|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 10:43:15 AM
|
|
|
tafkam
Posts: 1323
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
|
Memo to our friends on the left: Glenn Beck is not a news source.
I'll say it again, s-l-o-w-l-y: Glenn Beck is NOT, repeat NOT, (third time's the charm) NOT a news source.
Eleven pages of posts and they still can't get beyond such a simple concept....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 10:52:29 AM
|
|
|
StephK
Posts: 2524
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
And stomp all over the First Amendment? I'm sorry, that's unconstitutional. The only thing he is protected from is a threat against his life or physical well being. If he can't take criticism, he should not have run for President.
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
The truth is that this administration is not happy when it is criticized. When that happens they attack the messenger not the message.
The problem is that disinformation is much more easily disseminated than real information. Addressing insane associations like comparisons to Nazis and Stalinism only gets you so far. It's far better to address the source of the claims. At some point, if a news organization engages in tabloid-style yellow journalism as a matter of course, it behooves people to treat them as such. There's nothing that prevents the POTUS from taking the first step.
It's obvious there are some arguing the issue who don't have a clue about our Constitution.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Envy is always referred to by its political alias, "social justice."
~ Thomas Sowell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 12:00:18 PM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 1862
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
And stomp all over the First Amendment? I'm sorry, that's unconstitutional. The only thing he is protected from is a threat against his life or physical well being. If he can't take criticism, he should not have run for President.
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
The truth is that this administration is not happy when it is criticized. When that happens they attack the messenger not the message.
The problem is that disinformation is much more easily disseminated than real information. Addressing insane associations like comparisons to Nazis and Stalinism only gets you so far. It's far better to address the source of the claims. At some point, if a news organization engages in tabloid-style yellow journalism as a matter of course, it behooves people to treat them as such. There's nothing that prevents the POTUS from taking the first step.
It's obvious there are some arguing the issue who don't have a clue about our Constitution.
So how exactly have Fox's rights to speech and press been abrogated again? I think this is like the third dime I've asked. Criticism =/= taking your rights away.
When Obama criticized Kanye West, Kanye West was not having his rights abrogated. In what way is the constitution being violated?
< Message edited by huangshan -- 10/31/2009 12:09:07 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 12:03:26 PM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 1862
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Memo to our friends on the left: Glenn Beck is not a news source.
I'll say it again, s-l-o-w-l-y: Glenn Beck is NOT, repeat NOT, (third time's the charm) NOT a news source.
Eleven pages of posts and they still can't get beyond such a simple concept....
When have I asserted that Glenn Beck is news? The point is that he's not news.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 12:10:11 PM
|
|
|
tafkam
Posts: 1323
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
|
Then why do you insist on briging him up every time you're asked about Fox News' alleged bias?
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 12:20:02 PM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 1862
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Then why do you insist on briging him up every time you're asked about Fox News' alleged bias?
I haven't been asked about bias. I haven't been talking about bias. The extent to which I've mentioned bias was summarized at the top of this page:
I haven't been talking about bias. I understand that you'd like this conversation to be about bias, but I've only mentioned the term about four times in this thread, and each time I all but dismissed it as irrelevant.
I've made two mutually exclusive arguments in this thread, neither of which is particularly concerned with bias:
1) There's nothing that prevents a president from calling out a person or organization by name.
2) Fox News has organized and promoted anti-Democratic protests. I have given ample evidence for this claim:
-Beck promoted the "9/12 Project" for a long time, as you admit.
-Beck works for Fox News. The Fox News logo appears on his show, on his website, etcetera.
-The 9/12 Project website shows, explicitly, the "Brought to you by FOXNews.com" logo at the bottom of the main page.
-Glenn Beck gave out an email (glennbeck@foxnews.com, note the Fox News there) and told people to email Fox about protests happening in their area and Fox will put them on TV.
-I demonstrated one of the non-Beck promos that Fox aired.
