either.
Or perhaps like 70% of them that are going home, booting up the PC and looking at porn, (after whining about the scantily clad women in church no less!).
(I read one study that stated Porn sites show a slight drop off in traffic during church hours on Sunday-then traffic ramps right back up again Sunday afternoons.)
_____________________________
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 2:40:18 PM
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HisLamb26
Posts: 388
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ie....Grow up and Learn to control yourself already, ESPECIALLY when nobody else is watching.
THEN and only then will I entertain whining about the dress of women @ church.
_____________________________
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 2:46:37 PM
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jhuperetes
Posts: 472
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Praise His name that you are not addicted, or grew up in an environment where such things are "normal", HisLamb26.
This dovetails well into how ladies dress. If a young lady grows up with most women dressing provocatively around her, and that is the norm - how is one to know without older Christian women teaching them?
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 3:03:12 PM
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HisLamb26
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I know older women at one church that wouldn't wear makeup or earrings. I know older women at another that wouldn't wear pants. Like it or not-the concept of modesty is quite subjective.
I've had men stare at me dressed in loose sweats and a lust inducing hoodie.
So see-I think women are smart enough to figure out dress codes for themselves.
And I think men need to stop dumping their lust issues on women.
An old Pastor I used to know had this to say: Charachter is what you are when nobody is looking. The stats for porn use amongst so called Christian men are abysmal. When nobody is looking....far too many of them are using porn. And then to have the nerve to turn around and whine about modesty amongst Christian women? Give me a break already.
I think perhaps it is Christian men who should be teaching each other: to manage their lust problems and stop dumping them on women.
< Message edited by HisLamb26 -- 11/3/2009 3:13:22 PM >
_____________________________
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 3:06:46 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3177
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From: being knit together in my mother's womb
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So perhaps it would be a good thing to see what the Bible SAYS modesty is and isn't. After all, it is the authority, and wouldn't most of us agree that any rules added to it or taken away are subject to G-d's judgment?
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 3:08:15 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4575
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
quote:
Our brothers who are so being sinned against had better be sure that they are not inviting scantily clad women into their homes in the form of tv and magazine ads. Because if looking away at church doesn't cut it for them, then merely looking away at home doesn't cut it either.
Or perhaps like 70% of them that are going home, booting up the PC and looking at porn, (after whining about the scantily clad women in church no less!).
(I read one study that stated Porn sites show a slight drop off in traffic during church hours on Sunday-then traffic ramps right back up again Sunday afternoons.)
"church hours" what are those? Do you realize that the Internet is a global network and the porn problem is a global problem? Because of my line of work, I understand the Internet porn problem better than most and it is horrifying, but I also understand it enough to recognize when someone has LIED about a fictitious study, and who ever provided the study date you quoted LIED.
Yes, porn is a huge problem, even among those who attend church, and your 70% number is probably only slightly too high. However, the entire post (and the one that follows) shows as little grace and love for the men who are struggling with this sin as some of the previous posts have shown for the women who are struggling with issues of immodesty.
A woman demonstrating grace and love would recognize the damage caused when men fall into sin because of lust, and care enough for these brothers to not (as far as it depends on them) entice their brothers in Christ to sin. I simply do not understand statements like "THEN and only then will I entertain whining about the dress of women @ church." I believe God has called on all of us to show grace and love to our brothers and sisters who have fallen; we are not to condone their sinful behavior, but we are to demonstrate Christ's love to them. If you know of a brother who is demonstrating such hypocrisy, lovingly confront him. But recognize that he is a valued member of God's family, and do what you can to help him rather than simply throwing salt into his wounds.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 8:50:01 PM
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jhuperetes
Posts: 472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
I know older women at one church that wouldn't wear makeup or earrings. I know older women at another that wouldn't wear pants. Like it or not-the concept of modesty is quite subjective.
I do not believe so. It is only subjective when we do not want to accept their teachings. They are called to teach the younger women.
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
I've had men stare at me dressed in loose sweats and a lust inducing hoodie.
That is a sad commentary on that Christian men who do that. Otherwise if they are not Christian men, expect nothing better from the world.
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
So see-I think women are smart enough to figure out dress codes for themselves.
