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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/12/2009 12:25:23 PM
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awaken
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Thomas, upon being confronted by the living Christ, instantly believed in the resurrection, that God had raised the Jesus from the dead, and, given the standard use of “God” in the culture as one with God’s authority, it certainly makes sense that Thomas would proclaim, “My Lord and my God.”
MrFribbles, You are the one that mentioned the caps and lower caps...I was just showing you that in the KJV spirit is in caps.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/12/2009 1:16:48 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Thomas, upon being confronted by the living Christ, instantly believed in the resurrection, that God had raised the Jesus from the dead, and, given the standard use of “God” in the culture as one with God’s authority, it certainly makes sense that Thomas would proclaim, “My Lord and my God.”
Your basing your interpretation of that verse on a very, very limited understanding of theos. Do a word study and see how often it is used to refer to someone who isn't divine. A vast, vast majority of the time, it is used to refer to deity. Not always the true deity (it can refer to false gods), but deity none-the-less. You are forcing your beliefs onto Scripture, instead of letting the text of Scripture force its way upon your beliefs.
quote:
MrFribbles, You are the one that mentioned the caps and lower caps...I was just showing you that in the KJV spirit is in caps.
I was pointing out the commonly understood difference between spirit and Spirit in Christian discussion. Spirit, with a capital S, refers to the 3rd person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit. It is almost always preceded by the definite article, "the". Spirit, with a lower-case s, refers to a number of things. When speaking of God, it refers to the fact that He is not a physical being, except the 2nd person, Jesus, who has a physical body.
I was not referring in any way to capitalization in certain English translations, but since you brought it up, I would point out that many more recent translations do not capitalize that instance of spirit, such as the ESV.
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"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/16/2009 12:19:53 AM
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Aner
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Thomas, upon being confronted by the living Christ, instantly believed in the resurrection, that God had raised the Jesus from the dead, and, given the standard use of “God” in the culture as one with God’s authority, it certainly makes sense that Thomas would proclaim, “My Lord and my God.”
Your basing your interpretation of that verse on a very, very limited understanding of theos. Do a word study and see how often it is used to refer to someone who isn't divine. A vast, vast majority of the time, it is used to refer to deity. Not always the true deity (it can refer to false gods), but deity none-the-less. You are forcing your beliefs onto Scripture, instead of letting the text of Scripture force its way upon your beliefs.
Mr. F -
I fear to tread here since there has been much discussion and I have only read the last couple pages so please forgive me.
I do believe that Awaken is correct. The number of times a term is used does not dictate the the nature of its usage in any passage. The fact that theos is used to refer to one in a position of authority is well-known both in sacred scripture as well as common writing. Even if the term was NEVER used like this in scripture (though it is even in the book of John (which, by the way, might be a clue???) - John 10:34, “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” that would still not render a standard meaning inappropriate. However, in light of the common usage, the specific usage in John, with all due respect, I would suggest that you are reading your theology into Thomas' words.
Sincerely,
Aner
_____________________________
I seek my integrity over my ideology.
Suspension of belief is essential for creation of truth - and genuine submission to Jesus Christ.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/16/2009 12:31:49 AM
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Aner
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quote:
So, to answer your question, what was inside Mary was entirely human, conceived in a human woman, but also entirely God, conceived by God the Holy Spirit. The eternal nature of God the Son became a being with a human body, and remains a being with a human body.
Mr. F, Awaken
Again, I fear to respond - but the key issue is embedded in the above statement made by Mr. F a few posts back.
Scripture plainly teaches that Jesus is a man necessarily exactly the same as Adam (ICor15:21) (we all know the multitude of other texts so I won't list them other than ITim 2:5, etc., etc.).
However, in the above statement, Mr. F has denuded Jesus of being a genuine man by simply ascribing to him a human body indwelt by God the Son (or, more commonly stated, a "human nature" indwelt by God the Son, etc.). However, this is not what the any of the early church believed - they believed and Jesus Himself believed (Jn 8:40 - interesting book for Him to say that isn't it?) that He was 100% a man - that is He was a human conciousness, just like Adam. This does not take away from the fullness of the deity dwelling in Him - rather, it re-establishes the proper understanding of the man Christ Jesus.
