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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/22/2008 7:07:59 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
If Jesus healed because he was God, how did the discpiles heal?
See, this is why I asked you to rephrase you question, which you didn't really do. Your premise and your question ask two different things. "Because" implies a reason, why "how" seeks out a means/method. The reason that Jesus healed is a different matter than the means by which the disciples healed.
Jesus healed because it was in His character as God to do so. The power by which Jesus Christ healed is not the same issue as the motivation behind His healings. (It's also a different matter than the means by which He cast out demons, because healings and excorcism are not the same.) Jesus healed by the power of God. It is irrelevant which person of the Trinity actually did the healing, as they are in perfect unity. Jesus Christ was all the fullness of the Godhead, He was fully God in the flesh, He did not cease to be divine in any way.
The disciples healed by the power of God, but that does not make them gods, nor does their not being God somehow imply that Jesus Christ was not either. Just because God can work through mere men, does not mean that Jesus Christ was a mere man.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/25/2008 8:48:31 PM
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MrKimba
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I think this all boils down to one of two views.
A Theosis view which God became man inorder to become God. Or Jesus was 100% God and 100% Man at the same time. The problem with this view is how do you become dumb and know all the secrets of the universe at the same time. This is a big problem, as I like to put it, You got to know what to know inorder to not know it, so do you really not know it. This view supports all of God contained in a human body (even omnipresence -- everywhere at once) at once and Christ having interesting identity issues.
Or a Kenosis view in which Christ emptied himself of all that is God and became Man. The major problem or aspect to this view is that Christ was in Heaven fully divine at the same time on earth. Sort of one Identity bridging two persons. If you think that God is outside of time, he has no lifespan as we know it, since every moment of time he sees. Thus there is no time that he can be a human solely without him being in heaven at the same time.
Here is what we know:
Christ was made a little lower than the Angels (Heb. 2:9).
He was like us in every respect (Heb. 2:17)
He did not know the timing of his Coming (Matt 24:36)
He grew in Wisdom and Stature (Luke 2:52) (God has no potential therefore cannot grow).
In all aspects of Christ life, he had no Identity issues. He knew he was the son of God and God.
There is no evidence that we see where he had divine abilities (all things similar was done by man blessed by God).
He was tempted (God cannot be tempted -- think about it how do you tempt God).
He died.
He felt pain and had emotions.
Many people often cite verses to support his diety on earth and his power from a post Glorified state (i.e. after he went to heaven). This does nothing more than to confuse the issue. Mainly this is done, because for some reason it deminishes Jesus to think that he would be soley human for us.
The problem with all of this, is we really do not know the mechanics of God (how he pulled this off) so either position is valid, but there is probably a position we haven't thought about.
Personally I believe the kenosis, less problems but it is not in vogue (ie. you be branded as a heritic)
kim
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/26/2008 11:18:22 AM
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pabrain
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Hi again MrKimba.
I refer to your post #. 77, and would like to comment on your understanding of, the "Kenosis view", as follows.
other verses that appear to support what you say are,
Phl 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
How can you give someone that which they already have?
Psa 121:4 Behold, He that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.
Jesus went to sleep in the back of a boat.
Every blessing.
Edwin.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/27/2008 2:42:51 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 1422
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
Phl 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
How can you give someone that which they already have?
Ah, but when was Jesus Christ given the name above all names? and what is that name?
The name is God's name, as given to Moses in Exodus 3.
Exodus 3:14-15
14God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" 15God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you ' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.
LORD, in all caps, is the English translation of the tetragrammaton, YHWH. It can be translated, roughly, as HE IS, The Living One or The Existent One. Simply, God says of of Himself that "I AM" and we say of Him that HE IS.
John 8:24, 58
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
...
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
In both of these, Jesus Christ declares of Himself "I AM" (in verse 24, the word "he" is only implied by the text, a literal rendering would just be "unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins.") So, before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ was LORD. Jesus Christ has always had the name above all names. He was given that name when He was begotten of the Father, which is to say that it didn't happen at any point in time, it has always been.
For Jesus to cease being God while He was man, would mean that He was not the same yesterday, and that He was the God who was, who was not, and then was again. That is contrary to scripture, which says that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. He is the God who was, and who is and who is to come.
quote:
Psa 121:4 Behold, He that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.
Jesus went to sleep in the back of a boat.
 Please tell me that you're not serious about this, are you? Scripture also says that:
1 Samuel 15:29
"Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."
