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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/12/2008 12:19:29 PM
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HardKnox
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quote:
So, my defensiveness streams not from humanism, but from a view of God's grace and love which is, in my opinion, lacking when God becomes too good to even look at us sinners.
I rest my case.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/12/2008 12:27:25 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I rest my case.
That's your call. : )
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/12/2008 2:17:11 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 1394
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Newtspeak
I find this question very interesting, as I study the scriptures I see that Jesus is just who he says he is, the son of God, He prays to his Father and to his God, he only says and does what the Father tells him to do as an obedient son who loves his Father and God with all his heart soul mind and strength. It also says in 1 Corinthians 15:28 that the son will be subject to the God, and that God will be all in all. Any thoughts on this.
First thought: The Son of God is God. Like begets like. Apple trees beget apple trees. Cats beget kittens. Humans beget humans. God begets God. For Jesus Christ to be the only begotten Son of God, He must be God, and have always been God, from eternity.
Second thought: Yes, there is a hierarchy in the trinity. The Son submits to the Father, that does not change that the Son is God.
We can't discuss Jesus Christ as God in the flesh without discussing His identity as the second person of the triune God.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/13/2008 3:41:07 PM
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abraxas
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This seems polytheistic, but I understand Christianity is monotheistic. What's the difference exactly?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/13/2008 4:34:09 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 1394
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
This seems polytheistic, but I understand Christianity is monotheistic. What's the difference exactly
Polytheism believes in multiple gods. Christianity believes there is one, and only one God. That God is complex and exists eternally as three persons does not change that He is one.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/13/2008 4:58:48 PM
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abraxas
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So polytheism refers to different Gods, like a god of harvest, a god war, etc.?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/13/2008 5:14:43 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 1394
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
So polytheism refers to different Gods, like a god of harvest, a god war, etc.?
Polytheism is the belief in worshipping multiple gods. The Greeks/Romans were polytheistic. Hindu, Shinto, VooDoo, Norse mythology and other past and present religions believe there are multiple gods who are to be worshipped by those here on earth. Their gods are independent and often rivals. They are distinct and seperate entities who each have their own existence and source, with conflicting desires and goals.
Henotheism is the belief that there are multiple gods, but only one is to be worshipped. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are both henotheistic (and Mormons are, arguably, really polytheists). Both these groups, and surely others, believe that the god of the Bible is not the only god, but that he is the only one we're supposed to worship. Both believe that Jesus Christ is a different god than the Father.
Christianity is monotheistic. There is one and only one God. He is the only one who is to be worshipped, and He is the only god who even exists as anything more than fantasy or lifeless statue.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/13/2008 6:29:29 PM
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abraxas
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You know I never really understood the distinction! Thanks, figmentpez.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/19/2008 3:49:46 PM
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pabrain
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I accept without hesitation the fact that God is three persons, and I have no problem with the Deity of the second person, the Son of God in Eternity, I am, however, having difficulty in understanding the words He spoke during the 33+ years of His life here on Earth some 2000 years ago.
I am concerned with that period of time from His conception to His death, and not the time before His conception, or after His death.
Did He during this period divest Himself of His Deity, as would appear to be the case described at Philippians Ch 2 vs 5-11, and as would seem to be confirmed at,
NASB - Jhn 5:30 - "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
For example, how can God say, "I can do nothing on My own initiative"?
How can God say, "As I hear, I judge", who tells God what to do?
How can God say "I seek not mine own will"?, since when did God not seek His own will?
And, "but the will of Him who sent Me". Who sent God?
Also,
Jhn 7:16 So Jesus answered them and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
Jhn 7:17 "If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or {whether} I speak from Myself.
Jesus did not say, "whether it is from God, or from man", but, "whether it is from God or from Myself". Now if Jesus is God, then it should have read, "whether it is from God, or from God".
The only way in which the above three verses make any sense is if they where made by a man who was not at that time God.
Did people see Jesus, well of course they did, many hundreds did at one time, how then can you explain
Jhn 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained {Him.}
This verse is supported by
Exd 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"
And why did Peter on the day of Pentecost when more that 3000 were converted say, "God performed through Him", and not. "He performed"?
Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--
I look forward to receiving your comments.
Thank you.
Edwin Brain
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/19/2008 4:00:10 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2365
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quote:
For example, how can God say, "I can do nothing on My own initiative"?
Because He was in perfect submission to the Father. Technically speaking, He had the power and capability to do anything. He could have called down legions of angels, as He said in Gethsemane, but He chose not to. Why? Because of His relationship with the Father. Not lesser in power or standing, but submitting to His will anyway.
quote:
How can God say "I seek not mine own will"?, since when did God not seek His own will?
Again, it comes back to submission. If the 3 members of the Godhead were exactly identical in every respect, well, there wouldn't really be a trinity, right? The Son did not look forward to dying on the cross. He asked for another way to be made. But, even though it wasn't His will to suffer that death, it was His will to do so, if it was the Father's will.
quote:
And, "but the will of Him who sent Me". Who sent God?
