Christmas only for Turkeys? (Full Version)

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TartanPaint -> Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 3:47:50 AM)

With the onset of August, Christmas begins to creep into our thinking more and more ([8D])! But seriously! With the west being more prone to celebrating a Christless Christmas, should real Christians celebrate it quietly without all of the wordly razzamatazz, glitter, greed and the trimmings?

It seems to me if they (the world) want to do Christmas without Christ, then we should want to do it without all stuff that just makes it a sham!

Any thoughts?

P.S. As an aside, is it wrong for Christians to teach their children about a Santa who doesn't exist, whilst the world ignore a God who does?



SonInMe1 -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 6:39:45 AM)

Legalism is such an invasive ideology.

How does having fun with santa with young kids keep them from Christ?

The world never celebrated the reason for the season. We do. Does it matter if we buy gifts and eat good food and have a tree?

Sometimes I think christians think they cannot be christian with a smile on their face. Always suffering. Always sacrificing. Fun is evil. Joy only comes after beating yourself with a whip.

Lighten up. Santa, Barney, Spongebob and the easter bunny will not send you to hell. If they seperate you from God, your faith is weak and ya need a fix. If buying your kid a gift on christmas causes you to worship the world, your faith is weak and ya need a fix.



mvic -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 7:58:40 AM)

I agree with SonInMe.

Nowhere does it say in the Bible be miserable. Otherwise, Heaven would be a sad place indeed with miserable faces playing the harp for eternity.

I'd prefer a party with bagpipes and whisky.

And whilst we're waiting down here, let's celebrate Jesus' birthday the best way we know how. But let's not forget to invite Him.



TartanPaint -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 8:03:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

Legalism is such an invasive ideology.

How does having fun with santa with young kids keep them from Christ?

The world never celebrated the reason for the season. We do. Does it matter if we buy gifts and eat good food and have a tree?

Sometimes I think christians think they cannot be christian with a smile on their face. Always suffering. Always sacrificing. Fun is evil. Joy only comes after beating yourself with a whip.

Lighten up. Santa, Barney, Spongebob and the easter bunny will not send you to hell. If they seperate you from God, your faith is weak and ya need a fix. If buying your kid a gift on christmas causes you to worship the world, your faith is weak and ya need a fix.


Maybe so, maybe no. How come Christians are happy to teach their children about a mythical character called santa, only to admit some years down the line that actually they were lying to them! Hardly Christian telling lies to your children and then compounding it year in year out!!

If you trace the history of Christmas you will soon discover that it has pagan routes, and is becoming increasingly so with each passing year.

True Christians don't need a special day of the year to celebrate the birth of the Saviour. All I am suggesting is that we are buying in more to the worlds idea of Christmas, which in reality is anti-Christian.

I prefer to keep it low key, and let the world do its own thing.

P.S. Is it it a coincidence that santa is an anagram of satan? Both seem to guise as angels of light.



TartanPaint -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 8:06:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

I agree with SonInMe.

Nowhere does it say in the Bible be miserable. Otherwise, Heaven would be a sad place indeed with miserable faces playing the harp for eternity.

I'd prefer a party with bagpipes and whisky.

And whilst we're waiting down here, let's celebrate Jesus' birthday the best way we know how. But let's not forget to invite Him.



Please read my response to soninme1



mvic -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 8:28:38 AM)

quote:

Is it it a coincidence that santa is an anagram of satan? Both seem to guise as angels of light.


Methinks you're going too far.

Santa may be an anagram in English. But it is not in French, Italian, Greek, Spanish or any other language I know of.

So your argument stumbles there. Unless of course you proclaim that satan is English. I said English - not Scottish you will note.

Back to the serious stuff.

Are you seriously suggesting that you bring up your children without Santa at Christmas? Without toys? Without a tree? And all the fun that their friends at school, regardless of religion, enjoy?

Are you saying your Christmas should be spent in church, then at home praying? Is that what you wish for your children at Christmas?

I agree the world has taken the commercialisation of this event far too far. But it doesn't mean that we Christians should compensate by being totally miserable.

Seriously now; how do you spend Christmas day?



rcjames -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 10:41:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
Maybe so, maybe no. How come Christians are happy to teach their children about a mythical character called santa, only to admit some years down the line that actually they were lying to them!


Just a comment on the "Mythical character called Santa";

When I was a child a believed in Santa Claus and enjoyed the Christmas season very much.

When I was older I no longer believed in Santa Claus, but still enjoyed the Christmas season very much.