Were you going to pull that one out next and claim that God isn't a man? You realize that this isn't saying that God cannot take on flesh, or that Jesus Christ is not a man, it is saying that God is not like men who are fickle. Similarly, Psalm 121 needs to be taken in context:
Psalm 121:5, 7-8
The LORD is your keeper; The LORD is your shade on your right hand.
...
7The LORD will protect you from all evil; He will keep your soul. 8The LORD will guard your going out and your coming in From this time forth and forever.
Yes, Jesus slept. He was human as well as God. Humans sleep. However, when the Bible says that God does not slumber or sleep, it's not talking about something so simple. It's about God protecting us at all times, and God still did that, even while Jesus slept. No harm came to the apostles in that event. Jesus was not unaware of what was going on. In no way did Jesus Christ cease to be the God described in Psalm 121 simply because He slept as humans do, while He was in earthly flesh.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/27/2008 3:55:25 PM
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MrKimba
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quote:
For Jesus to cease being God while He was man, would mean that He was not the same yesterday, and that He was the God who was, who was not, and then was again. That is contrary to scripture, which says that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. He is the God who was, and who is and who is to come.
No one is suggesting that Jesus ceased to become God. Also, to cary your point one step further, than Jesus could never be man, because he is God and therefore he cannot change.
God lives outside of time, therefore no matter what happens he is the same. For example the Lambs Book of Life which is written before the foundation of the world (Rev 17:8) is also being written (Rev. 3:5). Because to Him the Book has been written, is being written and will be written at the same time.
We can see pure state changes of Jesus in the scriptures as follows:
Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Christ was once dead, but he came to life (Rev 2:8).
All of these things happen in the timeline we exist. But to God they have always been and therefore he has never changed.
The Book of Hebrews is dedicated to the simple yet profound principle, that Christ had to be like us in order to be the Perfect Sacrifice and the Perfect Priest to man. He became our Mediator between God and Man.
kim
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/27/2008 4:01:57 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 1422
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrKimba
No one is suggesting that Jesus ceased to become God. Also, to cary your point one step further, than Jesus could never be man, because he is God and therefore he cannot change.
I can't understand that first sentence there. Is the broken grammar intentional? The question posed in this thread is "Did Jesus remain God in the flesh?" There are those in this thread who have suggested that Jesus Christ ceased to be God (see posts #19, #60).
As to how Jesus Christ can never change, but still become human. His nature as God did not change. He remained the God who was and who is and who is to come. As God He did not change at all, remaining exactly as He was before creation. However, He added humanity to Himself, God remaining God, but becoming human as well. His servanthood, His death, all were possible because He became man, not because He ceased to be God in any way.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/27/2008 4:21:51 PM
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MrKimba
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Humbly embarresed.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/29/2008 5:49:35 AM
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pabrain
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Hi figmentPez.
Thank you for your post #. 79
You are correct, I agree with you, this is the name that is above every name no problem, however, as you ask.
"when was Jesus Christ given the name"
In the first instance, it was not given to Him, because He already had it, so how could it possibly be given Him again?
Well let us first look at verse 9 within the context of, Philippians 2:5-9, inclusive as shown in the NRSV.
9 Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name,
The first word is, "Therefore", now whenever this word appears we must ask ourselves what is it there for. Well it is intended to draw our attention to the preceding verse which reads,
8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death— even death on a cross.
This of course is the reason why He was both, "exalted", and was given the name YHWH, however, we now have a problem if Jesus as a man was also at the same time God?
Unless once more the context helps us, so what does verse 7 say,
7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form,
Firstly the expression, "emptied himself ", if translated literally from the Greek, would read, "emptied himself empty", this is emphatic, that is to say totally, not partially, in other words, whatever it was Jesus emptied Himself of, it was, all of, not some of . Verse 7 can only refer to what was being considered in verse 6, namely the Deity of the second person of the Trinity, in other words it was His, "equality with God", of which Jesus divested Himself. This is confirmed at verse 9, where Jesus has restored to Him, that of which He had previously, "emptied himself empty".
Note: You cannot give someone what they already have.
I could of course be wrong, and therefore look forward to reading your interpretation of these 5 verses,
May the Lord bless you, and keep you safe.
pabrain.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/29/2008 5:49:01 PM
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pabrain
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Hi once more figmentPez.
This is a continuation of my post #. 83.