-The 9/12 Project website helps people find protests happening in their area. It also has resources for contacting senators and representatives, with again, the "Brought to you by FOXNews.com" right there on the bottom.
- Beck has said, in reference to the Tea Parties, "Celebrate with Fox News", and the screen then shifts to a map with the heading, "FNC TAX DAY TEA PARTIES".
The response to these claims has been to either ignore them (hi there, davemiller7!  ) or to claim that Glenn Beck has nothing to do with Fox News, that "Brought to you by FOXNews.com" does not mean "Brought to you by FOXNews.com" and to claim that "Fox News Channel Tax Day Tea Parties" does not mean "Fox News Channel Tax Day Tea Parties". Needless to say, I find these vapid excuses to be less than persuasive. And now you're trying to talk about bias. I don't care about bias. I haven't been talking about bias.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 12:24:35 PM
|
|
|
tafkam
Posts: 1323
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
|
(sigh) This gets sooooo tiresome, but as long as you keep propogating falsehoods, I'll keep correcting them.
Fox News did NOT promote the 9/12 event. That was Glenn Beck's baby. Much like the Freedom Concerts are for Sean Hannity. They are NOT Fox News sponsored events.
Fox News did NOT organize the Tea Party events, much as the left would like t obelieve that to be so. They were, however, the one news source that actually gave coverage to the events.
I'm wondering if anybody on the left who was so outraged over Fox's coverage of the Tea Parties was equally as outraged over other networks openly belittling and mocking the protestors, even going so far as to use a slang term for a homosexual act in doing so. My guess is no....because one fits their agenda, the other does not...
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 12:42:42 PM
|
|
|
Frontporch
Posts: 239
Joined: 6/28/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
tafkam - Fox News did NOT organize the Tea Party events,
That is basically true, they simply promoted the events. The organizing was with Freedomworks, and other groups.
quote:
My guess is no....
Any distortion, misinformation, editorializing by a news organization is totally inappropriate. And to the point of the OP I agree with many that the tact taken by the WH is not well thought out and another solution should have been sought to combat reckless journalism.
_____________________________
In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't. Pascal
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 12:56:21 PM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 1862
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Fox News did NOT promote the 9/12 event. That was Glenn Beck's baby. Much like the Freedom Concerts are for Sean Hannity. They are NOT Fox News sponsored events.
Fox News did NOT organize the Tea Party events, much as the left would like t obelieve that to be so. They were, however, the one news source that actually gave coverage to the events.
Fox News' logo is all over the webpage, it's responsible for the promos, it's responsible for Glenn Becks program, and yes, they organized the protests via the 9/12 Project webpage (again, note the "get involved" tab, which is on the same page as the "Brought to you by FOXNews.com" tab), which I linked to previously.
As far as Fox News sponsoring them... I haven't made that claim. I guess if running the website and running free promos is sponsoring them, then sure, they sponsored them. If not, they didn't sponsor them and I haven't made that claim.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 1:07:25 PM
|
|
|
tafkam
Posts: 1323
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
|
I don't care if Fox News logo takes up 2/3 of the screen, the 9/12 project was not a Fox News event. Saying that it is over and over again ad nauseum does not make it so (I know liberals like to think that if they say something enough it becomes truth, but hey, we have to live in the real world...).
My mistake: the Tea Parties were not Fox News "sponsored" events. nor were they organized or run by Fox News. Fox News was the only network to give them any coverage, and as a result, MSNBC and others decided to try and frame the Tea Partiers with Fox News, seeking to discredit them as some sort of ideological stunt.
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 1:20:11 PM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 1862
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
I don't care if Fox News logo takes up 2/3 of the screen, the 9/12 project was not a Fox News event.
I have noted that Fox News has themselves used the language, "Fox News Channel Tax Day Tea Parties". If you'd like to dispute their claims, perhaps you should take it up with Fox.
quote:
My mistake: the Tea Parties were not Fox News "sponsored" events. nor were they organized or run by Fox News.
