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The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 9/28/2009 1:28:24 PM
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nightandday
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Hello, please excuse my lack of knowledge on this subject. I am posting this thread not to explain such a concept but to ask that such a concept be explained to me.
Over the years of being saved (8 years now) I have noticed that as I learn more about God and His Word, there is a tendency to just gloss over tracts or radio broadcasts that I might come across and dismiss them as "basic". Just like anything else in life, once there is a general understanding of a topic, there comes an increased hunger for more detailed information, etc.
I play the video game Tetris from time to time; but I can only play on level nine or I feel the game is too slow. I play the guitar sometimes, too, and there is always a deepening hunger to know more about it, to come up with new sounds, etc. This applies every human endeavor I can think of - when one runs so far, they wish to run further next time. When one climbs a mountain so high, they dream of a yet higher mountain. And on and on it goes. This appears to be something innate to the human soul, an increasing desire of more, more, MORE!
In the Bible, there are allusions made to maturity of faith. There are allusions made to the milk of the Word and the meat of the Word, and so forth.
Here is the heart of my concern: how much of the questing in the human spirit, in both natural man and in the spiritual man, are truly ordained of God, and indeed designed by Him and for His glory?
If it seems like I am presenting a de-evolution theory, you are right. I am not suggesting that we all go back to ignorance, but I am beginning to question the validity to always "going higher".
My question to the forum is this: are we always being called by God into "higher" places? Is part of the call of Christ in Revelation to the church who had lost their first love, a call to those who left the simplicity of faith in His finished work? Or, am I reading too much of my own theory into that?
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 9/28/2009 2:23:04 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
are we always being called by God into "higher" places?
I would say so, yes. Growing is part of who we are - it is part of every living thing. When we grow complacent in areas God has called us to grow, then we are not meeting the potential He has built into us.
quote:
Is part of the call of Christ in Revelation to the church who had lost their first love, a call to those who left the simplicity of faith in His finished work?
That depends. If someone takes their spiritual "knowledge" and create an Ivory Tower attitude, I would say that could be something Jesus was speaking about. But I've met many people who have grown to tremendous heights in their spiritual walk, but still maintain a childlike wonder about God. I don't think growth and abandoning one's first love are always connected.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 9/29/2009 10:27:10 AM
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agapist
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Seeing as the ceiling of Christian maturity is God, there is and will be always substantial room for growth, by the grace sufficient for us.
I believe God is in charge of where and how far we grow. There is no ideal Christian we should all strive to become and measure ourselves against; this can only lead to envy and pride.
God has a plan and I need only concern myself with following his will--and not with what heights I may reach.
I can look at it as a climb or simply take it as a walk with Christ, a path where there is work for me to do by his design, grace, and power. And along the way I have the joy of discovery and the delight in his presence.
He sets the pace, he chooses the direction.
To me, the "divine discontent" that is spoken of comes when I wander away from his companionship; it is not the driving force behind a Christian to go forward. We are powered by love, not the worldly competitive edge.
The view will change and change and change and change, as will the seasons. All of it disclosing yet another facet of His wonder and glory, appearing so different from the view we had before. There is no end to this discovery.
For me, we are each a unique expression of his love. Unique means one of a kind, incomparable. With Christ, I have the opportunity and privilege to be wholly what God intended me to be, to realize my true purpose and potential, and that gift lets me realize what is for my ultimate well-being.
It is not a goal to achieve but simply a way of life that serves.
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 9/29/2009 7:27:22 PM
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nightandday
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Seeing as the ceiling of Christian maturity is God, there is and will be always substantial room for growth, by the grace sufficient for us.
I believe God is in charge of where and how far we grow. There is no ideal Christian we should all strive to become and measure ourselves against; this can only lead to envy and pride.
God has a plan and I need only concern myself with following his will--and not with what heights I may reach.
I can look at it as a climb or simply take it as a walk with Christ, a path where there is work for me to do by his design, grace, and power. And along the way I have the joy of discovery and the delight in his presence.
He sets the pace, he chooses the direction.
To me, the "divine discontent" that is spoken of comes when I wander away from his companionship; it is not the driving force behind a Christian to go forward. We are powered by love, not the worldly competitive edge.
The view will change and change and change and change, as will the seasons. All of it disclosing yet another facet of His wonder and glory, appearing so different from the view we had before. There is no end to this discovery.
For me, we are each a unique expression of his love. Unique means one of a kind, incomparable. With Christ, I have the opportunity and privilege to be wholly what God intended me to be, to realize my true purpose and potential, and that gift lets me realize what is for my ultimate well-being.
