RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order to go to heaven?
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[Poll]
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Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order to go to heaven?
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| Maybe/Not Sure |
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Total Votes : 144
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(last vote on : 11/15/2009 2:43:45 PM)
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/2/2009 6:18:54 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Because Jesus said believe and be baptized and you will be saved.
Baptism is faith's response that appropriates God's grace.
Baptism is when we are made alive. Colossians 2:11-12
Baptism is when our sins are forgiven! Acts 2:38
Baptism is when we are born again. John 3:5
Baptism even before the Catholic church started was always associated with Salvation because that is when our sins are washed away.
No one can be saved unless their sins are forgiven.
1) I told you before that plastering a list of verses will simply have no effect on me. I consider that preaching and I am not interested in that type of discussion.
2) I think I have asked a couple of difficult questions that you have ignored.
3) Please don't respond to my posts by plastering CoC proof texts. Please don't.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 11/2/2009 6:37:14 AM >
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/2/2009 7:15:57 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
It is also quite possible that those conditions were meant to be applied to first century Jews who were guilty of the criminal bloodguilt of Jesus' crucifixion. Yes, it is possible, I suppose. I just don't know how one would determine that short of coming to the text with a preconceived notion that if they don't agree with what the text says they can just say it doesn't apply to us today.
quote:
In both chapter 2 and 3, Peter indicts his audience(s) of the criminal act of Jesus' death. The call to repentance is yet another invitation extending from John the Baptist's sermons prior to Jesus' introduction to Israel. See 3:22-25. I'm not seeing how Acts 3:22-25 is germain to our discussion.
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I believe the blood guiltiness of the first century Jews is key to the wording of verse 38. Indeed. So do I.
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In chapter 3, baptism isn't mentioned. Right.
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A lot of energy has been expended discussion the meaning of "eis." Prepositions are notoriously flexible and occasionally vague. Its meaning is so flexible that there are other examples in scripture for everyone's view Agreed. However, the preponderance of evidence (both in the context and in the lexicons) points to the meaning of purpose or goal. Which is one of the things that made me change my view on the meaning and purpose of baptism.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/2/2009 10:54:50 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Look at it this way. "Baptism for the forgiveness of sin" is mentioned in the gospels and in Acts 2:38. If the term "for the forgiveness of sins" refers to the act of being saved from via baptism in Acts, doesn't it mean the same thing in the gospels? But there is the idea that it didn't apply to the thief on the cross because it was prior to Jesus death and resurrection. I see an inconsistency.
John's baptism conferred forgiveness but not the Holy Spirit. It was a call for the Jews to come back to God's covenant.
While Jesus walked the earth he had authority to forgive anyone at anytime. He often did so in front of people to show that He was God in the flesh.
Besides no one knows if the thief was baptized or not. He most certainly could have been baptized by John before his execution however no one can make that claim dogmatically. I am only saying it is a possibility.
People all the time say emphatically that the thief was not baptized as proof that baptism is not necessary however the text does not imply nor say that the thief was not baptized.
That is reading something into the text that is not there.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/2/2009 10:58:03 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
1) I told you before that plastering a list of verses will simply have no effect on me. I consider that preaching and I am not interested in that type of discussion.
Scriptures are not just for you. Also I was answering a question. If I cannot use scripture to answer a question on a biblical website then when can I use them?
quote:
2) I think I have asked a couple of difficult questions that you have ignored.
Sorry I have been traveling a lot and its been hard to keep up with which ones. I am not ignoring you. I do not ignore people. Give me a reference and I will answer every single question.
quote:
3) Please don't respond to my posts by plastering CoC proof texts. Please don't.
This request is ridiculous. My answers come from the scriptures.
Would you rather me use the Koran? 
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/2/2009 4:58:49 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Scriptures are not just for you. Also I was answering a question.
You didn't answer the question I asked.
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If I cannot use scripture to answer a question on a biblical website then when can I use them?
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This request is ridiculous. My answers come from the scriptures.
Would you rather me use the Koran?
Take it or leave it. I cannot interact with proof texts. I don't intend to do so. It doesn't tell me you understand context. It tells me you think you do. It's like the guy who sticks his fingers in his ears repeating the same words over and over. If you think that's appropriate, use them on someone else.
In any event, I distinctly remember informing of how I intend to dialogue in post #103 of the thread, "Do you understand that salvation is by grace?" You should not be surprised.
quote:
Give me a reference and I will answer every single question.