I disagree. Most women learn how to dress from other women.
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
And I think men need to stop dumping their lust issues on women.
An old Pastor I used to know had this to say: Charachter is what you are when nobody is looking. The stats for porn use amongst so called Christian men are abysmal. When nobody is looking....far too many of them are using porn. And then to have the nerve to turn around and whine about modesty amongst Christian women? Give me a break already.
I think perhaps it is Christian men who should be teaching each other: to manage their lust problems and stop dumping them on women.
I will forgo to riposte on the misandrist comments. Although men need to be taught how to handle their lust, I believe this thread is about women.
The stats for porn use and lust amongst Christians in general, not just men, are abysmal.
But to point out some inconsistencies in your comments:
quote:
2003:
The editors of Today's Christian Woman, an evangelical magazine, had heard anecdotes of churchgoing women getting hooked on pornography, so they conducted a survey asking readers of their online newsletter if they had intentionally visited porn sites. Thirty-four percent said they had. quote:
2006 stats from Internet Filter Review:
* 17% of all women struggle with porn addiction
* 1 of 3 visitors to all adult websites are women
* 9.4 million women access adult websites every month
quote:
August 7,2006:
60% of the women who answered the survey admitted to having significant struggles with lust; 40% admitted to being involved in sexual sin in the past year; and 20% of the church-going female participants struggle with looking at pornography on an ongoing basis.
(ChristiaNet by Marketwire.com)
I can continue...
quote:
34% of female readers of Today's Christian Woman's online newsletter admitted to intentionally accessing Internet porn in a recent poll and 1 out of every 6 women, including Christians, struggles with an addiction to pornography (Today’s Christian Woman, Fall 2003)
quote:
• 49% of 18-26 year-old women believe viewing pornography is acceptable.
• 31% of young women report using pornography is acceptable.
(Generation XXX, Pornography Acceptance and use Among Emerging Adults” (Journal of Adolescent Research, Vol.23, No.1 2008)
It is a myth that pornography, more specifically lust is gender specific. Women tend to have a better coping mechanism initially, and can better hide it then men. Maybe men are higher in visually lustful material, but women are just as high in lustful literal material, such as "romance novels".
I be happy to find more statistics on this if this is still not sufficient to demonstrate it is not just a men's issue.
It has been much more eloquently stated before -
Teach young Christian women to be Christians. Mature women are well suited for this grueling task.
Teach young Christian men to be Christians. Mature men are well suited for this grueling task.
None are smart enough.
< Message edited by jhuperetes -- 11/3/2009 8:56:42 PM >
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 10:30:58 PM
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dnp200450
Posts: 397
Joined: 5/30/2009
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quote]ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
dnp I never said that men cant help looking I said that if a women is standing right in front of them dressed with revealing clothes, it makes it extreemly hard to aviod seeing her.As I have said several times, my husband will close his eyes to aviod doing this but isnt that rather sad that as he is such a godly man he has to do that in church?.
I am pointing out that women dresing this way are making it hard for men to aviod seeing them when they are told not to make men stumble.
I think too far much of My Christian male friends to do this.It is totally selfish and thoughtless. Also certain parts of my body are for my husband eyes only and not for other men to see.
I agree with you 100% that she is dressing inappropriately. I would terminate a woman that dressed they way in one of my companies. But I don’t see the men as being some kind of victim either. I go back to the analogy of me having sugary baked goods in the church kitchen. I am not victimizing the diabetic parishioners by having chocolate cookies on the table.
quote:
A man cannot help but notice a women dressed in revealing clothes, but he can stop staring. Sad though that he may have to close his eyes or leave that church to be able to do that.
I have seen women in church wearing revealing clothing. Closing my eyes and blocking my ears over everything or everyone that is tasteless, offensive and vulgar seems very problematic. I would have to live in a bubble away from humans afraid to travel. I am not called to be a monk or Howard Hughes. I would not leave the church just because someone is dressed like a prostitute or pimp. I find the smell of a smoker far more offensive than someones clothing because the clothing I can always ignore by looking a few degrees away from the person. If they are close to me I can look at their face.
quote:
I find this whole "well its the mens fault, we should be able to wear what we like and they shoudn't be looking"" VERY disturbing actually, and VERY selfish.
