Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (Full Version)

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DeliveredDarling -> Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/13/2009 10:20:08 PM)

I think this should be discussed. Wat too often it seems that we are given counsel to just forgive and leave it at that. I'm wondering what benefit that is to people. Jesus forgave AND corrected. His whole Word is filled with corrections for His children. So what do you think about this?



MrFribbles -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/13/2009 11:15:03 PM)

Jesus forgave people's sins. We can't forgive sins, so there's a large difference.
But at the same time, I don't think there's anything wrong with lovingly admonishing others to correct sinful behavior.



DeliveredDarling -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/14/2009 6:28:19 AM)

That's an interesting point about sins Mr. Fribbles. Now, the thoughts that came to me after reading your post:

1) Surely Jesus took some flack-is that sin?
2) When others treat us badly-isn't that sin as well?
3) If we are to imitate Christ, wouldn't we then go about forgiving like He did, with admonishments?

To forgive, without any sort of correction whatsoever, doesn't seem all that beneficial. Even Grace comes with a warning! I'm just thinking, If we are offended in some way, shouldn't we correct? Correct is probably not the right word here, admonish, acknowledge, etc.

let's say that we do not address an offense and the person continues to repeat behavior, have we really done them any good by letting the offense go?

Do our children benefit when they do something wrong and we forgive and let it go?

Don't we teach people how to treat us?



rcjames -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/14/2009 10:32:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

I think this should be discussed. Wat too often it seems that we are given counsel to just forgive and leave it at that. I'm wondering what benefit that is to people. Jesus forgave AND corrected. His whole Word is filled with corrections for His children. So what do you think about this?


(Mat 6:14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

(Mat 6:15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Seems plain enough to this ole man.

Thanks
RC



solarflare -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/14/2009 10:35:00 AM)

I think a large part of Chrisitianity thinks we just forgive ..ie. swallow hard...pat the offender on the back, and go on. In love of course.
Why then, are there so many divorces between supposed believers? Why are so many believers walking around in a state of unforgivenss and offended emotions?

I think Scripture is clear that if we have something against another believer, we should 'leave our gift at the altar'...go to our brother/sister...and make things right. Matt.5

I do not believe that 'just forgiving' in many cases is what is meant by forgiveness. Certainly we are to forgive as we have been forgiven...Scripture actually says to 'forgive from the heart' which is way more than lip service. But, how about honesty...not honesty to hurt someone, but to resolve conflict by truly extending Christ's love which means to resolve and repent of behavior that causes others to stumble.

If an individual actually takes the time to work through these things, it means changing yourself...it can hurt...lip service forgiveness is hurting alot of Christians.



DeliveredDarling -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/14/2009 2:14:12 PM)

quote:

I think a large part of Chrisitianity thinks we just forgive ..ie. swallow hard...pat the offender on the back, and go on. In love of course.
Why then, are there so many divorces between supposed believers? Why are so many believers walking around in a state of unforgivenss and offended emotions?

I think Scripture is clear that if we have something against another believer, we should 'leave our gift at the altar'...go to our brother/sister...and make things right. Matt.5

I do not believe that 'just forgiving' in many cases is what is meant by forgiveness. Certainly we are to forgive as we have been forgiven...Scripture actually says to 'forgive from the heart' which is way more than lip service. But, how about honesty...not honesty to hurt someone, but to resolve conflict by truly extending Christ's love which means to resolve and repent of behavior that causes others to stumble.

If an individual actually takes the time to work through these things, it means changing yourself...it can hurt...lip service forgiveness is hurting alot of Christians.


You got my whole point![:)] I agree completely. Why is it so hard to grasp this concept though?