You're overdue on giving me a substantive answer to my post #904.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 11/2/2009 5:38:14 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/2/2009 6:25:49 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Noah and his family were saved from God's wrath through the water just like we are today!
What "wrath" of God is Peter expressing toward his readers that water baptism saves from? Context.
The wrath of God is wrath against sin. Our iniquities that separate us from Him.
I am scared to use scripture because I am afraid you will freak out from me using the bible.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/2/2009 8:02:59 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Noah and his family were saved from God's wrath through the water just like we are today!
What "wrath" of God is Peter expressing toward his readers that water baptism saves from? Context.
The wrath of God is wrath against sin. Our iniquities that separate us from Him.
I am scared to use scripture because I am afraid you will freak out from me using the bible.
Where in 1 Peter 3 do you find wrath for sin that baptism saves the readers from?
Being saved from God's wrath is implied within the context of baptism.
If you die and your sins are not forgiven and you do not have the Holy Spirit you will be destroyed.
If you die and your sins are forgiven you will live eternally with God.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/2/2009 8:43:16 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
It is also quite possible that those conditions were meant to be applied to first century Jews who were guilty of the criminal bloodguilt of Jesus' crucifixion.
Yes, it is possible, I suppose. I just don't know how one would determine that short of coming to the text with a preconceived notion that if they don't agree with what the text says they can just say it doesn't apply to us today.
There is a certain difficulty in inductive reasoning that we cannot avoid. If the context of Acts 2:38 were that easy, there would be virtually no disagreement.
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
quote:
I'm not seeing how Acts 3:22-25 is germain to our discussion.
I could probably have pointed out that verse 3:19 is nearby. I'll not quote it. It looks surprisingly like 2:38.
quote:
Agreed. However, the preponderance of evidence (both in the context and in the lexicons) points to the meaning of purpose or goal. Which is one of the things that made me change my view on the meaning and purpose of baptism.
The goal being what? It's a preposition. Prepositions in Greek have objects. All prepositions have an object, I think. "Eis" is used some 1500 times in the NT, as I remember reading from my one of my sources. Most of the time, it is used in a concrete locational sense, equivalent to our English word "into." Secondarily, it translates to the word "to." (I'm no expert but I believe I am right.) With relationship to baptism, it is used abstractly, something like 6-8 times total.
John Stott has a little book entitled Baptism and Fulness on the topic of the Holy Spirit. Let me quote from pages 40-41:
QUOTE
"Let me enlarge on my point in this way. In every kind of baptis (of water, blod,fire , Spirit, etc.) there are four parts. To begin with, there are the subject and the object, namely the baptizer and the baptized. Thirdly, there is the element with or in (en) which, and fourthly, there is the purpose for (eis) which, the baptism takes place. Take, as an example,thecrossing of the Red Sea, which the apostle Paul describes as a kind of baptism (1 Cor. 10:1,2). Presumably, God himself was the baptizer. Certainly, the escaping Israelites were the baptized. The element in which the baptism was administered was water or spray...while its purpose is indicated in the expression 'baptized into Moses., that is, into the relationship with him as their God-apppointed leader.
In John's baptism, John the Baptist was the subject while the objects were the people of 'Jerusalem and all Judea and all the regionabout the Jordan' (Mt.3:5). The baptism took place in (en) the waters of the River Jordan and was for or unto (eis) repentance (Mt. 3:11) and therefore the remission of sins(Mk. 1:4; Lk 3:3).UNQUOTE
Great divide,
Of the approx. 1500 times that "eis" is used in the NT, there are only two which might mean that it is for the purpose of getting forgiven of sins. I'm not saying it cannot be but I am saying that it doesn't have to be. If it is intended for the purpose of forgivenss of sins, I believe it refers to repentance, not baptism; or at the least specifically for Jews guilty of bloodguilt.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/2/2009 8:46:30 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Being saved from God's wrath is implied within the context of baptism.
If you die and your sins are not forgiven and you do not have the Holy Spirit you will be destroyed.
If you die and your sins are forgiven you will live eternally with God.
Prove that it is implied. I say it is not implied.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/2/2009 10:35:04 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Being saved from God's wrath is implied within the context of baptism.
If you die and your sins are not forgiven and you do not have the Holy Spirit you will be destroyed.