. If we are clearly disobeying God but dressing in such a way that we are making our brothers stumble then we are responsible. If we dress modestly and they still stare then that is THEIR problem.
Of course we should dress appropriately at church and work. But if you are a women who dresses in a revealing way and I stare and desire you. Guess what; IT IS MY FAULT! I am responsible and I AM disobeying God! Hey, it takes two to tango. If a prostitute propositions me it is up to me to say no. It is my fault if I say yes and I should pay the consequences for that.
quote:
It is a cop out to say that the men dont have to look when some women do it just for that very effect, to GET men to look.
It is still up to the man to look or not. It is a cop out for me to say, “I could not help it because she was so hot!”. I can ALWAYS help it. If I decide to stare it is my fault. Do you notice I have never excused the woman for dressing poorly? But I never excuse the man neither.
quote:
What????? I cant agree with that at all. Men definately are much more visually driven than women. That is why many many more men than women look at porn. That is why when some years ago people started trying to bring out a porn mag for women with naked men, it flopped badly as generally women are not turned on by seeing naked men but by different things.
I cant actually believe that a person can even think this.Read any book about men recovering from porn use or sexual problems, or about marriage or about the differences between men and women (written by both men and women) and they all say the same. Men are turned on by what they see and women are turned on by how they are treated and spoken to and loved.
Its a well known fact and definnetly is NOT used by men to justify anything. Sheeesh.
Do you really believe that? Think about it. Sexually explicit romance novels are hugely popular amount women. The magazine you are referring to flopped because the publisher did not understand the female demographics. Women consume a lot of porn. The porn industry caters to women by making “upscale” looking “Adult Stores”. Women did not go to the old school porno places because they looked to sleazy and dangerous. Now they appeal directly to women and couples. Women are definitely turned on by what they see. Women view a great deal of porn on the internet as well. I have fired women who porn addicts.
Women are very visually judgmental of men but perhaps even more so of other women. I used the example previously of plastic surgery, hairstyling, makeup, cloths, to name just a few example for how women visually judge other women. Women can decide to accept or reject a dating offer based on visuals. Too short, too fat, too skinny, too light, too dark, too bald, no “six-pact” abs, small muscles, bad acne, bad teeth, wrong eye color, poor dresser, ugly car. Notice that these were all VISUAL factors and nothing to do with how good a husband or father the man would be? Also many women go to see male strippers as well. At my old job all of the women would try to go see a touring male stripper show called the Chippendales. Um, women aren’t visually oriented towards sex? For anyone who says that I think I might have that Bridge in Brooklyn still available for sale. Folks don’t believe everything the “experts” say.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 10:57:11 PM
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dnp200450
Posts: 397
Joined: 5/30/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
A look at any magazine stand, sampling of advertisements, etc… will quickly reveal how much more often a woman’s body is used to SELL us good then is a man’s body. A look at art throughout history will reveal how much more often a woman’s body is the subject than is a man’s, a look at the pornography industry will reveal how much more often a woman’s body is used to entice than is a man’s. This is true even in those "liberated" countries that have topless and nude beaches referred to in another post. To present the idea that this temptation is equal for both men and women is to present a lie. While I will not buy the lie that a man cannot avoid failing into sin when they are tempted, I will also not buy the lie that a woman’s body is not a huge temptation to men; these ideas are both LIES!
Temptation is equal for both men and women. If it wasn’t, women would not try to entice men to have sex with them would they? What would be the point if they did not want sex themselves. If women were not sexually tempted humans would not still be walking the earth. Why do women spend so much a year on explicit romance novels? Why do woman buy so many female sex toys. Why do so many women have multiple sexual partners? Why are so many women bisexual? Why is a large percentage of customers who frequent upscale sex superstores women. Why do women like to see male strip shows like the Chippendales? Why do so many women consume illicit drugs such as ecstasy and crack cocaine that stimulates the sex centers in their brains?