When I gat my own family I realized that I was Santa Claus, and enjoy the Christmas season all the more.

Thanks
RC



allisonbrett -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 11:17:55 AM)

I must admit that I do tend to get very tired of all the commercialism and materialism that Christmas brings. We have a society of those with very high expectations and a sense of entitlement. There is such a sense of obligation when it comes gift giving and receiving that for many of us that cannot readily afford to do. It does seem to lose something in the translation but....

As Christians we can change all that at least where our families are concerned. We can set a different standard and truly use the season to truly celebrate Christ and his birth, the fulfillment of prophecy of the Messiah. We can show our children that giving means from the heart not just from Walmart. Its a perfect opportunity to show that all gifts needn't be gift wrapped. The real gifts are of love, time with loved one, sharing memories and creating new ones, giving to those who who need a helping hand, volunteering, sharing the love and message of Jesus. Most of these things cost little but go a long way in sharing what to many of us is the true meaning of Christmas.

As for Santa... well let's just say that he embodies love and giving. He brings joy to children around the world. His jolly elf persona reminds us that we need to guard our actions and words and to do what is right. We know he's not real unless we make him so. Personally, I wish her were real. [:)]



mvic -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 11:37:32 AM)

Give from the heart not just from Walmart.

I like that.

One Christmas someone's present to me was a goat which they gave to some poor nation somewhere.

You can imagine how excited I was at that. Wot? No batteries with this present?

I suggested in future they give a goat if they want to, but as a memory to that goat they get me a present as well.

And so they did.

It's now smiles once again and two lots of people are happy - they who got the goat and I who got the present. I love chocolates !!! (Hint).



jn1010lf -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 11:54:58 AM)

Hello TheTartanTammy

I think we should preach everywhere that Christmas is the birth of Jesus, that time when God took up residence in a human body.

As for Santa Clause? I think we should teach our kids the true meaning of Christmasn.



TartanPaint -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 1:04:16 PM)

Interesting that people not only have a problem with santa, but equally don't have a problem with telling lies to children, and then having to sustain that lying year in year out. In Jn 1: 14 it tells us that Jesus came from the Father full of grace and truth, is it not the case that we should reflect those same qualities? If so, what gives us the right to tell lies to our children, is it to please them or the world in which we live?

I do celebrate Christmas, but prefer it to be low key and not be drawn into the worlds twisted idea of Christmas.



mvic -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 1:28:02 PM)

For generations and generations children have grown up being told about Father Christmas, fathers have dressed like Santa in the night and delivered presents to their young ones, lies, as you call them, have been told by parents to their sons and daughters ... and what happened then?

Did these children grow up all bitter and twisted because they were lied to by their parents? Did they hold that lie against them and no longer trusted them? Did they assume that since Santa and the Tooth Fairy don't exist then it follows that God doesn't either?

No ... most of them grew up to be normal good citizens who in turn tell their children about Santa.

I'm really not sure whether your posts Tammy are tongue in cheek or whether you mean them.

Do you really suggest no Santa in your family, no trees, no colourful lights, no celebrations, no presents? How exactly would you describe low key?

Is it the same at Easter and New Year's Eve and Burns Night?



TartanPaint -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 1:42:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

For generations and generations children have grown up being told about Father Christmas, fathers have dressed like Santa in the night and delivered presents to their young ones, lies, as you call them, have been told by parents to their sons and daughters ... and what happened then?

Did these children grow up all bitter and twisted because they were lied to by their parents? Did they hold that lie against them and no longer trusted them? Did they assume that since Santa and the Tooth Fairy don't exist then it follows that God doesn't either?

No ... most of them grew up to be normal good citizens who in turn tell their children about Santa.

I'm really not sure whether your posts Tammy are tongue in cheek or whether you mean them.

Do you really suggest no Santa in your family, no trees, no colourful lights, no celebrations, no presents? How exactly would you describe low key?

Is it the same at Easter and New Year's Eve and Burns Night?


Who do we listen to, our Lord or the worlds lies? So, the lie continues from generation to generation and that is OK?

Jesus says the truth will set us free, does that mean that we are free to perpetuate lies about a harmless (?) old man called santa, who is easy to believe in because he makes no demands on us in relation to right and wrong. When in fact we know that Jesus is the reason for the season, yet every year He is relegated for greed, glitz and a 'give me' mentality, which sadly Christians can also be drawn into.