God the Father sent God the Son, just as God the Son sent God the Holy Spirit after the Son went back to heaven.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/19/2008 6:45:04 PM
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sledmt
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What is really interesting about this whole discussion is, what it tell us about our walks with the Father.
A good question to ask is: If we are to become like Christ, what does that look like today?
Another one, did Christ heal because he was God?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/19/2008 10:13:43 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 1394
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Matthew 1:23
"BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."
quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
I accept without hesitation the fact that God is three persons, and I have no problem with the Deity of the second person, the Son of God in Eternity, I am, however, having difficulty in understanding the words He spoke during the 33+ years of His life here on Earth some 2000 years ago.
Before you "accept without hesitation" maybe you should stop to question what it actually means for God to be three persons. Much of your reasoning is based on false assumptions about God's revealed nature.
quote:
Did He during this period divest Himself of His Deity, as would appear to be the case described at Philippians Ch 2 vs 5-11,
God can no more divest Himself of His Diety than a rock can cease to be made of stone and still exist. God is Diety, and does not change. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
I disagree with your reading of Phil 2:5-11, because of what it means to be the Son of God, and Jesus Christ is called the Son of God many times in His ministry. The Son is begotten of the Father. The Bible teaches that each begets after it's own kind. An apple tree will beget apple trees. Cats will beget kittens. Humans beget humans. God begets God. Since Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and remained the Son of God even after He became the Son of Man as well, then He is God.
How then are we to understand Phil 2? Jesus became a servant. He did not cease to be God, did not change His essential nature, did not alter the unchanging God, but humbled Himself so as to be the perfect human that we cannot be. When He "emptied Himself" He did not cease to be God, He simply refused the entitlements that being God grants Him. He still had rights to all that God deserves, but He put those rights aside (though that did not change His nature).
quote:
And, "but the will of Him who sent Me". Who sent God?
God sent God. The Father sent the Son.
quote:
Jesus did not say, "whether it is from God, or from man", but, "whether it is from God or from Myself". Now if Jesus is God, then it should have read, "whether it is from God, or from God".
No, it shouldn't. The Father is not the Son, yet both can rightly be called God in and of themselves. It could also be rightly said that "if it is from the Father, or from from the Son". That Jesus Christ refers to His Father as God, and as His God, does not change that the Son is God as well as the Father.
quote:
The only way in which the above three verses make any sense is if they where made by a man who was not at that time God.
Then you need to consider the alternative you said you accepted without hesitation. That God is triune. That the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. The Father is not the Son, nor the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father, nor the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor the Son. Yet, each is God, and there are not three gods, but only one God.
quote:
Did people see Jesus, well of course they did, many hundreds did at one time, how then can you explain
Jhn 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained {Him.}
John 14:7
If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
quote:
Exd 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"
Genesis 32:30
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
Exodus 33:11
The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
We must realize that there are many different things that the Bible talks about when it talks about seeing God, even about seeing God's face. It is not a simple issue, and probably could be a whole thread to itself. However, let us look at this verse:
1 Timothy 3:16
By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.
Jesus Christ was God revealed in the flesh. God made manifest to humanity in the form of Jesus Christ. If Jesus Christ was not Immanuel, God with us, then we have no way of knowing God.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/19/2008 10:16:50 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 1394
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From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Another one, did Christ heal because he was God?
Everything Christ did was because He is God. Would you care to rephrase your question?
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/20/2008 4:03:41 PM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Another one, did Christ heal because he was God?
Everything Christ did was because He is God. Would you care to rephrase your question?
What does John 5:19 mean to you?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/20/2008 6:04:14 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 1394
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From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
What does John 5:19 mean to you?
John 5:19 (NASB)
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."
MrFribbles already addressed this in post #61, and I agree with him. When Jesus Christ became incarnate, it was with a purpose, to perfectly fulfill the Law, because humans cannot. This statement of Christ's is about what is necessary to fulfill the Law, obedience to the Father. This does not mean that Jesus Christ ceased to be God, merely that He acting so as to fulfill the Law.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/20/2008 6:12:19 PM
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sledmt
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How did the discpiles complete the Great Commission?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/20/2008 6:14:26 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 1394
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From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
How did the discpiles complete the Great Commission?
Has the Great Commission been completed? I must have missed that one, I thought it was ongoing work. I'm curious, what does this question have to do with the subject of this thread?
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/21/2008 4:26:02 AM
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pabrain
Posts: 300
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Hi MrFribbles.
Thank you for your post in which you said,
"He could have called down legions of angels, as He said in Gethsemane, but He chose not to".
I am concluding that the verse of Scripture to which you refer is,
Mat 26:53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
If so then it does not say that Jesus could have, "called down legions of angels", only that He could have asked His Father to do this for Him, but as He says in the next verse,
Mat 26:54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"
More later, must close now due to time.