As for art throughout history lets put that in perspective. Women usually did not have the money to commission all of those paintings and statues. Also a double-standard existed in many societies that allowed men to have full sexual rein while women were expected to be pure. As the standards are changing women are consuming more and more porn worldwide.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/3/2009 11:51:30 PM
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dnp200450
Posts: 397
Joined: 5/30/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Most churches hold classes before for new converts, especially classes for before they are baptized and/or before they become members. What about a restructuring of the common Sunday School classes, keeping a year-long class or two for all new converts? It could start off with your common pre-baptism and/or pre-membership classes, followed by formally baptising and/or joining, then continuing with classes that teach your basic beliefs. This could include classes for men only and classes for women only, where these issues can be broached.
Great idea! I would even go far as having all of the men and women in one class to get everything out in the open. Let everyone speak to each other directly. Without he says, she says behind the back speaking.
quote:
And I think men need to stop dumping their lust issues on women.
I will forgo to riposte on the misandrist comments. Although men need to be taught how to handle their lust, I believe this thread is about women. I think perhaps it is Christian men who should be teaching each other: to manage their lust problems and stop dumping them on women.
Um, their aren’t many Christian men left to teach in some churches. Many of them have abandoned church. Many do you approach woman at all or have ever gone out on a date. Some don’t have close Christian female friends? A great number of these Christian men that are left are avoiding women altogether. I am sure many you are aware of that. Just look around or scan the singles, he says and she says forums on this very site.
My point is that we are all responsible for our sexual thoughts and behaviors. I don’t know if lust is a big a problem as may believe. Yes some have a problem with it but I am convinced it is exaggerated. I would not say even 20% of the ones I know are porn addicts. I know we Christian guys are seen by many as porn consuming players with out of control libidos. I can honestly believe that most of the true Christian guys I know would not stare at a revealingly dressed woman. Many of them don’t even really associate or talk about woman that much to me. They see sexual attraction desire- temptation-lust seemingly the same as murder.
So for the TRUE young Christian guys I know, staring at or noticing women does not seem to be a real problem. Many don’t even really make eye contact with women and stay to themselves. So accusing them all of having a porn-lust problem without evidence to back it up might backfire. Lets leave with this:
In conclusion I would just like to leave with what was just said previously:
The editors of Today's Christian Woman, an evangelical magazine, had heard anecdotes of churchgoing women getting hooked on pornography, so they conducted a survey asking readers of their online newsletter if they had intentionally visited porn sites. Thirty-four percent said they had.quote:
2006 stats from Internet Filter Review:
* 17% of all women struggle with porn addiction
* 1 of 3 visitors to all adult websites are women
* 9.4 million women access adult websites every month
August 7,2006:
60% of the women who answered the survey admitted to having significant struggles with lust; 40% admitted to being involved in sexual sin in the past year; and 20% of the church-going female participants struggle with looking at pornography on an ongoing basis.
34% of female readers of Today's Christian Woman's online newsletter admitted to intentionally accessing Internet porn in a recent poll and 1 out of every 6 women, including Christians, struggles with an addiction to pornography (Today’s Christian Woman, Fall 2003)
• 49% of 18-26 year-old women believe viewing pornography is acceptable.
• 31% of young women report using pornography is acceptable.
(Generation XXX, Pornography Acceptance and use Among Emerging Adults” (Journal of Adolescent Research, Vol.23, No.1 2008)
quote:
It is a myth that pornography, more specifically lust is gender specific. Women tend to have a better coping mechanism initially, and can better hide it then men. Maybe men are higher in visually lustful material, but women are just as high in lustful literal material, such as "romance novels".
It has been much more eloquently stated before -
Teach young Christian women to be Christians. Mature women are well suited for this grueling task.
Teach young Christian men to be Christians. Mature men are well suited for this grueling task.
None are smart enough.
Very well put!!!
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 1:48:55 AM
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Lea_3
Posts: 295
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
To me, modesty means:
(1) Dress appropriately for your position in the group.
(2) Don't dress to represent wealth that is not representative of the group.
(3) Don't dress in clothing that is overly form-fitting.
(4) Cover up those areas that could be sexually enticing to persons of either gender, and in the USA, that means cover your breasts, all cleavages, and legs as appropriate for the group.