It is not a goal to achieve but simply a way of life that serves.
This is a very thoughtful and beautiful response, agapist! Thank you for sharing this with us all.
As I look around in my own life after 8 years of being born-again, I see much supposed room for improvement. Sometimes I think to myself, I should have this many __________s by now. Insert any number of nouns in the blank: souls led to Christ, church committees led, mission churches planted, etc., etc.,.
Although you state we shouldn't compare, and even Jesus affirms this to Peter at the end of John's Gospel, it is so easy to fall into that trap.
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 10/2/2009 12:14:30 PM
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RJR_fan
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Well, the traditional Reformed doctrine of sanctification leads us to anticipate a progressive growth in our desire, and ability, to live in terms of God's Word. This happens as we walk with God day after day, are faithful in small things, and simply do the routine things we know we need to do.
The American lust for instant-everything, however, has created a market for spiritual short-cuts, as alternatives to the life-long helical sport of discipleship!
It is especially during seasons of the church's impotence that the snake oil salesmen find their most receptive audiences. When we, as a people, have lost our grip on God's purposes, when we have been taken captive by an alien ideology, we become vulnerable to easy "solutions." Why seek God's will through prayer, fasting, and Bible study, church attendance, the sacraments, and sound preaching, when a Todd Bentley can confer an instant experience of "higher" ecstasy upon you?
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 10/4/2009 3:40:04 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
Here is the heart of my concern: how much of the questing in the human spirit, in both natural man and in the spiritual man, are truly ordained of God, and indeed designed by Him and for His glory?
Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.
But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, of laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. Hebrews 5:11-6:2
I am answering your question from the standpoint of spiritual man (rather than natural man). Spiritual man is given spiritual understanding. But God's wisdom is not as human wisdom. Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, and which have not entered the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those who love Him. (Isaiah 64:4) It is a revealed, imparted wisdom.
Yet Paul addressed the lack of maturity in the Corinthian church and the writer of Hebrews addresses the same. Paul spoke of the men of flesh, babes, mere men in the church at Corinth. And Hebrews speaks of the need to pay closer attention, neglectfulness of our great salvation, dull hearing and lack of pressing on to maturity. It is all rooted in that great sin of unbelief. And when you are in unbelief, you are living and believing in yourself.
So spiritual men can live as carnal men and fail to take heed and mature. Why?
The answer is also given by both Paul and Hebrews. Men easily get off track and begin to focus on something or someone other than Jesus. And spiritual men usually get off track on some good spiritual subject or person.
God has spoken through His Son, Jesus, Who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of God's nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. We are exhorted to pay closer, much closer attention to Him, to see Jesus, holding fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Paul determined to know nothing except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I Cor 2:2 And He counted all things loss compared to knowing Christ. He wanted to know Christ, the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death.
And so he pressed on, not regarding himself (ever) as having attained it, but he pressed on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. And we are encouraged to press on as well.
And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. John 17:3 Eternal life is knowing God, the Father, through Jesus, the Son, and it begins when we are born of the Spirit. The knowing is intended to be a life long journey of growing closer, oneness with the Beloved.
Can't get any higher than that. 
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 10/4/2009 7:46:55 PM
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agapist
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Very nicely put, liveloved. For myself I would summarize what you said as the "higher spiritual Christian life" being the lowly servant, totally dedicated in all things to simply knowing Christ and doing His will in all things. The highest goal being last according to worldly values and wisdom.
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 10/5/2009 3:01:49 AM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
Men easily get off track and begin to focus on something or someone other than Jesus. And spiritual men usually get off track on some good spiritual subject or person.
Excellent.
The first thing Ezekiel saw in chapter 8 was the "image of jealousy" -- something that must have been noble in appearance, since it was so prominently displayed. He had to "dig a little deeper" to find the subterranean chambers of vile imagery.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 10/5/2009 3:13:40 AM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
are we always being called by God into "higher" places?
I have real problems with this kind of language, when "higher" is defined as some kind of more intense experience. If we pursue more intense experiences, we find ourselves in really strange places, like Lakeland. The God of the Bible is not the only one who can provide wonderful spiritual experiences -- ask any Mormon for his testimony about "the burning in the bosom." Visit any United Pentecostal service.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 10/31/2009 9:48:07 PM
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Liveloved
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We are (being called into 'higher' places) if we know God and are growing in our relationship with Him. Higher is not a term that means I'm better than you. Higher refers to closer to the Godhead. Is that not something every and all believers should desire?