RC, I'm looking deeper than that scripture. This isn't a simple topic if you really think about it. I'm looking at Jesus' actions, not just His words. I'm really looking at how He demonstrated the things He taught. We miss a lot just by pulling applicable scriptures out-we forget how many questions we have are answered through the actions demonstrated biblically.[:)]



stampinlady -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/14/2009 6:29:17 PM)

Are you talking about going to another believer, telling them that they sinned against you and then poof you're best buddies again?[8D]

Most don't take to kindly to correction especially elders so how do you deal with those situations? I truely think that there are many who really aren't believers.



rcjames -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/14/2009 6:36:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
RC, I'm looking deeper than that scripture. This isn't a simple topic if you really think about it. I'm looking at Jesus' actions, not just His words. I'm really looking at how He demonstrated the things He taught. We miss a lot just by pulling applicable scriptures out-we forget how many questions we have are answered through the actions demonstrated biblically.[:)]


Well let's look at Peter's question about forgiveness, and Jesus' instruction concerrning it;

(Mat 18:21) Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

(Mat 18:22) Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

The rest of chapter 18, verses 23-35, give a wonder parable concerning forgiveness.

I can find no caveat's concerning correcting somone before forgiving them. If you do please post them.

Thanks
RC



DeliveredDarling -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/14/2009 9:52:33 PM)

quote:

Are you talking about going to another believer, telling them that they sinned against you and then poof you're best buddies again?


No.More like if somebody was rude or something like that, Christians (proclaimed) acting unbecomingly etc.



DeliveredDarling -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/14/2009 9:58:46 PM)

quote:



Well let's look at Peter's question about forgiveness, and Jesus' instruction concerrning it;

(Mat 18:21) Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

(Mat 18:22) Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

The rest of chapter 18, verses 23-35, give a wonder parable concerning forgiveness.

I can find no caveat's concerning correcting somone before forgiving them. If you do please post them.


It seems you are responding as though, not forgiving is an issue here. Forgiving isn't the main point. Forgiving is mandated-not debatable.

It's the correcting them or letting it slide I'm asking about.

EX: Your SS teacher makes a snide comment about you to a friend of yours. Your friend tells you because now, everybody knows what he said. Do you let it go? Or do you approach him and tell him how you feel, obviously while extending the grace he so carelessly forgot to extend to you?

That's just one ex. I really started this thread because of one of MYCATSMOKEY"S threads about a situation that happened to her. In her situation the offender had a pattern of behavior that has been overlooked in the church, so the woman just continues to do it. So, that's probably the more applicable example to go by.



rcjames -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/15/2009 10:17:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
It's the correcting them or letting it slide I'm asking about.


Well it seems that Christ did a lot of correcting, and giving instructions about correcting, but in the following, he forgave with any correction;

(Luk 23:34) Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

All instructions for Christians to do "Correcting" or helping someone out of sin is directed towards a fellow Christian, and I can find no case where the correcting is a condition for forgiving. (with the exception of one repenting to become a Christian).

Doesn't mean its not there, I just haven't came up with it.

Thanks
RC



stampinlady -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/15/2009 12:44:00 PM)

Isn't this what's what's being discussed in Matt. 18 ?
Dd, are you not sure whether we are to correct a sister/brother for bad behavior?

Years ago I had an issue with another sister about something she had said to a another sister. I felt it was wrong and called her ont it. Nothing changed so I went to our one of our pastors and he took it to the head pastor, don't know why, but ... . I spoke with the head pastor about it and he took and turned what was truely wrong into a "personality" thing and I just left it alone. We eventually made up, but my attitude towards this pastor was changed. I didn't hold him as an authority anymore because he chose to ignore sin. We eventually left that church after awhile.

James tells us to "confess our sins one to another" for a reason. We sin and need to be held accoutable.



rcjames -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/15/2009 1:45:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stampinlady

Isn't this what's what's being discussed in Matt. 18 ?
Dd, are you not sure whether we are to correct a sister/brother for bad behavior?

Years ago I had an issue with another sister about something she had said to a another sister. I felt it was wrong and called her ont it. Nothing changed so I went to our one of our pastors and he took it to the head pastor, don't know why, but ... . I spoke with the head pastor about it and he took and turned what was truely wrong into a "personality" thing and I just left it alone. We eventually made up, but my attitude towards this pastor was changed. I didn't hold him as an authority anymore because he chose to ignore sin. We eventually left that church after awhile.