So when there's a website that's run by Fox that has information regarding finding a protest in your area and information regarding calling your congressman, it's not "organizing"? I'm pretty sure that's organizing.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 1:40:57 PM
|
|
|
tafkam
Posts: 1323
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
So when there's a website that's run by Fox that has information regarding finding a protest in your area and information regarding calling your congressman, it's not "organizing"? I'm pretty sure that's organizing.
You can also contact news services for information on disaster relief services during hurricanes or polling places on election day...does that mean they orgnized those as well?
quote:
I have noted that Fox News has themselves used the language, "Fox News Channel Tax Day Tea Parties". If you'd like to dispute their claims, perhaps you should take it up with Fox.
Soooo, when the words Fox News appears on the same screen with "Space Shuttle Discovery Launch", I guess that means they are promoting the space program as well, right?
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 1:51:22 PM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 1862
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
So when there's a website that's run by Fox that has information regarding finding a protest in your area and information regarding calling your congressman, it's not "organizing"? I'm pretty sure that's organizing.
You can also contact news services for information on disaster relief services during hurricanes or polling places on election day...does that mean they orgnized those as well?
Yes, those are organizational activities. If Fox is telling me where to go to help out after a disaster, it's performing an organizational function. It's organizing. What do you think organizing means?
quote:
quote:
I have noted that Fox News has themselves used the language, "Fox News Channel Tax Day Tea Parties". If you'd like to dispute their claims, perhaps you should take it up with Fox.
Soooo, when the words Fox News appears on the same screen with "Space Shuttle Discovery Launch", I guess that means they are promoting the space program as well, right?
It's not that the words appear on the same screen. It's that they're one line: Fox News Channel Tax Day Tea Parties. It's like Fox News Channel Election Coverage or A Fox News Channel Tribute to The Republican Party.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 4:22:30 PM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 1974
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshanIt's not that the words appear on the same screen. It's that they're one line: Fox News Channel Tax Day Tea Parties. It's like Fox News Channel Election Coverage
So you then you admit that it is a promotion of their COVERAGE of the tea parties? You know, covering the news?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 4:41:24 PM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 1862
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
I don't see the word "coverage" in "Fox News Channel Tax Day Tea Parties".
You guys just love to throw in words that aren't being used. What's up with that? Bias? Nope. Coverage? Nope. Sponsor? Nope. It's pretty easy to win an argument if you just go after strawmen. Really classy.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 5:00:11 PM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 1974
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
You guys just love to throw in words that aren't being used. What's up with that? Bias? Nope. Coverage? Nope. Sponsor? Nope. It's pretty easy to win an argument if you just go after strawmen.
I read exactly what you wrote, the words "it's like" make a connection meaning the two are similar, forgive me for commenting on what you actually wrote instead of what I think you wrote.
quote:
Really classy.
Underhanded jab at those who don't agree with you, how unlike you 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 5:20:50 PM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 1862
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
You guys just love to throw in words that aren't being used. What's up with that? Bias? Nope. Coverage? Nope. Sponsor? Nope. It's pretty easy to win an argument if you just go after strawmen.
I read exactly what you wrote, the words "it's like" make a connection meaning the two are similar, forgive me for commenting on what you actually wrote instead of what I think you wrote.
...except you didn't, you threw in the word "coverage" where I didn't use it. Don't do that. If you need me to break it down for you:
Fox News Channel Tax Day Tea Parties. It's like Fox News Channel Election Coverage or A Fox News Channel Tribute to The Republican Party.
Does that paragraph actually mean:
Fox News Channel Tax Day Tribute Tea Parties Coverage. It's like Fox News Channel Election Tribute Coverage Parties or A Fox News Channel Tribute to The Republican Coverage Party Parties.