Being called into 'higher' places is really a downward descent such as is described by Paul in his letter to the believers at Philippi. This is Jesus' 'higher' life.
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Philippians 2:5-8
The Apostle Paul seems to think this call to a 'higher' life, which Jesus lived, is a call to each one of us. 'Have this attitude in yourselves'. This is a command and is for everyone who calls themselves a disciple of Jesus.
It is a call to humility. It is no wonder so few respond.
< Message edited by Liveloved -- 10/31/2009 9:54:49 PM >
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 11/1/2009 7:47:45 AM
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Digrieze
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
We are (being called into 'higher' places) if we know God and are growing in our relationship with Him. Higher is not a term that means I'm better than you. Higher refers to closer to the Godhead. Is that not something every and all believers should desire.........
It is a call to humility. It is no wonder so few respond.
I totally agree, the call to maturity is a call to growth in our relationship with God, and the closer you get to God, the less room you have in you life for pride. We may see through a mirror darkly, but even with the distortion as we get closer to God we see more clearly how far we have fallen from Gods' intent for us, pride, arrogance, and the desire to lord our experiences over others has little place in our hearts.
When you find someone who is prideful, arrogant, boastful, or wants to take their experiences with God and lord over or control others with it you have a sure sign of either an immature person that learned nothing of God from their "experience" or their "spiritual experience" came from the wrong spirit, since they are lead farther from God, not closer.
_____________________________
My hope, my wish, my prayer is that you find the life that Jesus created you to live and has hidden within Himself so in living that life you may have a uniquely intimate communion with Him. (Col.3:1-4)
Yours in the love of Jesus
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 11/1/2009 8:20:13 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
It is a call to humility. It is no wonder so few respond.
Is one really a Christian who does not respont to the call of obedience (humility)?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 11/3/2009 11:06:19 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
It is a call to humility. It is no wonder so few respond.
Is one really a Christian who does not respont to the call of obedience (humility)?
Thanks
RC
I'll leave that one up to the Lord, RC. I do know that pride is the most subtle and devious of sins and blinds the one caught in it. Does the Lord have great mercy? Absolutely. Will one who has been caught in the sin of pride, been blinded to their own self loving ways, be found in heaven? I don't know. I pray for one person specifically because of this sin.
But I don't spend my time trying to figure out who the 'real Christians' are. I pray regarding the things the Lord chooses to show me. That is enough.
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 11/4/2009 12:40:09 PM
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cposey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
It is a call to humility. It is no wonder so few respond.
Is one really a Christian who does not respont to the call of obedience (humility)?
Thanks
RC
Here is a couple of humility questions for you.
How long have you been saved?
Did you get it right always since your salvation?
Why do i feel the need to question others salvation?
Why can't I remember my own walk and see how gracefully, patiently and mercifully God has dealt with me while I learned?
Can I extend this same understanding and patience with others, instead of constantly questioning their salvation?
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 11/4/2009 1:16:44 PM
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laura...
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The problem with the terminology "higher Christian life" is that it lends itself to the concept that there is some secret knowledge or greater spiritual experiences we can discover that some lower level Christian is unable to enjoy.
quote:
We are (being called into 'higher' places) if we know God and are growing in our relationship with Him. Higher is not a term that means I'm better than you. Higher refers to closer to the Godhead. Is that not something every and all believers should desire?
Being called into 'higher' places is really a downward descent such as is described by Paul in his letter to the believers at Philippi. This is Jesus' 'higher' life.
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Philippians 2:5-8
The Apostle Paul seems to think this call to a 'higher' life, which Jesus lived, is a call to each one of us. 'Have this attitude in yourselves'. This is a command and is for everyone who calls themselves a disciple of Jesus.
It is a call to humility. It is no wonder so few respond.
Yes and amen. The "higher life" in the Kingdom of God is to "share in Christ's sufferings." That doesn't sound like much fun.
quote:
In the Bible, there are allusions made to maturity of faith. There are allusions made to the milk of the Word and the meat of the Word, and so forth.
Hebrews 5:11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Hebrews 6: 1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so
The "milk" or "elementary teachings" are some pretty heavy stuff: repentance, baptisms, faith, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. So, what is the "meat" that the mature must be learning? What is so "meaty" that one has to have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil before it is palatable? The answer to those questions is back in verse 5:13, "teaching about righteousness". So, the "higher life", the "meat" is crucifying our sin nature and walking in righteousness. It's not goosebumps, visions and secret knowledge. It's obedience, living a life worthy of the calling of Christ, walking the talk, keeping the flesh in check. Yep, pretty unpalatable.
