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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/19/2009 1:44:50 AM
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JB25
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Ezra,
I realize it may be a bit off topic - but sticking to the KJV runs you right into IJn5:7 - a clearly spurious passage (even with respect to whatever uncials you might reference for theos in IT3:16) so that that does not bode well as credible source.
You don't need to follow up since it is off topic but that is my 2 cents.
Likewise, I suspect God being manifest in the flesh could mean a lot of things - and not necessarily answer the question that is posed for this thread. In other words, I am uncertain the reading here matters unless we were to understand clearly Paul's intent in writing it - to assume a post Nicean Christology is a stretch.
JB
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/19/2009 1:58:07 AM
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rawr.ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
So why did the critics chose "which" or "who"? Because they elevated to the position of idols two corrupt manuscripts -- Aleph and B, and Aleph reads "who".
Goodness.
While it may have been a poor translation, I don't know that it's fair to say they were idolatrous.
_____________________________
rawr.ben
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/19/2009 2:02:46 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
Likewise, I suspect God being manifest in the flesh could mean a lot of things - and not necessarily answer the question that is posed for this thread. In other words, I am uncertain the reading here matters unless we were to understand clearly Paul's intent in writing it - to assume a post Nicean Christology is a stretch.
Jennie:
God being manifested in the flesh can only mean one thing -- that the Lord God Almighty took upon Himself a human body and functioned as a man. It cannot "mean a lot of things" unless one wants to simply play games with words.
You seem to be forgetting that 1 Tim 3:16 is one out of scores of verses in both the Old and New Testaments which establish the deity and sinless humanity of Christ and that Jesus remains God in the flesh ever since His conception. And Christians did not have to wait for some council to establish this truth. It was believed both before and after the resurrection of Christ by those who put their faith in the Savior.
As to your comment on 1 Jn 5:7, let's just say that the evidence is just as strong for that verse as for some of the spurious readings found in the critical texts (sometimes based on the testimony of just one MSS). It all depends on whether you are a Unitarian or not. Perhops you might want to disclose what your belief is in this regard.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/19/2009 2:11:25 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
So why did the critics chose "which" or "who"? Because they elevated to the position of idols two corrupt manuscripts -- Aleph and B, and Aleph reads "who".
Goodness.
While it may have been a poor translation, I don't know that it's fair to say they were idolatrous.
When a "scholar" idolizes a particular manuscript to the exclusion of hundreds or thousands which do not agree with it, then that is idolatry.
Perhaps you should do a little research on Tischendorf for example. "It has been ascertained that his discovery of codex Aleph caused his 8th edition (1865-72) to differe from his 7th in no less than 3505 places -- "to the scandal of the science of Comparative Crticism, as well as to his own grave discredit for discenrment and consistency". (Burgon)
Little children, keep yourselves from idols.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/19/2009 10:40:30 AM
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awaken
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Again I believe that Jesus is the son of God..I believe the word become flesh is Jesus...I was taught trinity. But in light of questions brought up to me recently I am studing this out some more. You can read a lot of writing about scriptures and the error of them....
Bruce Metzger writes:
[“He who”] is supported by the earliest and best uncials…no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports theos; all ancient versions presuppose hos or ho [“he who” or “he”]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading theos. The reading theos arose either (a) accidentally, or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs [the six verbs that follow in the verse], or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision [i.e., to produce a verse that more clearly supports the Trinitarian position].”
“By common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory” (NASB). This section of Scripture beautifully portrays an overview of Christ’s life and accomplishments. It all fits with what we know of the man, Jesus Christ. If Jesus were God, this section of Scripture would have been the perfect place to say so. We should expect to see some phrases like, “God incarnate,” “God and Man united,” “very God and very man,” etc. But nothing like that occurs.
I still believe that Jesus the son of God remained in the flesh..a changed body, because after his resurrection he said he was flesh and bones.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/19/2009 3:26:21 PM
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JB25
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quote:
God being manifested in the flesh can only mean one thing -- that the Lord God Almighty took upon Himself a human body and functioned as a man.
Why?