Surely, as Christians we are called to a life of simplicity? If so, how can we live that way and still live in a way that allows the world to dictate to us how Christmas should be celebrated.

By post is semi-tongue in cheek, and semi not!



mvic -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 1:52:35 PM)

Tammy, you keep avoiding the question - your priviledge.

Of course it's a lie. I've admitted that and every sane person knows it's a lie. But we do it as a tradition because we love our children. And for generations it has not harmed them. So it is not the sort of lie that God would send you to hell for.

Of course Christmas, like every thing else, has been commercialised. So has Easter, Mother's Day, Father's Day and Red Nose Day.

I've admitted that too. And I said that we can enjoy Christmas yet teach our children its true meaning. Have a small crib in the house maybe. Go to church most certainly. And explain as best they can understand the greatest gift of all - sending One's Son to us.

But I've also made room in my Christmas for fun.

How do you and your family have fun at Christmas and other occasions?



deborlie -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 1:59:30 PM)

TTT,

I don't know about the turkeys, but it brings out the ham in everyone of us!

What have you told your kids?

April fool! Let's pretend. Jokes. Movies. Fairy tales, .....fiction.. Parables?

The disciples questioned Jesus about Parables.
Matt. 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Please, read also vs 10, 11, 12.

Are these lies? If not, then what are they?

I think we need to define what a lie is.
Webster: A lie - A false statement purposely put forward as truth, Falsehood. (more was given)

Santa, is a lets pretend, directed to a certain group of little people. and not put forth as a truth, but the secret is to be revealed at later time, a fable with a lesson in giving and love, that whets the appetite of all ages, and continues even when the fable has long been acknowledged.

Is this truly a sin?

Now, I understand what you desire.......but are we being truthful in designating Dec 25, as THE day. That lie will be revealed eventually as well. We celebrate Christ's Mass, but we are not commanded to. To us it is important. To God, the true story comes at the resurrection.

We need to take the guilt out of a let's pretend fun, that the whole world gets involved with knowing there is a glorious story to be told, behind it.

Just my opinion,

Merry Christmas everyone! You too Tammy! May this coming one be the best one yet.

bj



mvic -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 2:04:39 PM)

quote:

Santa, is a lets pretend, directed to a certain group of little people. and not put forth as a truth, but the secret is to be revealed at later time, a fable with a lesson in giving and love, that whets the appetite of all ages, and continues even when the fable has long been acknowledged.


Good Lord! And I thought he was a jolly fat man dressed in red who gets stuck up my chimney every year.



deermousie -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 2:43:43 PM)

I, too, chafe at the commercialism that drowns out the message that Something Really Important happened in a stable 2000 years ago.

We told our kidlet that Santa Claus was a fun game we played, so she knew it wasn't real but a fun excuse in part of our gift-giving, and we really did it because the Wise Men brought gifts to Jesus so we gave gifts to others, too.

Ha! Fooled me - there was a Saint Nicholas. He was a Christian bishop in the country of Turkey in the 400s. See

http://www.meandertravel.com/biblicalanatolia/biblical_anatolia.php?details=myra&m=4&md=sc4

Today is the first time I heard about the connection with the logo of pawn shops. Huh; interesting.



TartanPaint -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 2:53:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Tammy, you keep avoiding the question - your priviledge.

Of course it's a lie. I've admitted that and every sane person knows it's a lie. But we do it as a tradition because we love our children. And for generations it has not harmed them. So it is not the sort of lie that God would send you to hell for.

Of course Christmas, like every thing else, has been commercialised. So has Easter, Mother's Day, Father's Day and Red Nose Day.

I've admitted that too. And I said that we can enjoy Christmas yet teach our children its true meaning. Have a small crib in the house maybe. Go to church most certainly. And explain as best they can understand the greatest gift of all - sending One's Son to us.

But I've also made room in my Christmas for fun.

How do you and your family have fun at Christmas and other occasions?


We have a low key Christmas, yes we swap presents but tend to keep the cost low. Yes, we share in worship together in church. Yes, we eat Christmas dinner together.

Is it so bad to question these things that can all too easily take over, and actually corrupt what it is all really about?

Let me give one example of the obsenity that Christmas has become here in the UK;

Christmas 1999/New Year 2000 - during that particular period of festivities which lasted for about 7 weeks in total, when we take into account the run up to Christmas and the period up to and including New Year (2nd Jan). During that particular 7 weeks, 36 billion pounds were spent on presents etc. On Christmas day alone, it is reckoned that 1/2 million pounds in food alone was binned, put down to waste.