James tells us to "confess our sins one to another" for a reason. We sin and need to be held accoutable.


I do not disagree with your post, but what about dealing with non-Believers?

Thanks
RC

edited to clarify that I do agree with the copied post (typo; my bad)



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/15/2009 2:04:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

I think this should be discussed. Wat too often it seems that we are given counsel to just forgive and leave it at that. I'm wondering what benefit that is to people. Jesus forgave AND corrected. His whole Word is filled with corrections for His children. So what do you think about this?


Jesus is God. He knows who the believers are and who the pretenders are. We are to correct our children, and to speak the truth in love. If you have no relationship with the person who lives in sin, will that person listen to you? First, they do not recognize you as having authority over them; second, if they do not love God, why will they heed your correction? Remember that some people resist correction. "they will not endure sound doctrine but will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts" (2 Tim 4:3). We need to know when and how to speak, and when to remain silent.

Proverbs 12 (NLT)
15 Fools think they need no advice, but the wise listen to others.

16 A fool is quick-tempered, but a wise person stays calm when insulted.

17 An honest witness tells the truth; a false witness tells lies.

18 Some people make cutting remarks, but the words of the wise bring healing.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/15/2009 2:30:50 PM)

Accidental double post



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/15/2009 2:32:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
It's the correcting them or letting it slide I'm asking about.

EX: Your SS teacher makes a snide comment about you to a friend of yours. Your friend tells you because now, everybody knows what he said. Do you let it go? Or do you approach him and tell him how you feel, obviously while extending the grace he so carelessly forgot to extend to you?

That's just one ex. I really started this thread because of one of MYCATSMOKEY"S threads about a situation that happened to her. In her situation the offender had a pattern of behavior that has been overlooked in the church, so the woman just continues to do it. So, that's probably the more applicable example to go by.


Yes, if you have the courage, you should go to the teacher and ask him if he said that and why he didn't come to you if he felt you were doing something wrong. Think about this: are you guilty as charged? If I were guilty, I'd try to change my behavior, and I'd go to him and tell him that I want to change. But if your normal response when attacked is to fight back, you should probly forgo the confrontation.

Proverbs 12 (NIV)
16 A fool shows his annoyance at once,
but a prudent man overlooks an insult.



DeliveredDarling -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/15/2009 6:33:27 PM)

quote:

I can find no case where the correcting is a condition for forgiving.


Just for clarification, that's not what I am saying-putting conditions on forgiveness I mean.

I'm asking if it is something we are supposed to do. Are we?



DeliveredDarling -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/15/2009 6:34:36 PM)

edit: I had a double post too! Hmmmmmm...................



rcjames -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/15/2009 7:03:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

quote:

I can find no case where the correcting is a condition for forgiving.


Just for clarification, that's not what I am saying-putting conditions on forgiveness I mean.

I'm asking if it is something we are supposed to do. Are we?


If a Christian is in error, we are instructed to haep how them the way back to a relatonship with Christ.

I can find no such instruction for non-believers, except sharing the Gospel which may or may not include correcting the lost person.

But that might just be me.

Thanks
RC



rcjames -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/15/2009 7:08:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
EX: Your SS teacher makes a snide comment about you to a friend of yours. Your friend tells you because now, everybody knows what he said. Do you let it go? Or do you approach him and tell him how you feel, obviously while extending the grace he so carelessly forgot to extend to you?


If I had a situation such as this, I would chide my friend for being a tale bearer, then I would sincerely pray before I went to the person.

My reasoning for that would be that I would not know if the SS Teacher said anything or not, and stirring up a hornet's nest is a real possibility.

If I felt led to go the the SS Teachers it would not be in an accusatory manner, but in a spirit of humility, and seeking an end to the gossip mill that my friend bought into.

Then see where things go.

Thanks
RC



DeliveredDarling -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/15/2009 7:11:42 PM)

quote:


I can find no such instruction for non-believers, except sharing the Gospel which may or may not include correcting the lost person.


OK, let's set aside for a minute whether the person is a Christian or not. Sat the person insulted us, it's something they do on a regular basis.