Again, you are reading a post-Nicean christology into this -
The reality is that Hebraic metaphor conveys far greater flexibility in meaning than Western linguistics - it is much more likely that it simply meant that God was manifesting Himself through Jesus (cf. Emmanuel, Col 1:9 - and ultimately how He is to manifest through the Body of Christ, etc.).
re: quote:
As to your comment on 1 Jn 5:7, let's just say that the evidence is just as strong for that verse
Ezra, with all due respect, if you in any way take this comment seriously, I would not try to discuss anything rational with you - it seems you are wed to an ideological position that you were spoon-fed in your young years rather than genuinely interested develping your thinking on a the basis of sound epistomology.
I have run into too many religious people who are emotionally attached to their ideology and will not budge under ANY circumstances because that is what they want to believe. Typically they manifest a lot of emotion and anger - with very short circuits. Indeed, I have seen that in some of your previous posts towards other posters. This is, of course, your choice to do - and my choice not to be drawn into pointless writing.
I wish you the best in your relationship with Jesus Christ.
JB
< Message edited by JennieB25 -- 2/19/2009 3:34:53 PM >
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/1/2009 5:43:17 PM
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George27
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quote:
I still believe that Jesus the son of God remained in the flesh.. a changed body, because after his resurrection he said he was flesh and bones.
AWAKEN:
Yes, and He did not have any blood in Him, because He shed it all when the guard pierced His side and blood and water ran out.
Jesus also remained and is still inhibits a fleshly body as a man after His ascension into heaven. First Timothy, verses 5 & 6 states: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself to be a ranson for all..." Here mentions He is still a man.
Jesus must remain in His human body as a man in order to redeem fallen man. The very reason God had to come to earth as a human is because only a perfect human as Adam was in the beginning, (before sin) could redeem fallen man. Therefore, only a perfect man could redeem fallen man.
There were no other perfect beings in the universe, much less a perfect human being, after Adam fell into sin. God was the only Perfect Being who could qualify to redeem man from his dilemma of death hell and the grave. However, God could not come to earth in His deified nature. God told Moses that if anyone looked upon Him, they would die. Still, God had devised a way to do it without violating any of His laws that He set for man to abide by. God came to earth direct from heaven in the form of a man named Jesus.
Jesus, (God in the flesh) is the only human being ever to come to earth directly from heaven and not from the dust of the ground as you and I and everybody else has done from day one.
George
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/2/2009 6:32:07 PM
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JB25
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quote:
Therefore, only a perfect man could redeem fallen man.
Hi George,
I was a little puzzled by this comment - because the hypostatic union does not envision a man - but God in a human nature. There is a world (an eternity?) of difference.
JB
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/3/2009 9:55:41 AM
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laura...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JennieB25
quote:
Therefore, only a perfect man could redeem fallen man.
Hi George,
I was a little puzzled by this comment - because the hypostatic union does not envision a man - but God in a human nature. There is a world (an eternity?) of difference.
JB
Jesus Christ is 100% God and 100% Man. That is the hypostatic union. I will argue against anyone who claims that Jesus was not fully God, fully divine. I will also argue against anyone who claims that Jesus was not fully man, fully human.
And, George is correct, Jesus was a perfect man. He had to be in order to die for our sins. He could not be our sacrifice if he had to sacrifice for his own sin.
Hebrews 2: 14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. 17For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Hebrews 4:14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens,Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Hebrews 7: 23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. 26Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/3/2009 5:07:21 PM
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JB25
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Hi Laura,
I think these Heb 2 texts are excellent and direct me to my point.
v17 "made in every way as we are" - would necessitate that he had a human consciousness/person (which is what "a man" is (IT2:5, etc.) - that is who we are a human soul (the "me" of who we are).
The question then is - whom do we see and with whom do we relate when we get to heaven (or the new earth as the case is) - the gloried human person of Jesus - or God the Son who has simply returned to heaven - or do we see and relate with (according to what you are telling me above) BOTH of them - along with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit?
Thanks for your help,
JB
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/3/2009 5:16:18 PM
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laura...
