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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/15/2009 5:45:47 PM
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huangshan
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That looks to me to be criticizing people knowingly suppressing truth rather than people who are simply mistaken.
If you actually believe the world is flat, it's reasonable to accuse you of ignorance, not psychoses or lying.
If you actually believe the world to be round but you declare it to be flat, it's reasonable to accuse you of something much harsher.
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/15/2009 11:35:22 PM
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menendez7
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Dear huangshan,
I agree that a shift from atheism to deism in “baby steps” would be an improvement. This seems to be what happened with British atheist philosopher, Antony Flew. However, he reconsidered his position not after endless philosophical speculation but after considering the properties of the physical universe and the complexity of life. I feel that books like Wright’s would be convincing only if you a priori accepted the foundational presuppositions that undergird the whole structure. If after considered examination you find these presuppositions invalid then the whole system, however elegant, is also invalid. What was the evidence in Wright’s books that jolted your faith?
_____________________________
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress. -- Joseph Joubert
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/15/2009 11:41:16 PM
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menendez7
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Dear essentalsaltes,
Thank you for the opportunity to wish you a happy birthday. The book is on its way. I look forward to an interesting exchange of ideas in the near future.
_____________________________
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress. -- Joseph Joubert
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/16/2009 1:13:02 AM
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huangshan
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I don't really like to go into it too much here, and it wasn't really any particular evidence he brought to bear. He got me started thinking really hard about free will and determinism and my mind wandered from there.
His new book doesn't really address that though.
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/16/2009 9:53:49 AM
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abraxas
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It's funny that people will use a verse from the Bible to "prove" that everyone actually "knows" what Christians believe. Sorry drmark, but thats bollocks. Naive, presumptious, bollocks.
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/16/2009 9:56:15 AM
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abraxas
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Here's a book I recommend to everyone:
"Search, Explore, and Believe what you Believe with Integrity, Whatever it May Be."
I'm not sure it's been written yet, but....
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/16/2009 11:01:06 AM
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drmark
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quote:
It's funny that people will use a verse from the Bible to "prove" that everyone actually "knows" what Christians believe.
It's sad that unbelievers come to a Christian discussion forum and expect that Believers do not know Truth in the Bible! Sorry, abraxas, but that's naive and presumptious (I have no idea what "bollocks" means).
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/16/2009 12:05:44 PM
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abraxas
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Nonbelievers know what Christians believe; the humor is in then using that belief to prove a point. "Bollocks" is easy enough to look up, if you can't infer it from the context. Really mark, there are so many minds, brought up in so many circumstances, it's laughable that a person will presume such a homogenity of minds to make a claim such as you made. Personally I don't like non-believers making similar broad-brushed accusations about theists, and for the same reason. More bollocks.
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/16/2009 12:15:19 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 243
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From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: menendez7
Dear essentalsaltes,
Thank you for the opportunity to wish you a happy birthday. The book is on its way. I look forward to an interesting exchange of ideas in the near future.
Thank you kindly!
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/16/2009 3:19:30 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Nonbelievers know what Christians believe Bollocks!! Your very statement is the mother of all oxymorons.
quote:
it's laughable that a person will presume such a homogenity of minds to make a claim such as you made. Really, abraxas, there is nothing at all "laughable" about God creating every human being in His Image. It's a pity that so many fail to appreciate this God-given privilege.
quote:
Personally I don't like non-believers making similar broad-brushed accusations about theists, and for the same reason. Nope, that's not your real reason at all. Deep down you are terrified to admit that the One who created you in His Image is due a whole lot more respect than you're giving Him. That's the crux of Romans 1:18-19!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/16/2009 8:12:31 PM
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abraxas
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Ah good, I see you've learned the meaning of 'bollocks'. 
What is so surprising that non-believers would know what Christians believe? Are there some secret beliefs apart from the ones always talked about?
And thank you for the arm-chair psychoanalysis. They never go over very well though.
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/16/2009 11:08:55 PM
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menendez7
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
I don't really like to go into it too much here, and it wasn't really any particular evidence he brought to bear. He got me started thinking really hard about free will and determinism and my mind wandered from there.
His new book doesn't really address that though.
Dear huangshan,
From your post I infer that you are referring to Robert Wright’s book, The Moral Animal. As I mentioned previously, his conclusions are only as valid as his foundational presuppositions. Some reviewers have not been very impressed by his arguments. In their own words:
The ultimate message of the book is this: Do not go looking for "moral animals", for you will not find them. You will find self-serving gene machines doing what it takes, even if it appears to be against their best interest. Though we can, if we choose to, override or manipulate the machine, the vast majority of us will not do so - we will follow the prime directive. Though we "feel" that things are moral, they really are no such thing. It's just the way we are.
This book is not scientific. This book simplifies biology. (I am myself a research biologist.) It offers a belief system, just like religion does. And for that purpose, it does a great job. But we should always remember, these ideas are only ideas - or rather, I should say, guesses. If we begin to cling to them as though they are real truths, we will become deluded
Like so many social scientists, Wright can describe what 'is' but he can never prescribe what 'ought' to be. We are left with disjointed observations and no conclusion or synthesis.
The tone of the book implies that evolutionary psychology may be used to explain anything and everything about human behavior. This is never directly stated, but the tone is unmistakable. I would rather have seen a disclaimer at the beginning of the book saying what evolutionary psychology actually is -- a useful means of analyzing human behavior, but not the ONLY means, and certainly not the only correct means.