You draw my attention to "I AM", as found in John Ch 8,
ESV - Jhn 8:24 - “I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
You will note that, "he", has been inserted after I am, and although this is not found in the Greek it is never the less implied, and appears in the majority of Bible translations in English, as it does also in verse 28,
ESV - Jhn 8:28 - So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.
The question we should ask in respect of the two verses above, is what exactly is it that Jesus is claiming?. Is He claiming to be God, or the Messiah?
Verse 24, is about lack of salvation, that is, "if you don't believe, you will die un saved". So what must they do to be saved?
Jhn 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
They must. "believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God", that is the Messiah, there is no need to believe that He is God before they can be saved, in fact no where in the Gospel accounts does it say that in order to be saved one must believe that Jesus as a man was also God at the same time.
Now verse 28, here our Lord Jesus is drawing our attention to His forthcoming crucifixion, and at the same time referring to Isaiah 52:13, which is where Chapter Isaiah 53 starts, and which reads,
NASB - Isa 52:13 - Behold, My servant will prosper, He will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted.
Whilst on the cross He drew every ones attention to Psalm 22, by quoting the first verse. The first 18 verses of this Psalm give a graphic description of just what was happening to Him at that time.
Therefore, once more He is not claiming to be God, but to be the Messiah.
Now let us have a look at verse 58,
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
In this verse Jesus is telling us that He existed before He was conceived, and of course at that time in eternity He is God, this statement also confirms what John the Baptist had said at,
NASB - Jhn 1:15 - John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' "
Every blessing.
pabrain.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/31/2008 2:04:37 PM
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terryjohn
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"OK, if Jesus was still God in the flesh, who did He talk to when He was praying? Was the trinity separated during the time that Jesus was in the flesh and God the Father and God the Holy Spirit remained in heaven while God the Son became flesh and dwelt among men?"
Who do we speak to when we stop and think about what we should do or say? We all talk to ourselves in making important decisions and we find in our own being a body/flesh, mind and spirit and we have no problem in referring to all of them as being fully us with no seperation of blame. Although we could all wish the flesh were more under our control.
"God" is a title, not a name, and it makes you wonder why scripture has to stress the fact that God is one when we are one in ourselves. I guess conscousness demands some communication between the spirit and the flesh that make up the one person. I also guess thoughts must be verbalised if they are to have effect. Even in the creation story, God spoke the world into being. He said and it happened as if it could not if He hadn't spoken. Hence, the spoken Word takes on the personality of God Himself for it is God as is any our self expressions essentially us.
Sure my spoken and written words are mine and no one elses but it must be remembered I am much more than what I reveal in them. So if you reject my words you reject me and in the same light if we reject Christ and his words we have rejected God himself.
Marvel not that God can appear as a man, for men were created in the image and likeness of God.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 1/1/2009 11:26:08 AM
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pabrain
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Hi terryjohn.
Thank you for your post #. 85, in which you ask,
"OK, if Jesus was still God in the flesh, who did He talk to when He was praying?"
To His Father of course who was with Him, see,
Jhn 8:29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."
Jhn 16:32 Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me.
"Was the trinity separated during the time that Jesus was in the flesh and God the Father and God the Holy Spirit remained in heaven while God the Son became flesh and dwelt among men?"
No, in Eternity the Trinity remained intact, all three persons of the Godhead are omnipresent, see,
Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.
ESV - Jhn 3:13 - “No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.*
Footnote:
* Some manuscripts add who is in heaven
Note: Jesus in eternity is God, always has been God, and will always be God. When He left eternity some 2000 years ago to enter time for some 33+ years He demonstrated His omnipresence
"Who do we speak to when we stop and think about what we should do or say? We all talk to ourselves in making important decisions and we find in our own being abody/flesh, mind and spirit and we have no problem in referring to all of them as being fully us with no seperation of blame. Although we could all wish the flesh were more under our control."
You mention, "body/flesh, mind and spirit", yes we also have three components,
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
"God" is a title, not a name, and it makes you wonder why scripture has to stress the fact that God is one when we are one in ourselves. I guess conscousness demands some communication between the spirit and the flesh that make up the one person. I also guess thoughts must be verbalised if they are to have effect. Even in the creation story, God spoke the world into being. He said and it happened as if it could not if He hadn't spoken. Hence, the spoken Word takes on the personality of God Himself for it is God as is any our self expressions essentially us."
My understanding is that God the Father gives instructions to His Son to do something, and the Son gives instructions to the Holy Spirit who then carries out that instruction.