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quote:
The question then is - whom do we see and with whom do we relate when we get to heaven (or the new earth as the case is) - the gloried human person of Jesus - or God the Son who has simply returned to heaven - or do we see and relate with (according to what you are telling me above) BOTH of them - along with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit?
We will relate with Jesus Christ as He is. He is God, He is Man. Everyone who related with Jesus when he walked this earth related to him as he is...God/Man.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/3/2009 10:33:12 PM
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JB25
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Hi Laura,
I think you inadvertantly missed my question - are we going to relate to the man Christ Jesus (IT2:5) - or, we going to relate to God the Son - or, are we going to relate to the human person AND the divine person - both of them? Who is the person/consciousness/soul that we are going to relate to?
In other words, who is the "He" that you referred to above - the man or God (or did the man and the God kind of scrunch together and become neither).
Thanks,
JB
< Message edited by JennieB25 -- 3/3/2009 11:22:29 PM >
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/3/2009 11:48:55 PM
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laura...
Posts: 3281
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From: NE Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JennieB25
Hi Laura,
I think you inadvertantly missed my question - are we going to relate to the man Christ Jesus (IT2:5) - or, we going to relate to God the Son - or, are we going to relate to the human person AND the divine person - both of them? Who is the person/consciousness/soul that we are going to relate to?
In other words, who is the "He" that you referred to above - the man or God (or did the man and the God kind of scrunch together and become neither).
Thanks,
JB
I didn't miss your question. The man Christ Jesus and God Christ Jesus are one and the same. There is no "both" or "either/or". Jesus is the God Man. He is fully 100% Man. He is fully 100% God. Jesus will always, forever, eternally be so.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/4/2009 12:33:03 AM
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JB25
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quote:
He is fully 100% Man. He is fully 100% God
Hi Laura,
Ok - maybe you are missing the import of my question.
100% Man = a human person/personality/ego/consciousness (just like you and I have)
100% God = a divine person/personality/ego/consciousness (just like God has)
A human person plus a divine person - two persons - right??? To be 100% human one must have a human person - to be 100% God, one must have a divine person/consciousness - two entities. Based on this algorithm, we should be speaking of "They" not "He"
Again - WHO is the "He" - did the "He" become at birth - or did the "He" eternally exist? If you say the "He" eternally existed - where is the man "He" that came into existence at birth - the same way you and I do.
Thanks for your input,
JB
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/4/2009 9:54:13 AM
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laura...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JB25
quote:
He is fully 100% Man. He is fully 100% God
Hi Laura,
Ok - maybe you are missing the import of my question.
100% Man = a human person/personality/ego/consciousness (just like you and I have)
100% God = a divine person/personality/ego/consciousness (just like God has)
A human person plus a divine person - two persons - right??? To be 100% human one must have a human person - to be 100% God, one must have a divine person/consciousness - two entities. Based on this algorithm, we should be speaking of "They" not "He"
Again - WHO is the "He" - did the "He" become at birth - or did the "He" eternally exist? If you say the "He" eternally existed - where is the man "He" that came into existence at birth - the same way you and I do.
Thanks for your input,
JB
Again, I am not missing your question or the import of your question. Your question is based on a flawed premise. Jesus is 100% Man and 100% God and yet he is not 2 but 1 being, 1 personality. That is the hypostatic union.
quote:
Hypostatic union (from the Greek: ὑπόστασις, "hypostasis," translated reality or person) is a technical term in Christian theology employed in mainstream Christology to describe the presence of both human and divine natures in Jesus Christ. It became official at the Council of Chalcedon, which stated that the two natures (divine and human) are united in the one person (existence or reality, "hypostasis") of Christ.
We won't relate to Jesus as either man or God. We will relate to Jesus as he is -- both.
He, Jesus, eternally existed as God and as the Son of God. Jesus became Son of Man, a man, at the time of his incarnation.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/4/2009 3:04:43 PM
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JB25
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OK - I trust you are not missing anything - but somehow my question is not being answered.
You state that He (a singular ego) is ONE personality - who is the ONE personality (person) - the man that was born or God the Son?
Thanks,
JB
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/4/2009 3:09:33 PM
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laura...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JB25
OK - I trust you are not missing anything - but somehow my question is not being answered.