If you die and your sins are forgiven you will live eternally with God.
Prove that it is implied. I say it is not implied.
Prove that it is not implied! I say it is implied.
Baptism washes away sins.
Baptism puts you in Christ.
Baptism is when you come into contact with Jesus' blood.
Baptism is when Jesus' blood cleanses you.
If you are not cleansed with Jesus' blood that washes away sins then you are still dead in your sins and God's wrath remains.
I would love to share scripture to back this up but you won't allow me to use the bible.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/3/2009 12:22:37 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
The goal being what? It would mean that the goal of baptism is the forgiveness of sins.
quote:
It's a preposition. Prepositions in Greek have objects. All prepositions have an object, I think. "Eis" is used some 1500 times in the NT, as I remember reading from my one of my sources. Most of the time, it is used in a concrete locational sense, equivalent to our English word "into." You are correct. One of the most common meanings is "moving from one physical place to another" (88 lines in the lexicon*). The other common meaning is "goal or purpose" (127 lines -- one full page) in the lexicon*. By contrast only five lines are devoted to the alleged causal use of eis. And only 16 lines to explain that it sometimes means "with respect to" or "with reference to."
I do understand, though the simply counting lines in a lexicon does not decide the meaning of a word in a particular verse. That's why I said the preponderance of evidence leans toward the meaning of "goal or purpose."
*Arndt, William F., and F. Wilbur Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 4th ed. Chicago: University of Chicago Pres, 1952.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/3/2009 7:01:21 AM
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GrahamCracker
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GD,
I'll get back to you later. I am getting off to work.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/3/2009 10:10:06 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Baptism washes away sins.
Baptism puts you in Christ.
Baptism is when you come into contact with Jesus' blood.
Baptism is when Jesus' blood cleanses you.
If you are not cleansed with Jesus' blood that washes away sins then you are still dead in your sins and God's wrath remains.
I would love to share scripture to back this up but you won't allow me to use the bible.
This, my friend, is lip service to context only. Isn't it possible that it says it in other places but does not say it in 1 Peter 3:21.
Lip service? Thank you for being so kind.
Anything is possible with God.
However Peter says baptism NOW saves you!
In Acts 2 Peter tells the Jews to saves themselves from their corrupt generation.
Just like we today need to save ourselves from our corrupt generation by repenting and not being a part of the world. Not living by the desires of the flesh.
Paul says that at baptism we are raised to a new life.
Paul says that at baptism we are made alive.
Paul says that at baptism we are put into Christ.
Luke records Paul's conversion were he is ordered to be baptized washing away his sins calling on His name.
Now you throw fits when I "don't answer your question" then when I do you say it's lip service or whatever.
You haven't answered two of mine.
Can you be saved without your sins being forgiven and having the Holy Spirit?
And don't we have to obey be saved and have the Spirit?
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/3/2009 4:27:39 PM
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GrahamCracker
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jjbird,
I'm not upset with you in the least. Honest, injun. It's just that I can get the same canned answers from any CoC, anywhere.
quote:
Can you be saved without your sins being forgiven and having the Holy Spirit?
No. But what sins are we talking about?
quote:
And don't we have to obey be saved and have the Spirit?
Obey what?
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 11/3/2009 5:59:54 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/4/2009 5:01:34 PM
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GrahamCracker
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GD,
I want to post a couple of links articulating both our views. I actually found one yesterday that is quite good, considering that I don't agree with the author's conclusion and reasoning. However, I had to baby sit my grandaughter yesterday and didn't want to post a half thought out comment.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/4/2009 5:57:15 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
GD,
I want to post a couple of links articulating both our views. I actually found one yesterday that is quite good, considering that I don't agree with the author's conclusion and reasoning. However, I had to baby sit my grandaughter yesterday and didn't want to post a half thought out comment.
Half thought! Like me!
I will get to your last post tomorrow morning!
Hope all is well bro
peace
JJ
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/5/2009 7:51:03 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
jjbird,
I'm not upset with you in the least. Honest, injun. It's just that I can get the same canned answers from any CoC, anywhere.
quote:
Can you be saved without your sins being forgiven and having the Holy Spirit?
No. But what sins are we talking about?
Sin in general. Past sins, future sins.
quote:
And don't we have to obey be saved and have the Spirit?
Obey what?
Jesus teachings on salvation.