So, to stay on topic, the correct answer is, NO, Jesus did not remain God in the flesh (He was a man, not flesh). Rather, the man Christ Jesus was glorified and is now sitting/standing at the right hand of God as so many scriptures plainly state, e.g. Acts 7:55, etc., etc.
Best,
Aner
_____________________________
I seek my integrity over my ideology.
Suspension of belief is essential for creation of truth - and genuine submission to Jesus Christ.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/16/2009 12:36:26 AM
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MrFribbles
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Aner,
If Jesus wasn't God while on earth, then how did He remain without sin throughout His life?
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-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/16/2009 12:48:45 AM
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Aner
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Hi Mr. F
BTW - cute picture - I recall the program and enjoyed my couple of views of it.
To your question - there is no necessary relationship to being God and being sinless that I am aware of.
Regardless, if there is such a relationship in general, it does not apply in the case of the First-Born. And, in fact, it does not matter - it only matters that the scripture clearly requires Jesus to be exactly as Adam for the ressurection (ICor15:21) - that means a human consciousness/person - not just a human nature (regardless of the elements added to try to shoehorn it into various texts). That He is a man, not a human nature, is clearly stated in multiple texts.
Ultimately you will have to ask Him how He did it - obviously it can be done since He did it. It may well relate to the virgin birth - perhaps by somehow removing some genetic paternal weakness (of which I have PLENTY!!).
Sincerely,
Aner
_____________________________
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Suspension of belief is essential for creation of truth - and genuine submission to Jesus Christ.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/16/2009 12:59:55 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
However, in light of the common usage, the specific usage in John, with all due respect, I would suggest that you are reading your theology into Thomas' words.
Really?
And we should simply dismiss what Isaiah said in 7:14, which is referenced in Matthew 1:21-23 (that Jesus is Immanuel which means "God with us"), and what he said in Isaiah 9:6, that Jesus is "the mighty God, the everlasting Father", which Paul confirmed in Romans 9:5 as Christ being the one "who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen". That Isaiah saw Jesus as God on His throne ("the King, the LORD (Yahweh) of Hosts") is attested by the apostle John in Jn. 12:41 when he says Isaiah saw His glory (Isa. 6:1-5).
quote:
So, to stay on topic, the correct answer is, NO, Jesus did not remain God in the flesh (He was a man, not flesh). Rather, the man Christ Jesus was glorified and is now sitting/standing at the right hand of God as so many scriptures plainly state, e.g. Acts 7:55, etc., etc.
If Jesus was not, and did not remain God in the flesh, then you have absolutely no hope. He said "If ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins".
The fact of the matter is, that you conveniently ignored the following Scripture which cannot be changed or dismissed since it occurs in both the Old and New Testaments (Hebrews 1:8,9 which is a quotation from Psalm 45:6,7):
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou has loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; THEREFORE GOD, EVEN THY GOD HATH ANOINTED THEE above thy fellows."
It should be quite evident that the one sitting on His throne at the right hand of God the Father is none other than God the Son, who is also "the Man, Christ Jesus". If this is not one of the plainest revelations that Jesus, the Son of God, is indeed God manifest in the flesh, then nothing is. Indeed, the Jews sought to kill Him, "because He made Himself equal with God".
It is tiresome when people do not study the Scriptures yet present their half-baked ideas as truth. There is far too much of that these days.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/16/2009 1:09:43 AM
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Aner
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Hi Ezra -
When we look into each one of these texts outside of the tradition in which they have been typically taught, we find that we are reading a language and culture including linguistic style, etc. that we, in our culture and language are not altogether familiar with and, by reading into them our own linguistic/cultural style and tons of tradition to boot - your bit of a rant is quite understandable. I am always struck by how the authors of the NT use the OT and how surprisingly different than we would expect and sometimes even how the Jews themselves sometimes expected, cf. Jesus comments re: Elijah that is to come. Please note that a couple of texts, i.e. Jn 8:24 are simply incorrectly taught - eyo eimi has nothing to do with Jehovah (please review Ex 3:14 in Septuagint and again in Rev 1, 4, 5 and compare with Jn 9:9).
Regardless of this, we can easily simplify this matter by focusing on the key point that I emphasized above - we need to have a genuine man, as didactic scripture plainly teaches (rather than OT/NT usages/poetic uses and the like) - we need a genuine human person - in our Christology. Do you have this? And, if so, how does this person relate to the Logos/God the Son person/consciousness?