Do we stand up for ourselves or ignore it, knowing that it will happen again, because we keep forgiving them and not correcting them.

I asked in another thread, don't we teach people how to treat us based on our reaction to their behavior?



rcjames -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/15/2009 7:31:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

quote:


I can find no such instruction for non-believers, except sharing the Gospel which may or may not include correcting the lost person.


OK, let's set aside for a minute whether the person is a Christian or not. Sat the person insulted us, it's something they do on a regular basis.

Do we stand up for ourselves or ignore it, knowing that it will happen again, because we keep forgiving them and not correcting them.

I asked in another thread, don't we teach people how to treat us based on our reaction to their behavior?


If it is not a Christian that is railing me, I consider if I have been a bad witness for Christ. If a have been a bad witness I repent and apologize and try to be a better witness.

If I am right with God over what ever the situation is; I just ignore it, and rest in this Scritpure

(1Pe 4:14) If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of God and of glory rests on you. Truly according to them, He is blasphemed, but according to you He is glorified.

But then again, that is just me.

Thanks
RC



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/15/2009 9:11:58 PM)

Forgiveness and correction are two different things. They often do not apply to each other at all. Standing up for yourself and letting another know that you were offended is different. If you were offended you do have a right to let the other person know and give them an opportunity to apologize (repent). However, forgiveness is not dependent upon correction or letting someone know they offended you.

The brother does have specific remedies on times when your brother has offended you. But forgiveness is not dependent upon whether you inform your brother that he has offended you or not.



solarflare -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/16/2009 9:28:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam

Forgiveness and correction are two different things. They often do not apply to each other at all. Standing up for yourself and letting another know that you were offended is different. If you were offended you do have a right to let the other person know and give them an opportunity to apologize (repent). However, forgiveness is not dependent upon correction or letting someone know they offended you.

The brother does have specific remedies on times when your brother has offended you. But forgiveness is not dependent upon whether you inform your brother that he has offended you or not.



I agree we forgive...that is OUR responsibility and not conditional on the other person.

HOWEVER......I do not think it is a 'right' to go to one who has offended. The Scripture telling us to do so, is instructional on how to
correct or try to correct the 'bad air' that happens when something of that nature occurs. I think this particular passage is the key to resolving so many things if Christians would actually follow the advice given. So, I guess I am saying that it is something we SHOULD do and not just something we have the RIGHT or OPTION to do.

quote:

OK, let's set aside for a minute whether the person is a Christian or not. Sat the person insulted us, it's something they do on a regular basis.

Do we stand up for ourselves or ignore it, knowing that it will happen again, because we keep forgiving them and not correcting them.

I asked in another thread, don't we teach people how to treat us based on our reaction to their behavior?


I actually have an interesting 'thing' going on right now with an ex neighbor who is making up some pretty interesting things with very little basis for truth with regards to the relationship we had as neighbors. I tried to 'reason' with them...just made it worse. I am just praying now and asking God to stop these people...the wife in particular....as they are in a position to cause some real harm. I recognize that the spirit behind what is happening is darkness...however, at one time the wife was a believer...interestingly...and I CONSISTENTLY find that people who have turned their back on Christ are WORSE than one who has not believed...especially if they can sink their 'teeth' into someone who is a Christian.

There is only so much you can do with an unbeliever...as Paul says, live at peace AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE with all men...some people just will not let you. You really can only handle that type of thing with prayer and remember that God can 'make even our enemies to be at peace with us'.



stampinlady -> RE: Does Jesus forgive without correcting others? (9/16/2009 10:58:48 AM)

quote:

OK, let's set aside for a minute whether the person is a Christian or not. Sat the person insulted us, it's something they do on a regular basis.


Well, imo that's verbal abuse and no one has to take it. Why in the world would you hang with a person that does this? If it's a spouse then I would think that counseling would be in order and some sort of version of Matt. 18 along with tkaing it to the elders would be the thing to do.

But Jesus took verbal abuse didn't He? [&:]



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