< Message edited by laura... -- 11/4/2009 1:24:36 PM >
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 11/4/2009 4:38:46 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
laura. . .
The "milk" or "elementary teachings" are some pretty heavy stuff: repentance, baptisms, faith, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. So, what is the "meat" that the mature must be learning? What is so "meaty" that one has to have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil before it is palatable? The answer to those questions is back in verse 5:13, "teaching about righteousness". So, the "higher life", the "meat" is crucifying our sin nature and walking in righteousness. It's not goosebumps, visions and secret knowledge. It's obedience, living a life worthy of the calling of Christ, walking the talk, keeping the flesh in check. Yep, pretty unpalatable.
Thanks, laura. I enjoyed the things you shared. I'd like to 'expand' (or is it 'expound'?  ) on your final paragraph.
You are quite correct in asking the question regarding meat. What is meat? Why is it so unpalatable?
I'll expand the thought by taking us back to Paul's discussion in Philippians. It is definitely the path of righteousness but these are Paul's words:
. . . and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death. . . Phil 3:9-10
The path of righteousness often turns back to the Law and becomes 'do this/don't do that' and is once more a righteousness of 'my own'. That's why Paul has to emphasize (to people like us who have a deeply ingrained habit of returning to bondage) this righteousness:
is not his own (read verses 5 & 6 for a recap)
is not derived from obedience to the Law
is through faith
from God through faith
It is all about knowing Him which includes knowing His power (the power that raised Him from the dead) and also His sufferings. And it is in knowing His sufferings that our death occurs as well, being conformed to His death.
You're quite right. It is not goosebumps. . . although when in His presence, one does sometimes feel strangely. And it could involve visions but that is certainly not the norm. And 'secret knowledge' can be misunderstood as well. When Paul was describing the mystery of the gospel in I Cor 2, for example, this 'mystery' can certainly sound 'secret'. Yet God chooses who to reveal Himself to. Yes, it is mysterious and I don't pretend to know much.
But like Paul, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. It is a path of suffering. Not palatable? You're right on, laura. When I read the stories of martyrs who have willingly died for Jesus, I am in awe.
But I want His taste in my mouth nonetheless.
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 11/4/2009 7:52:15 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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The"higher Christian life" was preached upon and encouraged in what was called the Keswick conventions. These in the late 1800's early 1900's
Youll find some very good teachers on the subject...Jesse Penn Lewis, Andrew Murray.
Ive read them, Andrew Murray is among the best Ive ever read on the subject of Christian maturity and Walking in the Spirit.
Jesse Penn Lewis did War on the Saints for which she is famous for.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 11/4/2009 9:28:35 PM
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laura...
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From: NE Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
laura. . .
The "milk" or "elementary teachings" are some pretty heavy stuff: repentance, baptisms, faith, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. So, what is the "meat" that the mature must be learning? What is so "meaty" that one has to have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil before it is palatable? The answer to those questions is back in verse 5:13, "teaching about righteousness". So, the "higher life", the "meat" is crucifying our sin nature and walking in righteousness. It's not goosebumps, visions and secret knowledge. It's obedience, living a life worthy of the calling of Christ, walking the talk, keeping the flesh in check. Yep, pretty unpalatable.
Thanks, laura. I enjoyed the things you shared. I'd like to 'expand' (or is it 'expound'? ) on your final paragraph.
You are quite correct in asking the question regarding meat. What is meat? Why is it so unpalatable?
I'll expand the thought by taking us back to Paul's discussion in Philippians. It is definitely the path of righteousness but these are Paul's words:
. . . and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death. . . Phil 3:9-10
The path of righteousness often turns back to the Law and becomes 'do this/don't do that' and is once more a righteousness of 'my own'. That's why Paul has to emphasize (to people like us who have a deeply ingrained habit of returning to bondage) this righteousness:
is not his own (read verses 5 & 6 for a recap)
is not derived from obedience to the Law
is through faith
from God through faith
It is all about knowing Him which includes knowing His power (the power that raised Him from the dead) and also His sufferings. And it is in knowing His sufferings that our death occurs as well, being conformed to His death.
You're quite right. It is not goosebumps. . . although when in His presence, one does sometimes feel strangely. And it could involve visions but that is certainly not the norm. And 'secret knowledge' can be misunderstood as well. When Paul was describing the mystery of the gospel in I Cor 2, for example, this 'mystery' can certainly sound 'secret'. Yet God chooses who to reveal Himself to. Yes, it is mysterious and I don't pretend to know much.