You state that He (a singular ego) is ONE personality - who is the ONE personality (person) - the man that was born or God the Son?
Thanks,
JB
The ONE personality (person) is BOTH. God the Son, Jesus Christ, became a man yet remains God the Son. He is Immanuel, God with us. That is the mystery of the incarnation.
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/4/2009 9:55:42 PM
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JB25
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Hi Laura,
Thanks for your patience -
I must admit that my understanding of my understanding of the Hypostatic Union is different than that - that the Hypostatic union denies the human person/personality of Christ - since to admit the existence of the human person of Christ along with God the Son - would mean there were two persons - and, for whatever reason, they were not comfortable with that.
You brought up another oddity - how can Jesus - as the son - whether man or God - be called "everlasting Father" - wouldn't that refer to God the Father??
Thanks for your patience,
JB
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/4/2009 11:00:29 PM
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laura...
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quote:
You brought up another oddity - how can Jesus - as the son - whether man or God - be called "everlasting Father" - wouldn't that refer to God the Father??
Yes. Thus we enter into the mystery of the Trinity.
quote:
John 14:8-10 (New International Version)
8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/5/2009 12:51:59 AM
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JB25
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Hi Laura,
I seem to see a difference here...
In the Jn passage Jesus is claiming that He is perfectly manifesting the character of Father (cf. Heb 1:2 I think) - in the Isaiah passage you are suggesting that He IS the Father.
Also, I don't find the trinity very mysterious - one essence - three persons - seems pretty straightforward to me.
JB
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/5/2009 5:34:10 AM
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tenderandgentleheart
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Yes Jesus was God in the flesh as John 1:14 tells us
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Also in John 8:19 Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."
Then Jesus said in John 10:30 I and My Father are one."
Hope this helps love Jenny
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/5/2009 9:21:30 AM
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laura...
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quote:
in the Isaiah passage you are suggesting that He IS the Father.
I'm not the one suggesting it...Isaiah is saying it.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/5/2009 2:51:38 PM
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JB25
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Hi Laura,
Good point! However, since we know that Jesus is NOT the God Father, I am led to believe there is a greater meaning in Isaiah's statement. I am aware that Eastern and Hebraic writing is especially rich in metaphor, poetic language as well as linguistics that we rarely use, e.g. calling judges, kings, powerful men, etc., "elohim" (cf Jn 10:40 I think we Jesus Himself references this).
I am led to wonder in what sense Isaiah saw the Messiah as the everlasting Father? I am suspecting it has nothing to do with His ontology but more to His position in relation to the world or at least the Kingdom. I would suspect if we stayed alert to the OT we would finds clues - prob even in the book of Isaiah about the range of uses of this term.
If you happen to run accross these uses, I would be grateful to know.
Thanks,
JB
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/5/2009 3:02:58 PM
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laura...
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From: NE Ohio
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quote:
However, since we know that Jesus is NOT the God Father,
No. We don't know that. While Jesus is God the Son, and God the Son is a different person in the Trinity than God the Father they are still ONE God. Jesus did say, "I and the Father are One", "Who ever sees me has seen the Father" and "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also."
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 3/5/2009 6:19:36 PM
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JB25
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hmmm.. I would struggle with the equations you are making.
Jesus is a person - the Father is a person - Jesus maybe God in whatever sense but He, the person, is NOT the Father (since He the person prayed to the Father AND had a will that was, in fact, contrary to the Father (ever had that...  ). Equating their personness with the "body" of God is, well, for me not acceptable. That would be like saying you are your husband because you both have a human body (I understand that it is a different body).
Perhaps exegetically we can begin to unwrap this when we look at what Jesus actually meant in Jn 10:30 - the issue, of course, is, what is the sense of "one" that Jesus was referring to. Jesus makes this sense very clear in Jn 17 ( a couple of times) and His prayer is that we would be "one" in the same way the He and the Father are one. I know this passage is badly mutilated by Modalists - but know it means a conformance of will/orientation based on Jesus prayer - and has nothing to do with ontology (being or even personess) whatsoever.
Blessings,
JB
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