No. That would be insane. If you can't parse out the meaning of "it's like" in the context I used it, I wonder why I use English at all. I use words in certain sequences to convey certain meanings. Your willful misinterpretation just makes these pedantic clarifications necessary. It makes me feel like I'm belittling you when I should have no need to, and it makes it apparent that you're not even trying to have an honest discussion. Speak real English and stop trying to play mix-and-match with the words I use.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 5:39:23 PM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 1974
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshanI...except you didn't, you threw in the word "coverage" where I didn't use it. Don't do that. If you need me to break it down for you:
You mentioned the fox news tea parties then stated "it's like Fox News Channel Election Coverage " which means you stated that one was like the other. What you are doing now is called crawfishing.
quote:
No. That would be insane. If you can't parse out the meaning of "it's like" in the context I used it, I wonder why I use English at all. I use words in certain sequences to convey certain meanings. Your willful misinterpretation just makes these pedantic clarifications necessary. It makes me feel like I'm belittling you when I should have no need to, and it makes it apparent that you're not even trying to have an honest discussion. Speak real English and stop trying to play mix-and-match with the words I use.
You are the one who stated that saying "Fox News Channel Tax Day Tribute Tea Parties" is like "Fox News Channel Election Coverage ". If that is not what you meant to say then don't say it.
I tried to have an honest discussion with you, your response was "beck, beck, beck". You parroting yourself without addressing the rebuttals addressed to you is not an honest discussion, it is you attempting to show us how superior your arguement is.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 6:17:39 PM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 1862
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
You are the one who stated that saying "Fox News Channel Tax Day Tribute Tea Parties" is like "Fox News Channel Election Coverage ". If that is not what you meant to say then don't say it.
Interestingly enough, no, I never said that. Pay attention to what I wrote and where you copy and paste from. I understand that you prefer to adopt Clintonian grammar strategies when you're talking with me, but do me the favor of not doing so.
Again, Fox News Channel Tax Day Tea Parties means just that. It does not mean Fox News Channel Tax Day Tea Parties Coverage.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 6:20:41 PM
|
|
|
LilMaryB
Posts: 255
Joined: 4/22/2009
Status: offline
|
Fox News' rhetoric echoes Ailes' long history of race-baiting
Under its president, Roger Ailes, Fox News routinely employs racially charged appeals to foment opposition to the Obama administration and other progressive figures, such as Glenn Beck's comments that President Obama is a "racist" and "has a deep-seated hatred for white people or the white culture." Before launching the Fox News Channel, Ailes worked as a media consultant for several Republican campaigns where evidence shows he similarly appealed to racial fears and biases for political gain, and as executive producer for Rush Limbaugh's television show, during which Limbaugh made several controversial statements.
Ailes' political and media history is littered with race-based appeals
As Nixon campaign consultant, Ailes reportedly looked for a "Wallaceite cab-driver" to bring up race at televised town hall meetings. As media consultant for Richard Nixon's 1968 campaign, Ailes directed televised town hall meetings in which Nixon answered questions from a supportive audience. According to Rick Pearlstein, Ailes suggested Nixon take a question from "A good, mean, Wallaceite cab-driver. Wouldn't that be great? Some guy to sit there and say, 'Awright, Mac, what about these n-word?" Pearlstein wrote, "Nixon then could abhor the uncivility of the words, while endorsing a 'moderate' version of the opinion. Ailes walked up and down a nearby taxi stand until he found a cabbie who fit the bill."
http://mediamatters.org/research/200910270001
Explains alot...
Perino says it "feels un-American" for White House to criticize a news outlet, but as Bush's press secretary she blasted NBC
Former White House press secretary and current Fox News contributor Dana Perino has recently contrasted the Obama administration's criticism of Fox News with the Bush administration's treatment of MSNBC, saying, "I could have taken that tack, but I thought it was not the right thing to do and I think it's mostly because it's really unproductive, it feels un-American, and it's not inspiring." However, Perino did criticize NBC, MSNBC's parent network, during her time as press secretary, asserting that NBC had "intentionally" mischaracterized remarks made by President Bush.
http://mediamatters.org/research/200910230002
< Message edited by LilMaryB -- 10/31/2009 6:32:31 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 6:21:01 PM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 1862
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
You mentioned the fox news tea parties then stated "it's like Fox News Channel Election Coverage " which means you stated that one was like the other.