But like Paul, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. It is a path of suffering. Not palatable? You're right on, laura. When I read the stories of martyrs who have willingly died for Jesus, I am in awe.
But I want His taste in my mouth nonetheless.
I like your expounding. &:)
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 11/4/2009 11:17:36 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
The"higher Christian life" was preached upon and encouraged in what was called the Keswick conventions. These in the late 1800's early 1900's
Youll find some very good teachers on the subject...Jesse Penn Lewis, Andrew Murray.
Ive read them, Andrew Murray is among the best Ive ever read on the subject of Christian maturity and Walking in the Spirit.
Jesse Penn Lewis did War on the Saints for which she is famous for.
John
Thanks, John. I've read extensively of both authors. Molded by the Cross by Jesse Penn-Lewis was one of my favorites. . . and your mentioning her makes me want to go back and read her.
And when we were visiting family in New Zealand, I found a old Keswick hymnal.
quote:
I like your expounding. &:) Thanks, laura.
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 11/6/2009 12:07:47 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6723
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
But I don't spend my time trying to figure out who the 'real Christians' are. I pray regarding the things the Lord chooses to show me. That is enough.
Maybe this is why we have different opinions on a few subjects.
As a Pastor, Scripture tells me;
(Heb 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Since I have to give an account for the souls of those I minister to, I guess i have a little different track than if I was not a Pastor. The following two verses are always in my heart, and therefore in my mind and my speaking;
(2Ti 4:2) Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
and
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 11/6/2009 7:57:56 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1812
Status: offline
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quote:
Thanks, John. I've read extensively of both authors. Molded by the Cross by Jesse Penn-Lewis was one of my favorites. . . and your mentioning her makes me want to go back and read her.
Oops, after I posted this I remembered that Molded by the Cross is actually a biography written by someone else. I'm not in my library at the moment but the name Metcalfe comes to mind. Anyway, I was not intending to mislead.
quote:
Maybe this is why we have different opinions on a few subjects.
As a Pastor, Scripture tells me;
(Heb 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Since I have to give an account for the souls of those I minister to, I guess i have a little different track than if I was not a Pastor. The following two verses are always in my heart, and therefore in my mind and my speaking;
(2Ti 4:2) Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
and
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Thanks
RC
RC, I am thankful that you take your responsibility seriously. I have only met one man in pastoral ministry who did. I do as I have the pastoral gift but every other 'pastor' I have been under has been more about himself than concerned for the souls of those under him. A very sad, sad reality. . .
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 11/12/2009 12:54:55 AM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 839
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
Thanks, John. I've read extensively of both authors. Molded by the Cross by Jesse Penn-Lewis was one of my favorites. . . and your mentioning her makes me want to go back and read her.
Oops, after I posted this I remembered that Molded by the Cross is actually a biography written by someone else. I'm not in my library at the moment but the name Metcalfe comes to mind. Anyway, I was not intending to mislead.
quote:
Maybe this is why we have different opinions on a few subjects.
As a Pastor, Scripture tells me;
(Heb 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Since I have to give an account for the souls of those I minister to, I guess i have a little different track than if I was not a Pastor. The following two verses are always in my heart, and therefore in my mind and my speaking;
(2Ti 4:2) Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
and
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Thanks
RC
RC, I am thankful that you take your responsibility seriously. I have only met one man in pastoral ministry who did. I do as I have the pastoral gift but every other 'pastor' I have been under has been more about himself than concerned for the souls of those under him. A very sad, sad reality. . .
Liveloved:
There are some landmines in the 'higher life' genre. There are teachers that go off into lala land concerning sanctification and the Holy Spirit ministry.
The pitfalls like many other avenues in the Christian life are extremes of practise, extremes of doctrine and plain ole error.
Finney taught this in his own fashion and warped it out pretty well. Revivalist mindsets often defer to the 'higher life' in Christian walk, but what they seem to miss is the finished work of Christ already appropriated and applied to the believer. For the most part most believers agree in the principle but get bogged down in terminologies because of their theological reference points.