"Sure my spoken and written words are mine and no one elses but it must be remembered I am much more than what I reveal in them. So if you reject my words you reject me and in the same light if we reject Christ and his words we have rejected God himself."
Yes I agree.
"Marvel not that God can appear as a man, for men were created in the image and likeness of God."
And to this also.
Every blessing.
pabrain.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 1/11/2009 5:31:06 PM
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Prophetictime
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Who do you say Jesus is? This is something Jesus requested of Peter and to each. Here is a point of view.
John 12:44-45
44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.
Jesus is making it clear here to believe in him you need to eventually understand something else about him. That is this, that the one who sent him is in fact the same one you see when you look at Jesus. Jesus is God Almighty the Father. I will speak about what Jesus said about the Father being greater than he in a moment.
Isaiah 45-21-23
21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.
Jesus is a just God and Savior and it states there is no GOD or Savior besides the God of Israel. Since this is Jewish scripture then Jesus is either God and Savior or not. If this scripture is true and we know it is then Jesus is God Almighty the creator and our Father. John 1 makes that clear as well.
22 “Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
Once again God declares there is no God but the God of Israel
23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.
Notice above God said he has sworn by himself and to him every knee shall bow. If every knee is going to bow to Jesus then Jesus has to be God Almighty our Father.
John 14:9
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
John 20:26-28
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
So who is Jesus Christ according to the scriptures above?
Jesus is God the Father the creator, but when Jesus became flesh he came as a son with no more power than Adam had before the fall. Adam had great authority and wisdom with God in the garden until he fell.
Jesus had to pass the test Adam failed to redeem us which was temptation and obedience. If Jesus had used his power as God rather than limit himself to no more power than Adam had before the fall then Lucifer would have known who Jesus was and from God’s point of view it would have been cheating.
When Jesus said he considered it robbery to be considered equal to God he did mean it. Even though Jesus was the Father he was operating with only the power Adam had as a son before the fall. Any other power Jesus manifested he attested to the Father’s work.
The Holy spirit also spoke out of heaven saying concerning Jesus, ” This is my beloved Son in whom I’m well pleased.”
Jesus also said ” The father is greater than I.”
Jesus knew he had to die for us in order to redeem us legally, Jesus also knew he had to keep hidden the fullness of who he was until all was fulfilled, but Jesus gave us clues everywhere who he was.
When Jesus died on the Cross for us he died as a real son of God because he limited himself in power to that of a son, but when Jesus rose for our justification he no longer had to hide who he was.
Peter said you are the son of the living God, and Jesus affirmed that without correction to Peter.
Years later doubting Thomas said MY LORD AND MY GOD and Jesus did not correct him.
Before Jesus had accended he said to Mary ” Do not touch me Mary for I have not yet accended to the Father.
Later he said to Thomas, put your hand in my side and touch my wound and be believing, not faithless.
The scriptures declare that no one can say Jesus is Lord (with faith & understanding) without the Holy Spirit.
The Word Lord in the greek is Kurios, it is as Thomas spoke it. It does not mean Lord Churchill or some knighted person from England. It means LORD as in God Almighty.
So the scripture is true, ” No one can say Jesus Christ is God Almighty (LORD) except by the Holy Spirit. That is what that scripture really means. No one can say Jesus is God except by the Holy Spirit.
If you say Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings then what you are really saying is that Jesus is God above all Gods King above kings. So be the truth Amen and Forever Amen.
_____________________________
In the end only kindness matters. Praise to Jesus Christ in the Highest.
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Uncovering the Antichrist and 666 - Click Here
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 1/11/2009 6:54:46 PM
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silverkid
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If he was fully God and Fully man you have look at the scriptures all together and see if that it truth when he was on the earth...
Read the whole thing before you react and get your Bible and follow along...
So what does that mean about who Jesus was on earth??? what was His nature? He did no sin but did he have a choice? Could He have sinned? If not how can He be tempted if it is not even a possibility? some people say tested but either way if He could not fail the test how is that a test?
Was He a man? Was He tempted? Was he born of woman? Did He call Himself the Son of Man? Is scripture always true. Did he empty Himself when He came to Earth?
If all these answers are yes than you have to do some thinking on what form Jesus took on this earth... I know He is the Word Life, Son of God, word made flesh, and the Light of men and the Word was God… but let us look at what he did to come to earth... i know this has been debated for 100's of years but these are key scriptures to think about... And when you really think about it... It is even more amazing what He did...
Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
2758. kenoo, ken-o'-o; from G2756; to make empty, i.e. (fig.) to abase
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
If He was made lower than angels and made Himself Empty than what was He a man? Can you be empty and lower than an angel and be fully God? But let us go on. Without going to all the scriptures as you all probably know them... If God cannot be tempted (james 1:13)how was it that Jesus was Tempted in the wilderness and tempted in all points as we are (luke 4: Heb 4:15)???
Was Jesus born of woman? Then let us look at some scriptures...
Job 14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.
Job 14:2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
Job 14:3 And dost thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Job 14:5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Is the above a true saying? and does it apply to Jesus if he was born of woman??
What did Jesus then say about Himself?
(John 5:30 KJV) I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(John 5:31 KJV) If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
He could not do anything of himself? If He bore witness of himself it would not be true? He says only God is good. how can this be?
Or why did He sweat drops of blood in the garden and say "let this cup pass from me but not my will but thine be done"? he therefore had a different will than that of the father....
But let us go on.... Didn't Jesus call himself the Son of Man? What does the scripture teach about the son of man...? i know there are more scriptures but these few must also be true...
This one describes Jesus on the cross...
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
(Job 25:6 KJV) How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
Interesting that the "worm" for son of man is different than the "worm" for man. It is a scarlet or crimson worm used for making clothes red... so when Jesus called Himself a son of man I am sure he knew these scriptures....
for two more scripture for this post....
1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
If this were not possible than why was it written walk as He (Jesus) walked. He showed us the way as a man (empty and abased) born as the second Adam not under sin but with a nature that could sin just like the first Adam. He just chose not to and only allowed the father to be seen. We must do the same and He will call us brethren...
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Fully God or fully man or both? If He emptied himself than fully man totally following His father. Doing nothing of himself.... If fully God than how do the above scriptures apply? Or how about nan and God but the god part emptied out until He was resurrected...?
This may be a little choppy but consider the whole thing and don't just pull out little bits and pieces. It is amazing that Jesus came down to earth in the form of a man and walked totally blamless as an example and then died as a spotless lamb and took all our sins so we can abide in Him and walk just as He walked.... He only had one chance to do it and by His blood we can walk the same way and yet still fall and get back up to try again....
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 1/13/2009 3:32:01 PM
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pabrain
Posts: 291
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Hi Prophetictime, and silverkid.
Thank you both for your posts.
It is a joy for me to read what you have said.
I have been a Christian for more than 47 years, and in all that time I have never come across anyone else who had the same understanding of Scripture verses regarding our Lord Jesus Christ's humanity that you two have.
I will not repeat material that I have already posted on this thread, but another verse I came across the other day is found at Act 1:2, below,
Act 1:1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
Act 1:2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,
Act 1:3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
Note it does not say," He had given commandments", but " He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments".
I believe the reason why Jesus did things this way is illustrated in the post below.
Hi Friend
I refer to your post in which you said,
"Eve did not have a Divine nature".
Yes this is true, as it is of you, and me also, for although we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we are not G-d.
If we humans who are not Divine are to be shown how to behave towards the Lord our G-d in the way He requires, then this must be demonstrated to us by another human who is also not Divine otherwise there will be many problems as is made clear by what follows.
A young man who had not been a Christian for very long, spoke to the Pastor of the Church he attended, and said, "Please can you help me, as I am finding living the Christian life very difficult".
The Pastor's advised him to read the words of our Lord Jesus as found in the Gospels, and in particular in John's Gospel, and to look for those verses where Jesus was talking about His relationship with His Father G-d, and especially the attitude that He continually adopted towards His Father.
Although this was indeed excellent advice, the young man went away with a heavy heart, for as he said to himself, "Why didn't he tell me how Paul did it, how Peter did it, how James did it, how John did it, and not how Jesus did it, for He was Divine as well as being human", "I would expect nothing less than perfection from one who is both G-d and man, and not just man as I am".
You see the Pastor forgot that three weeks previously when speaking on Phil 2:5- 13, he had said, "Although we are about to look at the true humanity of our Lord Jesus Christ, let it be clearly understood that never at any time was He any less than
G-d".
May the Lord bless you, and keep you safe.
Edwin.
< Message edited by pabrain -- 1/13/2009 3:39:45 PM >
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/10/2009 5:54:51 PM
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awaken
Posts: 90
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Where in the Bible does it actually say Jesus is God in the Flesh? I read he is the son of God, he is the word(logos) made flesh, lamb of God...but where does it say God in flesh?