You removed the context. Don't ever do that. It leads to these inane digressions.
It's not that the words appear on the same screen. It's that they're one line: Fox News Channel Tax Day Tea Parties. It's like Fox News Channel Election Coverage or A Fox News Channel Tribute to The Republican Party.
That was incredibly dishonest of you. You're a real class act.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 6:24:02 PM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 1974
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshanInterestingly enough, no, I never said that.
Actually it is exactly what you said.
quote:
Pay attention to what I wrote and where you copy and paste from. I understand that you prefer to adopt Clintonian grammar strategies when you're talking with me, but do me the favor of not doing so.
I am not the one trying to distort the meaning of what I am recorded in writing as saying. You said "it's like" which last time i checked means, well "it's like" which means is similar, is akin to, is the same as, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 6:27:13 PM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 1974
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
You mentioned the fox news tea parties then stated "it's like Fox News Channel Election Coverage " which means you stated that one was like the other.
You removed the context. Don't ever do that. It leads to these inane digressions.
It's not that the words appear on the same screen. It's that they're one line: Fox News Channel Tax Day Tea Parties. It's like Fox News Channel Election Coverage or A Fox News Channel Tribute to The Republican Party.
what is dishonest? it still says right there that IT'S LIKE fox news channel election coverage. So is it like election COVERAGE or isn't it
quote:
That was incredibly dishonest of you. You're a real class act.
You know what is really classy? Making underhanded insults at people who don't agree with you. You can make all the snide little insults you want, it doesn't bother me in the least. If pettiness is your thing then go for it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 8:08:03 PM
|
|
|
huangshan
Posts: 1862
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
You mentioned the fox news tea parties then stated "it's like Fox News Channel Election Coverage " which means you stated that one was like the other.
You removed the context. Don't ever do that. It leads to these inane digressions.
It's not that the words appear on the same screen. It's that they're one line: Fox News Channel Tax Day Tea Parties. It's like Fox News Channel Election Coverage or A Fox News Channel Tribute to The Republican Party.
what is dishonest? it still says right there that IT'S LIKE fox news channel election coverage. So is it like election COVERAGE or isn't it
No, it isn't.
It's like this.
First, I said "It's not that the words appear on the same screen. It's that they're one line".
Then, I used a colon like this: ":"
That indicates that the following are examples of this "one line" property.
The first is the one line that Fox used: "Fox News Channel Tax Day Tea Parties".
Then, uh-oh! "It's like". What could this mean? What property could I possibly be comparing? What was I talking about in the first place?
Oh, oh yes: "It's not that the words appear on the same screen. It's that they're one line".
Was I talking about your little "coverage" canard? No. Did I mention coverage? Yes, I perhaps stupidly thought that you wouldn't be childish enough to latch onto it and misconstrue what I said.
So what is it like? It's like Fox News Channel Election Coverage or A Fox News Channel Tribute to The Republican Party. In what way? In that they're one line, with "Fox News" and a subject.
See, if I say "it's like" and I give two examples, you gotta look for the commonality between the two examples. Did I mention "coverage" in the second example? No. Why? Because coverage was irrelevant to the point I was making.
quote:
quote:
That was incredibly dishonest of you. You're a real class act.
You know what is really classy? Making underhanded insults at people who don't agree with you.
I've been nothing but open about my disdain for your dishonesty. I know you know English, and I know you're not an idiot, congratulations. But all that means is that you're being both dishonest and childish when you so obviously and egregiously misconstrue my words.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obama Team Continues Effort to Isolate Fox News - 10/31/2009 8:11:01 PM
|
|
|
tafkam
Posts: 1323
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
|
Methinks this thread is sooo on the verge of being shut down....
Can't we play nice occasionally?
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