BTW - I note that the text you provided indicates a fundamental difference between Jehovah and Jesus -
quote:
...THEREFORE GOD, EVEN THY GOD HATH ANOINTED THEE above thy fellows."
This use of the term "God" as applied to the man Christ Jesus is well known (Jn 10:34) and in the Heb 1:8, 9 instance perfectly fits - because the man who is our God, Jesus Christ, also has a God - Jehovah. This mention of Jesus having a God is repeated a multitude of times in scripture including the well-known passage in Jn 20:17.
Please note again that this does not take away from the fullness of the God essence dwelling within Jesus (Col1) - what it does do is correctly re-establishes the man Christ Jesus as the fundamental point of our faith (ITim2:5, ICor15:21, Rom 8:29, etc., etc.)
Best,
Aner
< Message edited by Aner -- 2/16/2009 1:37:33 AM >
_____________________________
I seek my integrity over my ideology.
Suspension of belief is essential for creation of truth - and genuine submission to Jesus Christ.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/16/2009 11:54:22 AM
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awaken
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Another question I ponder in this is if Jesus was God in the flesh...then how can we be like Jesus? If we were God in the flesh we could conquer as Jesus did, right? How is he our example if he is God? How can we expect to be tempted as Jesus and overcome?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/16/2009 12:20:02 PM
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rawr.ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
Another question I ponder in this is if Jesus was God in the flesh...then how can we be like Jesus? If we were God in the flesh we could conquer as Jesus did, right? How is he our example if he is God? How can we expect to be tempted as Jesus and overcome?
Because the way He lived His life was to show us how WE could do it, not to just "cheat" by using His deity. Everything He did is repeatable by us.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/16/2009 12:26:04 PM
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laura...
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
Another question I ponder in this is if Jesus was God in the flesh...then how can we be like Jesus? If we were God in the flesh we could conquer as Jesus did, right? How is he our example if he is God? How can we expect to be tempted as Jesus and overcome?
Because the way He lived His life was to show us how WE could do it, not to just "cheat" by using His deity. Everything He did is repeatable by us.
Repeatable by us through the power of the Holy Spirit who was sent to live in us.
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This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/16/2009 1:23:49 PM
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rawr.ben
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Bullseye.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/16/2009 2:52:56 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Ultimately you will have to ask Him how He did it
Nuh-uh. You don't get to cop-out with the shrug of the shoulders and the "We just won't know 'til heaven!" Square your beliefs with Romans 3:23. If Jesus was only man, then He sinned.
quote:
Scripture plainly teaches that Jesus is a man necessarily exactly the same as Adam (ICor15:21)
No, it doesn't. If that were the case, then Jesus wouldn't fit - Jesus wasn't formed out of the dirt. 1 Cor. 15:21 says Jesus was a 100% man, and I agree with that. I just add that He was also, simultaneously, 100% God.
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"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/16/2009 3:35:23 PM
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Aner
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quote:
Because the way He lived His life was to show us how WE could do it, not to just "cheat" by using His deity. Everything He did is repeatable by us.
Hi 1Love,
Here is my difficulty with this well known concept - if Jesus was simply God manifest in the flesh as Mr. F has stated (and not a real man) - then NOTHING He did is repeatable because He is a person of God - and we are a human person. At no point can a person of man do what a person of God can do.
This is why it is essential that Jesus be a human person/conciousness - which is what a man fundamental is and which the scripture declare Jesus to be.
Best,
Aner
< Message edited by Aner -- 2/16/2009 3:50:17 PM >
_____________________________
I seek my integrity over my ideology.
Suspension of belief is essential for creation of truth - and genuine submission to Jesus Christ.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/16/2009 3:42:10 PM
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awaken
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
However, in light of the common usage, the specific usage in John, with all due respect, I would suggest that you are reading your theology into Thomas' words.
Really?
And we should simply dismiss what Isaiah said in 7:14, which is referenced in Matthew 1:21-23 (that Jesus is Immanuel which means "God with us"), and what he said in Isaiah 9:6, that Jesus is "the mighty God, the everlasting Father", which Paul confirmed in Romans 9:5 as Christ being the one "who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen". That Isaiah saw Jesus as God on His throne ("the King, the LORD (Yahweh) of Hosts") is attested by the apostle John in Jn. 12:41 when he says Isaiah saw His glory (Isa. 6:1-5).