I was raised to believe the trinity...even though I did not understand it. I have a lot of questions...
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/10/2009 7:22:46 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2402
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quote:
Where in the Bible does it actually say Jesus is God in the Flesh? I read he is the son of God, he is the word(logos) made flesh, lamb of God...but where does it say God in flesh?
The Bible doesn't come right out and say a lot of things (you won't find the word Trinity in the Bible, for example). But, a good place to start would be Colossians 2:9 - "For in him [the "him" here is Jesus] the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily," as the ESV puts it.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/10/2009 8:31:38 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
Where in the Bible does it actually say Jesus is God in the Flesh? I read he is the son of God, he is the word(logos) made flesh, lamb of God...but where does it say God in flesh?
Read 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV).
You will see this mistranslated in modern bible versions, because they tampered with the Greek text.
God was manifest in the flesh means that God revealed Himself in a human body of flesh and blood. This is speaking of Jesus, as the rest of the verse shows.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/10/2009 11:21:54 PM
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awaken
Posts: 90
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Where in the Bible does it actually say Jesus is God in the Flesh? I read he is the son of God, he is the word(logos) made flesh, lamb of God...but where does it say God in flesh?
The Bible doesn't come right out and say a lot of things (you won't find the word Trinity in the Bible, for example). But, a good place to start would be Colossians 2:9 - "For in him [the "him" here is Jesus] the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily," as the ESV puts it.
Doesn't 2 Peter 1:4 also say that we have this divine nature. Isn't this talking about the Spirit without limit?..John 3:24 ...we are also given the Holy Spirit, right?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/10/2009 11:27:46 PM
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awaken
Posts: 90
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1 Timothy 3:16....... “By common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory” (NASB). This section of Scripture beautifully portrays an overview of Christ’s life and accomplishments. It all fits with what we know of the man, Jesus Christ. If Jesus were God, this section of Scripture would have been the perfect place to say so. Why does't it say, “God incarnate,” “God and Man united,” “very God and very man,” etc. This section testifies —that Christ was a man, begotten by the Father, and that he was taken up into glory.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/10/2009 11:48:53 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2402
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
If Jesus were God, this section of Scripture would have been the perfect place to say so. Why does't it say, “God incarnate,” “God and Man united,” “very God and very man,” etc
So we ought to second guess the authors of Scripture?
Paul doesn't say, "Here's an exhaustive theology on the nature of who Jesus the Christ was." We shouldn't assume that just because certain parts aren't mentioned, they can't be true.
quote:
This section testifies —that Christ was a man
Yes, but notice the way it puts it. I'm especially fond of the ESV's reading - He was manifested in the flesh. What does that imply? That he was something else before He became a man. Unless you believe in the pre-existence of souls, this is pretty tough to reconcile with the idea of Jesus just being a man lacking in deity.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/11/2009 2:40:31 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1727
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quote:
1 Timothy 3:16....... “By common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh,
Please go back and re-read what I said. "He who was revealed" is a MISTRANSLATION BASED UPON A CORRUPTED TEXT.
All the Greek manuscripts read in this places "THEOS" (God) not "OS" (who). There are only two manuscripts where you will find "OS". The difference between these two words in the uncial Greek manuscripts is two horizontal lines, which were faintly written. All the cursive copies of the text display "Theos".
When the testimony of the vast majority of manuscripts supports "GOD was manifest in the flesh", we have no right to change that reading as the modern versions have done. This was stated by Dr. Berriman as quoted by Burgon: "From when can it be supposed that this general, I may say this universal consent of the Greek MSS should arise, but from hence -- That Theos is the genuine original reading of the text".
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/11/2009 8:52:22 AM
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awaken
Posts: 90
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So are you saying because God was manifested through Jesus...He is God?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/11/2009 10:34:30 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2402
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
So are you saying because God was manifested through Jesus...He is God?
God wasn't manifested "through" Jesus. He was manifested in Jesus. Greek preposition en, and all that.
What, in your understanding, would being manifested in Jesus mean, if it doesn't mean Jesus is God?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/11/2009 10:41:25 AM
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laura...
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I was of the understanding that the subject of this thread was NOT a debate about Jesus Christ's deity.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 2/11/2009 10:48:15 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2402
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I was of the understanding that the subject of this thread was NOT a debate about Jesus Christ's deity.
Well, if Jesus was never God, He couldn't very well have remained God in the flesh. ; )
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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