(5) Cover yourself in such a way that you will remain modest in all activities.
. . .(a) If you are going to cross your legs, be sure that when you do, you are appropriately covered.
. . .(b) If you are going to bend over, be sure you will be appropriately covered in the top-front and back at the waist and up your legs.
. . .(c) If you are going to be on the floor with children (etc.) dress so that you will not be exposed.
. . .(d) if you are going to be going up stairs in front of someone, or be above people (on a ladder, scaffold, balcony, etc.) be sure you are dressed so that you do not expose yourself.
I think we found our guidelines!
There are a couple things I wanted to mention. Does a woman who has an ample bustline or backside deserve flack because men may look at her, although she is dressed modestly? I am not trying to brag here, but I'm not exactly small on top...but I dress modestly. I do the "bend" test, I lean forward in front of a mirror and see if you can see down my shirt. Then I make necessary adjustments.
However, sometimes it seems that no matter how modest I try to be, guys will look anyway! And I've noticed that certain clothing which I thought would be stylish and modest, such as having higher necklines with frills or ruffles that would cover chest area-- seem to attract MORE attention.
My sister has a similar problem. Her body is a perfect hourglass (so unfair) and she dresses modestly-- our mother won't let her leave the house without doing so. She also uses layers as I do, but guys cannot keep their eyes off her. My sister doesn't wear low necklines, low-rise jeans (I hate those myself), or skirts with long slits on the sides. Yet men still look at her. For goodness sakes, men still gawk at my mother, who is by far THE MOST modest woman I have ever seen! What do you do then???
I think we are also forgetting that not every Christian views this issue from a Westernized lens. I know of many Indian Christians who believe that being modest includes wearing traditional Indian dress, such as salwar kameez and saris. To others though, that looks immodest because a sari *can* show some of your midriff. However, there are ways to wrap a sari and drape it so you can't see anything, unless you are trying to look for it. I know Somali Christian girls at school whose parents don't like them wearing Western clothing either because they see it as immodest, and instead these girls still look very elegant in their long blouses and long skirts. See what I mean?
I think regardless of cultural issues, if we followed Covaan's rules, there should be no problems. This topic is seriously going to get killed to the point where finally, someone is going to say "Okay people, paper sack day!"
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 6:42:15 AM
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HisLamb26
Posts: 388
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
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jhuperete,
Yes-Some women look @ porn. But I think you missed the point.
It is not the women who are whining about alleged temptation in church, while 70% of them are simultanesouly and quite voluntarily INVITING far worse temptations when they get home.
To me that is the epitome of hypocrisy.
Much like a drunk whining about the possibility of alcohol being served at a church function, then going home and drinking themselves blind.
< Message edited by HisLamb26 -- 11/4/2009 7:11:24 AM >
_____________________________
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 6:56:25 AM
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HisLamb26
Posts: 388
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
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benelchi,
You're right re. my lack of grace. I find it hard to respect men (or women for that matter) who try to blame their personal problems on others. I might have more patience with this issue if I saw public and private behaviors that lined up, But statistics re. porn use amongst Christian males make male complaints about the dress of women in church sadly laughable.
_____________________________
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 7:28:38 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 4189
Joined: 12/30/2007
From: Inside my head
Status: offline
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quote:
It is not the women who are whining about alleged temptation in church, while 70% of them are simultanesouly and VOLUNTARILY INVITING temptation when they get home.
I have to agree with this. And, like I said, it's not just the porn. It's magazines and tv...men say that them taking responsibility for their eyes and thoughts and looking away at church isn't acceptable. I say telling us that you are able to and do change the channel or look away at home is hypocrisy.
And, again, WE aren't assigning ANY of the blame to anyone else for the problems we may struggle with in keeping our eyes and our thoughts where they should be.
quote:
I will forgo to riposte on the misandrist comments. Although men need to be taught how to handle their lust, I believe this thread is about women.
And that is probably one of THE most frustrating things about the issue. Every couple of months there's a thread about how women dress with, as seen here once again, both blatant and subtle forms of misogyny. But if there are ever any about men they are few and far between and hidden in Men Only.