Evolutionary psychology needs to own up to it's responsibility and say that this is all speculation instead of fact.
As Mark Twain so insightfully quipped, “There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.” I do not think that such a book, after critical examination, should be a significant jolt to anyone’s faith. (just my opinion).
_____________________________
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress. -- Joseph Joubert
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/16/2009 11:23:20 PM
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drmark
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quote:
And thank you for the arm-chair psychoanalysis. They never go over very well though. Yes, I also notice that when I'm the client. Thanks for the reminder.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/16/2009 11:28:13 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 324
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From: Terre Haute, IN
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quote:
Dear Travis (tsnody2001),
Often the simplest solutions may be the best. I was given a Doctor's Bible by the nursing staff as a parting gift. Would you know if there is any Atheist's Bible with study notes available?
Menendez, I have a small Bible that is only the New Testament. It is called The Atheist's Bible, and another one called The Darwin Bible. You can find them both at http://www.livingwaters.com . The Bible you mentioned in post #35 is also a very good Bible too. I highly recommend it.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/17/2009 2:38:05 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 2309
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quote:
ORIGINAL: menendez7
I do not think that such a book, after critical examination, should be a significant jolt to anyone’s faith. (just my opinion).
I don't mean to sound prikly but:
1) You haven't read the book.
2) That review is faulty. It fails to take into account several critical chapters.
3) What I said earlier was, "...it wasn't really any particular evidence he brought to bear. He got me started thinking really hard about free will and determinism and my mind wandered from there." The book was a catalyst.
Update: had to intentionally remove the 'c' from prikly. Odd.
< Message edited by huangshan -- 9/17/2009 2:55:37 AM >
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/17/2009 10:31:53 PM
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menendez7
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Dear huangshan,
After consulting www.freedictionary.com it seems that "pr!ckly" is the correct spelling of the term but there appears to be an automatic censoring function that doesn't allow the combination "pr!ck" to be posted (odd). And if this was the effect of my prior post then I evidently expressed my thoughts in a manner contrary to the spirit of my signature quote, at least in your eyes, and for this I apologize. I did not mean to give the impression of belittling the significance of the effect that the book had on you.
For my profession I received my training in the natural sciences, or so-called "hard" sciences that depend on facts, hypothesis and conclusions derived through the scientific method. Therefore, I regard with marked skepticism those academic areas that produce volumes of dogmatic statements based on a pathetic paucity of facts. In my personal opinion evolutionary psychology is such an area.
But I do appreciate the candidness of your posts and the spirit with which they were intended.
_____________________________
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress. -- Joseph Joubert
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/17/2009 10:40:24 PM
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drmark
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quote:
In my personal opinion evolutionary psychology is such an area. Amen! I second that emotion!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/18/2009 8:18:59 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: menendez7
I am a physician who will be relocating after 30 years of practice at my present location. My younger colleague is a declared atheist who is (not surprisingly) a militant liberal and intellectual elitist. I wish to leave him a book that will hopefully encourage him to reassess his current radical position regarding God. Do you have any recommendations regarding which book to give? Thanks.
Sounds like something by C. S. Lewis would be the appropriate choice. Or Malcolm Muggeridge. Both men came to Christ late in life (if I'm remembering correctly) and both were intellects and led very full, interesting lives that might appeal as well as challenge your colleague. And especially if he considers himself an intellect, they might speak 'his language'. A gift book is a wonderful idea but bathe it is prayer so the Holy Spirit speaks through it and uses it. Blessings.
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/18/2009 9:19:15 PM
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menendez7
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Dear LiveLoved,
Thank you for your suggestions. C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity was very helpful to me in the early days when I needed a coherent understanding of what Christianity actually was. And prayer is the sine qua non of all witnessing endeavors.
_____________________________
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress. -- Joseph Joubert
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/18/2009 11:42:17 PM
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Redjasper
Posts: 340
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The books (titles) that say "you can do this, reason with, show this...." to an atheist are written for those who are already believers. Maybe testimonies are better, unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to lead anyone to Christ but you never know when may happen. I appreciate this thread.
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/19/2009 3:46:52 PM
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menendez7
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Dear Redjasper,
Merely providing a set of books may be perceived as a somewhat impersonal way to communicate. Any belief system which has not transformed you into a better person is probably not worth sharing with others. I plan to also share my personal story with my colleague of how accepting the Christian world view has been not only subjectively fulfilling but objectively defensible. Thank you for your input.
_____________________________
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress. -- Joseph Joubert
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/22/2009 5:18:25 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 243
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
If you're still interested in buying me a birthday present, I promise in return to read it and review it publicly. I can't do so here, because it looks like the book focuses on an area of human endeavor that I am forbidden from discussing in this forum. But I will be sure that I private message you a link to my journal/blog.
I've read and reviewed the book. As a brief comment that I can put here, I can say that Flew has taken the step to deism. Deism is unassailable as a position, but he did not provide me with any convincing reason to follow him in that step.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: A book for an atheist? - 9/22/2009 5:43:22 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4622
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quote:
Deism is unassailable as a position, but he did not provide me with any convincing reason to follow him in that step. Of course not - human reason will always be inadequate to convince sinful man of God's existence - Romans 1:18-19.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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