Concerning being saved these are some specifics that Jesus explicitly spoke of
Belief
Repentance
Baptism
Perseverance
Of course there are others he spoke of concerning being his disciple as well but these are the ones Jesus said specifically are conditions for salvation.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/5/2009 1:36:20 PM
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greatdivide46
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I came across an article, from which the following quote is taken:
"In the New Testament, conversion involves five integrally related components or aspects, all of which took place at the same time, usually on the same day. These five components are repentance, faith, and confession by the individual, regeneration, or the giving of the Holy Spirit by God, and baptism by representatives of the Christian community." -- Robert H. Stein, Professor of New Testament Interpretation, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. (At least at the time of the writing of the article that was his position.)
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/5/2009 4:25:35 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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quote:
quote:
No. But what sins are we talking about?
Sin in general. Past sins, future sins.
I disagree.
quote:
quote:
Obey what?
Jesus teachings on salvation.
Concerning being saved these are some specifics that Jesus explicitly spoke of
Belief
Repentance
Baptism
Perseverance
Of course there are others he spoke of concerning being his disciple as well but these are the ones Jesus said specifically are conditions for salvation.
Your post only serves to state your view. The differences in your view and mine involve a mixture of different definitions, preconditions for salvation and various interpretations. Regarding different interpretations, posting verse references do nothing to my position if I already have an opinion concerning what they mean. And having a different opinion does not mean that I disagree with scripture.
quote:
I came across an article, from which the following quote is taken:
"In the New Testament, conversion involves five integrally related components or aspects, all of which took place at the same time, usually on the same day. These five components are repentance, faith, and confession by the individual, regeneration, or the giving of the Holy Spirit by God, and baptism by representatives of the Christian community." -- Robert H. Stein, Professor of New Testament Interpretation, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. (At least at the time of the writing of the article that was his position.)
GD,
I would be interested in knowing what the context of the speaker/writer was indicating.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/5/2009 5:33:44 PM
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jjbird
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ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
No. But what sins are we talking about?
quote:
Sin in general. Past sins, future sins.
quote:
I disagree.
How so? It would help a bit if you would elaborate just a little.
quote:
Obey what?
quote:
Jesus teachings on salvation.
Concerning being saved these are some specifics that Jesus explicitly spoke of
Belief
Repentance
Baptism
Perseverance
Of course there are others he spoke of concerning being his disciple as well but these are the ones Jesus said specifically are conditions for salvation.
quote:
Your post only serves to state your view. The differences in your view and mine involve a mixture of different definitions, preconditions for salvation and various interpretations. Regarding different interpretations, posting verse references do nothing to my position if I already have an opinion concerning what they mean. And having a different opinion does not mean that I disagree with scripture.
Now we got to find out who is reading something into the text and who is not. Who is paying attention to context and who is not?
Both of us can't be right if there is a disagreement.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/5/2009 5:39:12 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
GD,
I would be interested in knowing what the context of the speaker/writer was indicating.
He said it was his thesis statement for the article, which was entitled Baptism and Becoming a Christian in the New Testament.
He also stated at the beginning of the article that "it seems clear by the varied groupings of these aspects in the New Testament that the experience of conversion was understood to involve all five components which normally occurred at the same time. As a result, when one or more of these aspects is missing from a specific passage or conversion account, we should presume that although not mentioned, they are assumed." -- Robert H. Stein, "Baptism and Becoming a Christian in the New Testament" in Southern Baptist Journal of Theology. Spring 1998, page 6.
< Message edited by greatdivide46 -- 11/5/2009 5:45:26 PM >
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/5/2009 5:54:36 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
GD,
I would be interested in knowing what the context of the speaker/writer was indicating.
He said it was his thesis statement for the article, which was entitled Baptism and Becoming a Christian in the New Testament.
He also stated at the beginning of the article that "it seems clear by the varied groupings of these aspects in the New Testament that the experience of conversion was understood to involve all five components which normally occurred at the same time. As a result, when one or more of these aspects is missing from a specific passage or conversion account, we should presume that although not mentioned, they are assumed." -- Robert H. Stein, "Baptism and Becoming a Christian in the New Testament" in Southern Baptist Journal of Theology. Spring 1998, page 6.
Baptist's used to believe baptism was a part of the salvation process but that has been thrown out the window years ago.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 11/5/2009 10:38:55 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
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Years ago?? How many years ago? This article was written 10 years ago.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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