I could be wrong, but in my opinion that goes against why Jesus came, what the Gospel proclaims, and is really sad when you consider how many people die each day in the world because of the lack of water to drink, food to eat and basic sanitation!

I rest my case.



TartanPaint -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 2:59:09 PM)

deborlie said
quote:

I think we need to define what a lie is.
Webster: A lie - A false statement purposely put forward as truth, Falsehood. (more was given)


It seems that the definition you offers contradicts your post, santa is a lie, he is a falsehood purposely put fwd as truth.



Nick_Drake -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 3:36:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy

With the onset of August, Christmas begins to creep into our thinking more and more ([8D])!

Didn't you read the tag on this thread? 'Don't open till Christmas'.

Even I wait till at least September to start watching my 'Christmas Vacation' (Christ approved, family safe TV version) and 'Ernest Saves Christmas' videos.



Nick_Drake -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 3:47:09 PM)

quote:

Of course it's a lie. I've admitted that and every sane person knows it's a lie.

You serious, Clark?



mvic -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 4:09:17 PM)

quote:

I could be wrong, but in my opinion that goes against why Jesus came, what the Gospel proclaims, and is really sad when you consider how many people die each day in the world because of the lack of water to drink, food to eat and basic sanitation!


Tammy, you are 100% correct. Christmas in the UK has been over commercialised for years. Come September the supermarkets are already full of Christmas puddings, cakes and the like.

I agree we've lost the meaning of Christmas in the UK - but then, this country has also lost all meaning of Christianity.

So we don't disagree there.

Where we differ is that I see no wrong in telling the little ones that Santa will bring them toys. I've accepted it's a lie. But it gives me the opportunity to dress up in red and go: Ho ho ho. Are you going to deny me that? Am I going to hell for lying?



TartanPaint -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 4:28:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

quote:

I could be wrong, but in my opinion that goes against why Jesus came, what the Gospel proclaims, and is really sad when you consider how many people die each day in the world because of the lack of water to drink, food to eat and basic sanitation!


Tammy, you are 100% correct. Christmas in the UK has been over commercialised for years. Come September the supermarkets are already full of Christmas puddings, cakes and the like.

I agree we've lost the meaning of Christmas in the UK - but then, this country has also lost all meaning of Christianity.

So we don't disagree there.

Where we differ is that I see no wrong in telling the little ones that Santa will bring them toys. I've accepted it's a lie. But it gives me the opportunity to dress up in red and go: Ho ho ho. Are you going to deny me that? Am I going to hell for lying?


It is not a question of a Christian going to hell, it is a question of what it means to walk in the light that the Lord provides. I prefer, as much as possible to walk in the light, not in the shades of dark that satan provides;

John 8:44 (New International Version)
"...for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

I am not responsible for you, or your walk, I am however duty bound like all Christians to question what many consider to be the norm!



rcjames -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 5:25:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
Let me give one example of the obsenity that Christmas has become here in the UK;

Christmas 1999/New Year 2000 - during that particular period of festivities which lasted for about 7 weeks in total, when we take into account the run up to Christmas and the period up to and including New Year (2nd Jan). During that particular 7 weeks, 36 billion pounds were spent on presents etc. On Christmas day alone, it is reckoned that 1/2 million pounds in food alone was binned, put down to waste.

I could be wrong, but in my opinion that goes against why Jesus came, what the Gospel proclaims, and is really sad when you consider how many people die each day in the world because of the lack of water to drink, food to eat and basic sanitation!

I rest my case.


Wow, and that cute guy Santa Claus that makes my little grandchildren's eyes light up so much when I tell the story of Him; is the rascal that is responsible for alll that.

Who would a thunk it.

Thanks
RC

Ho Ho Ho; and don't forget to leave me out some cookies and milk.


edited for spelling



mvic -> RE: Christmas only for Turkeys? (8/8/2009 6:02:27 PM)

quote:

It is not a question of a Christian going to hell, it is a question of what it means to walk in the light that the Lord provides. I prefer, as much as possible to walk in the light, not in the shades of dark that satan provides


To say that my dressing up like Santa is to walk in the shades of dark that satan provides is a sermon too far Tammy.

Methinks you're losing credibility on this one.

We've agreed that Christmas has been commercialised and the true message of Christmas diluted. But to blame it all on Santa is unfair.

I bet he won't be visiting you this Christmas. You've upset him.



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