2 Cor. 5:19 says God was in Christ...does this mean he is God?
Christ is in us...does this make us Christ?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/16/2009 3:47:31 PM
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Aner
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quote:
Nuh-uh. You don't get to cop-out with the shrug of the shoulders and the "We just won't know 'til heaven!" Square your beliefs with Romans 3:23. If Jesus was only man, then He sinned.
Hi Mr. F.
re: cop-out
Sadly, there are lots of "cop-outs", e.g. where did God come from, etc., etc. The reality is that neither you nor I know the answer to LOTS AND LOTS of things - which is why there are "mysteries" and why we see through a "glass darkly" (or, sort oxymoronic questions like - ""can God make a rock too heavy for Him to lift" and the sort). I am very comfortable with not knowing all the answers to questions that some may by implication draw out from various texts - however, I am not comfortable with ignoring plain texts of scripture (ITim2:5, ICor15:21, Jn 20:17, etc., etc., etc.). Regardless, I will take a stab at the implication you were drawing from -
re: Rom 3:23
ALL have sinned - the question is who is the ALL? Birds, trees rocks? Are there manifest exceptions? Of course - the Lord of Glory. You and I both know many instances were there are general rules stated but obvious exceptions, e.g. Rom 13:1 "obey the rulers in all things". Well, you and I both know that both Peter, Paul and Jesus Himself did NOT obey the rulers in all things - because Rom 13:1 is a general statement. Likewise Rom 3:23 is a general statement and it applies to whom it applies to (that would be me and you btw...  )
quote:
1 Cor. 15:21 says Jesus was a 100% man, and I agree with that.
The bottom line that I presented to Ezra - is that Jesus MUST be a genuine man (the source of how He became is not relevant but that His being needs to be the same - a human conciousness/person) You and I are just like Adam - despite the fact that we did not come from the ground but from the womb - likewise, obviously, Jesus (ICor15:21). The real question is - is the Jesus you know a human person/conciousness, i.e. a man (albeit glorified)? If so, what is the relationship between the human person/conciousness and the person of God the Son/Logos??
Again - this does not detract from the fullness of divinity indwelling Him (Col 2:9) - it merely re-restablishes the man Christ Jesus as the center of our faith (ITim2:5, etc.) as plainly taught by Himself and His apostles .
Best,
Aner
_____________________________
I seek my integrity over my ideology.
Suspension of belief is essential for creation of truth - and genuine submission to Jesus Christ.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/17/2009 12:15:50 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I am not comfortable with ignoring plain texts of scripture (ITim2:5, ICor15:21, Jn 20:17, etc., etc., etc.).
You say you were raised being taught a trinitarian idea. Was the idea of submission among the Trinity ever explained to you?
quote:
the question is who is the ALL?
That's not really a question at all. Looking at the passage in context, it's clear that it is talking about humanity.
quote:
Likewise Rom 3:23 is a general statement and it applies to whom it applies to
The problem with this view is that you're deciding subjectively who to apply it to, to fit it into your view. You're not letting Scripture speak for itself.
quote:
Jesus MUST be a genuine man
We agree on this. But Jesus was also God. 100% God, 100% man.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/17/2009 12:19:17 AM
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Aner
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quote:
The bottom line that I presented to Ezra - is that Jesus MUST be a genuine man (the source of how He became is not relevant but that His being needs to be the same - a human conciousness/person) You and I are just like Adam - despite the fact that we did not come from the ground but from the womb - likewise, obviously, Jesus (ICor15:21). The real question is - is the Jesus you know a human person/conciousness, i.e. a man (albeit glorified)? If so, what is the relationship between the human person/conciousness and the person of God the Son/Logos??
Hi Mr F
I don't think I heard an answer to my above questions - these are really the crux of the matter.
Best,
Aner
_____________________________
I seek my integrity over my ideology.
Suspension of belief is essential for creation of truth - and genuine submission to Jesus Christ.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/17/2009 10:37:16 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I don't think I heard an answer to my above questions - these are really the crux of the matter.