Question ~ is the percentage of porn addiction in the church greater or less than the percentage of women who deliberately and consistently dress like hookers to go to church? Is there a serious imbalance in the proportion of threads devoted to each problem? Why is that and why, when women get frustrated about it, do we get accused of just wanting to dress the way we want? As though that's the only possible reason we could have for speaking out against the things that are said.
Gentlemen, out of all the times over all the years you've been to church and all the times, out of all the women who've ever been there, you've seen women dressed immodestly, does that number compare with the porn use among Christian men? If the more mature Christians are failing at teaching the younger....who is failing most? And which is the more damaging problem? How many problems in the marriage folder involve the husband's use of porn and how many that some woman is dressing scantily for church? It seems to me that Christian men really do have something better to do.
Has anyone else noticed that porn addicted men are to be pitied and coddled and just loved right back into the right way while women are raked over the coals for wearing a sleeveless blouse or too much make-up?
I am NOT excusing women's sin. But I am trying to put things a little more into perspective.
BTW, dnp200450, I appreciate your sane and responsible comments in this thread.
_____________________________
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 9:01:32 AM
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SurpassingPeace
Posts: 807
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: online
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quote:
Has anyone else noticed that porn addicted men are to be pitied and coddled and just loved right back into the right way while women are raked over the coals for wearing a sleeveless blouse or too much make-up?
Actually, I have seen this problem dumped on woman over and over. I cannot believe how many times I have seen some poor woman questioned over what she did not cause his problem. The one that made me fuming mad was a woman with a 9 WEEK OLD baby berated by several posters because her lack of intimacy, I believe every day was his demand, with her husband was the reason he turned to porn.
We are all responsible for our own sins. That woman made me sin because she was exposing her shoulders will not be an exceptable excuse before God.
I talked about this with my husband for a long time. We both feel that this attitude really demeans men. It says, they are animals that are unable to control themselves. Women, we must take care of the poor dears because they are too hormonally driven to do it themselves. I think it is insulting to men. I can do all things through Christ fits for controlling your mind against lust.
CouerdeLeon, by the way I love you name, I agree with you on everything that you have said.
I feel like I keep belaboring this point but it is so imporant. We MUST deal with each other with the love, grace, mercy, and compassion that Christ deals with us. Without love, we are just clanging gongs.
_____________________________
Karen
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 9:11:52 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 4189
Joined: 12/30/2007
From: Inside my head
Status: offline
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quote:
We both feel that this attitude really demeans men. It says, they are animals that are unable to control themselves. Women, we must take care of the poor dears because they are too hormonally driven to do it themselves. I think it is insulting to men.
Wow, do I ever agree with this. I have a far higher opinion of the godly men I know, both online and off (some of whom are posting in this thread  ), than some seem to have. And that's one of the reasons I so hate for them to pass off their responsibility, they demean themselves and I really hate to see it.
Thank you for the compliment, it is very much appreciated.
quote:
We MUST deal with each other with the love, grace, mercy, and compassion that Christ deals with us. Without love, we are just clanging gongs.
And thank you for the reminder.
_____________________________
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 9:19:18 AM
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mrtigger
Posts: 272
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Gentlemen, out of all the times over all the years you've been to church and all the times, out of all the women who've ever been there, you've seen women dressed immodestly, does that number compare with the porn use among Christian men?
My experience has been that most women generally dress & behave modestly. From my experience, my estimate is maybe only 1 out of 30 or 40 women dresses and/or behaves immodestly.
The lust buck stops with us guys. I do think women have an obligation to dress & behave in a modest way but regardless of what they do or not, it is up to guys to deal with whatever temptations come our way.
Just from a practical standpoint, even if you could (and you can't) get all Christian women to dress & behave modestly (assuming you could even all agree on what modest dress/behaviour actually is), us guys would still have to deal with those non-Christian women who don't adhere to the Christian modesty standard. So guys need to learn to effectively deal with the problem women regardless of what Christian women do (or not).
_____________________________
mr tigger
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/4/2009 9:20:55 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3177
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: being knit together in my mother's womb
Status: offline
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And please! Let's drop the statement, "Boys will be boys" while the boys still are boys. That is the lamest excuse ever, especially since it is way too often used about men!!
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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