One specific one is Calvinism. The doctrine of perseverence of the saints is one of the 5 points, in it they stress the inworking of the Spirit to sanctify the believer through out his life and conform him to the image of Christ. But they stress it in the form of God's sovereign working without the necessity of mans sweat and blood trying to 'stay saved' etc etc. Now there are plenty of believers that dont get bogged down in the slough of despondency over their current spiritual condition. They are just plain happy about their salvation and expect to enter life because Jesus plainly loves them. But to these kind of believers the warnings and admonitions from the Calvies about God saving them because He full well intends to without the need to sweat it out by an effort of the flesh causes them to feel funny about their own joy. The question arises, "Is this joy I feel coming to easy?", Do I need to back up and check my self because I dont understand why all the heavy warnings about self-effort? These and other such questionings occur because serious believers are serious about holiness. But that in itself can cause people who have no reason to get introspective to get introspective and look for rats where there are none.
The danger of self-examination is that it can cause perfectly healthy believers to turn introspective and turn their eyes off of Christ. The danger of 'higher life' teaching in some platforms creates a false dependence upon introspectiveness and self-examination that puts the flesh to work on what only the Spirit of God can fix. Simply put, both legalists and 'higher life' believers can get side tracked from a joyful daily walk with Christ when they think that 'higher life' will give them something outside the finished work of Christ.
A 'higher christian life' is nothing more than a continual growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I know some of my calvy friends have a problem with the 'higher life' teachings. I dont. I think that some of them should get a good dose of teaching from Andrew Murray and enjoy their heavenly Father and enjoy their current spiritual condition...even if it does need alot of work, (just like mine does).
John
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Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 11/12/2009 11:52:33 PM
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agapeflight
Posts: 120
Joined: 3/29/2009
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In proverbs it says 'The way of the wise leads upward so that he may escape from hell below.'
It is an analogy. The real process if you will is that of being more and more conformed to the image of God's dear Son. Since it is god who works in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure miracles are just as possible to a new born in Christ as a mature saint. However, the way God uses people is that the 'anointing' seems to get stronger on lives that are deeply committed over time. That does not mean however that everyone who really wants to becomes a new Paul the Apostle.
So I agree with what you are saying that this fixation really sort of an addiction to always reaching higher and higher is sort of, well maybe coming from our sin nature. We have to live in this world and represent and compared to all the things we see in the Bible things right now are pretty not awesome in alot of ways.
I guess I would just pray it out. Because the basics man, I think when you get to a place where you can desire the pure milk of the word you are manifesting some real wisdom there. Alot of pastors stumble continually because they always think there is a next deeper revelation to be had and I am not sure there is. The bond of love in the Spirit is always deeper but the teachings of Christ are a solid associates degree at best and I think He intended it that way. The information is intended not to be too difficult to a saved person but the implications are intended and are infinite.
David says 'I have quieted my soul like a babe taken from the breast. I do not think on things too lofty for me.' Psalm 113
There is growth and a progression but once you are fully trained about our mission then I think we are to be about sharing the gospel through word and deed, that is our charge.
I have known brothers who were so into the meat they would not even want to sit and talk about the basic points of the cross. But I find the further I get with the Lord the more satisfying these things are. Melchizedek is awesome, and clearly Paul had many revelations about such things but what does it really say that is not said openly in the Book of Revelation and in Romans, through Christ, God will freely give us all things. The inheritance is beyond all imagining of the frail world we live in, so now that that is settled let's get to alying up some treasure over there instead of trying to fight over intellectual real estate in this life.
Just some points to consider.
God bless.
< Message edited by agapeflight -- 11/12/2009 11:59:46 PM >
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RE: The concept of a "higher Christian life" - 11/14/2009 2:29:41 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1812
Status: offline
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quote:
Simply put, both legalists and 'higher life' believers can get side tracked from a joyful daily walk with Christ when they think that 'higher life' will give them something outside the finished work of Christ.
A 'higher christian life' is nothing more than a continual growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I know some of my calvy friends have a problem with the 'higher life' teachings. I dont. I think that some of them should get a good dose of teaching from Andrew Murray and enjoy their heavenly Father and enjoy their current spiritual condition...even if it does need alot of work, (just like mine does).
John
I appreciated your thoughts regarding the higher Christian life, John. And you are so right about the dangers. There are dangers on both sides. That is why a close, intimate, personal relationship with Jesus is so necessary. Manna grows old if not gathered on a daily basis.
And I know the dangers of introspection 'up close and personal' since that is my bent as a melancholy. But Jesus has a wonderful way of freeing me (and all who rely on Him) from my self and at the same time creating me to be who He intends me to be.
Yes, it is a continual growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is a great definition of the 'higher Christian life' and the life everyone born of the Spirit should embrace.\o/
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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