Well, you may not have heard one, but I gave one when I said,
"We agree on this. But Jesus was also God. 100% God, 100% man."
Also, I'm wondering how you would respond to Colossians 2:9.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/17/2009 10:52:17 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPezquote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Another one, did Christ heal because he was God? Everything Christ did was because He is God. Would you care to rephrase your question? Actually I would say the answer to that is no.
While remaining Fully God, He limited Himself to walking by faith as we must do. That is why in Matt 13.58 Mark 6.5 He could not do more than heal a few sick. He had to rely on the Holy Spirit just as we do. That means He is our example in everything.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/17/2009 2:20:46 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
I don't think I heard an answer to my above questions - these are really the crux of the matter.
I saw your questions and simply ignored them.
You do not seem to be able to understand this doctrine, but wish to impose your own ideas on it.
More seriously, you reject the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is indeed God. Therefore any discussion with you is pointless.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/17/2009 2:47:00 PM
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awaken
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Aner
quote:
The bottom line that I presented to Ezra - is that Jesus MUST be a genuine man (the source of how He became is not relevant but that His being needs to be the same - a human conciousness/person) You and I are just like Adam - despite the fact that we did not come from the ground but from the womb - likewise, obviously, Jesus (ICor15:21). The real question is - is the Jesus you know a human person/conciousness, i.e. a man (albeit glorified)? If so, what is the relationship between the human person/conciousness and the person of God the Son/Logos??
Hi Mr F
I don't think I heard an answer to my above questions - these are really the crux of the matter.
Best,
Aner
I thought it was a very thought provoking question...I just do not have the answer. I was hoping someone else would explain it.
What do you believe the relationship between the two are?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/18/2009 2:39:48 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
I thought it was a very thought provoking question...I just do not have the answer. I was hoping someone else would explain it.
What do you believe the relationship between the two are?
This question has already been answered several times. The Lord Jesus Christ is fully God and fully sinless man without confusing or compromising the two natures.
Because He is a sinless Man, He is unique and unlike any other man.
Because He is also fully God, He is unique and unlike any other man.
The heresies arise when people deny or minimize one nature over the other, or try to explain this mystery by humanistic "logic".
That is why Scripture declares: "Great is the mystery of godliness: GOD [THEOS] WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH..."
Any attempts to explain away theos in this verse is nothing short of heretical.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/18/2009 3:41:12 PM
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awaken
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” Almost all the modern versions have the verse as “the mystery of godliness is great, which was manifest in the flesh,” or some close equivalent. Which one is right?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/19/2009 1:36:05 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
” Almost all the modern versions have the verse as “the mystery of godliness is great, which was manifest in the flesh,” or some close equivalent. Which one is right?
Just because almost all modern versions have a corrupted reading of this verse should not cause us to accept their reading. In fact, this is one of the primary reasons why modern versions are unreliable.
The Greek text reads mega estin to tes eusebeias musterion Theos ephanerothe en sarki (great is the mystery of godliness God was manifested in the flesh).
In order to determine the correct reading out of three -- theos = God, os = who and o = which, one of the most capable 19th century textual scholars -- Dean John William Burgon -- examined all the manuscripts, versions, lectionaries, and writings of the Early Church Fathers personally and then wrote a 76 page dissertation on this verse in his outstanding book The Revision Revised (pages 424-501) of which I have a reprint (1883).
There were hundreds of manuscripts available (with 254 cursive copies of Paul's epistles). Burgon summed up the evidence for God (theos) as follows:
"[against 2 copies of S. Paul's epistles which read os (who) are] -- the following TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY TWO COPIES WHICH READ THEOS..."
and he lists all the cursive manuscripts. He then goes on to show that the majority of versions, lectionaries, and church fathers also support this reading.
The KJV and the Reformation Bibles translate as "God" the word theos, but the modern versions follow the critical texts and the critics. So why did the critics chose "which" or "who"? Because they elevated to the position of idols two corrupt manuscripts -- Aleph and B, and Aleph reads "who".
The reason for the corruption of this word is not difficult to determine. The difference between os and Theos is two horizontal lines which were generally very faint. But to reject the majority of the readings in favor of a very small minority indicates the bias of the critics and the lack of discernment of modern translators. That is why I (and thousands of others) stick to the AV (KJV).
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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