May the Lord bless you, and keep you safe.
Edwin.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/21/2008 2:47:32 PM
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pabrain
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Hi once more MrFribbles.
Further to my previous post to you on this subject.
Let me say that I find myself in agreement with the sentiments you express in the rest of your post of 12/19/2008 4:00:10 PM, and for which I thank you.
What you have said put me in mind of the following,
Jhn 4:24 God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
God is Spirit, and I believe that in order for Him to experience the excruciating agony of death by crucifixion, a body had to be prepared, as below,
Hbr 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Hbr 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
Hbr 10:6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin You had no pleasure.
Hbr 10:7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come-- In the volume of the book it is written of Me-- To do Your will, O God."
I also believe that all three persons of the Trinity suffered, as the following verses apprar to indicate,
Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
I could of course be wrong, and look forward to any comment you may care to make.
Every blessing.
Edwin.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/21/2008 4:44:24 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2365
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
If so then it does not say that Jesus could have, "called down legions of angels", only that He could have asked His Father to do this for Him
So, would God do this for a mere man? Even the godliest of mere men? I think this intimate relationship is certainly a sign of Christ's deity while on earth.
quote:
I also believe that all three persons of the Trinity suffered, as the following verses apprar to indicate,
Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
I could of course be wrong, and look forward to any comment you may care to make.
I think I see what you're saying, but I do not believe that all three persons of the Godhead suffered as Christ did. Certainly all three persons of the Trinity did suffer, but not in the exact same way. God the Son died, but God the Father and God the Spirit did not. Though there is perfect unity within the Trinity, there isn't perfect uniformity.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/21/2008 7:00:35 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 711
Joined: 8/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
How did the discpiles complete the Great Commission?
Has the Great Commission been completed? I must have missed that one, I thought it was ongoing work. I'm curious, what does this question have to do with the subject of this thread?
If Jesus healed because he was God, how did the discpiles heal?
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/22/2008 11:24:56 AM
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pabrain
Posts: 300
Joined: 12/19/2008
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Hi sledmt.
Thank you for your post in which you ask.
"If Jesus healed because he was God, how did the discpiles heal?"
The method Jesus employed was, "by the Spirit of God", see
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
This is the same method used by His discpiles.
Every blessing.
Edwin.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/22/2008 1:17:54 PM
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pabrain
Posts: 300
Joined: 12/19/2008
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quote:
What does John 5:19 mean to you?
Hi again sledmt.
And thank you for your post in which you ask,
What does John 5:19 mean to you?
I know this question was intended for someone else, however, I do hope you that neither you, nor he will mind my attempting to answer same.
Jhn 5:19 - Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
This is not a case of one person observing what another person is doing, and then imitating it, but rather Jesus being aware of what His Father who indwelt Him was doing through Him.
The following verses explain just how this is done, and exactly what He meant by "He who has seen Me has seen the Father".
Jhn 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
Jhn 14:8 Philip *said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
Jhn 14:9 Jesus *said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and {yet} you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how {can} you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Jhn 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
Jhn 14:11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
Note: from verse 10 "but the Father abiding in Me does His works."
The Father communicates Himself through the body of the man Jesus to all people with whom He came into contact at that time, and through Scripture now to us.
When Jesus came to earth some 2000 years ago, He not only came to offer Himself as a sinless sacrifice to pay for our sins, and thus enable God to forgive as many as will accept this fact. but also to demonstrate by His life just how we humans were, and are intended by our Father God to behave towards the one who made us in His own image, our Lord, and our God.
By His life, I mean the attitude of, "Not My will, but thine be done", that Jesus continually adopted towards His Father, thus enabling the Father who indwelt the Son, to be both seen, and heard by persons alive at that time.
This is the reason why a Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, in order that you might allow the other resident within yourself to have right of way in your life, and to do just what He wants to
do in and through you.
Every blessing.
Edwin.
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RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? - 12/22/2008 6:58:08 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 1394
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
I also believe that all three persons of the Trinity suffered, as the following verses apprar to indicate,
Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
You're misunderstanding those verses. While those verses do teach that Jesus Christ remained God in the flesh, because they affirm that all that is deity remained in Jesus Christ when He was incarnate, they do not teach that the Father and the Holy Spirit were incarnate along with Christ. The Son, in and of Himself, is the fullness of deity. He has all the qualities of God present in Himself.
Nowhere in the Bible will you find that it teaches that the Father or the Holy Spirit died along with the Son.
quote:
thus enabling the Father who indwelt the Son, to be both seen,
This is blatantly false teaching. The Father did not indwell the Son. John 14:10 cannot be read that way, because the word it uses for abiding is the same instruction it gives for Christians to abide in God, and Christians do not indwell God.
quote:
The Father communicates Himself through the body of the man Jesus
God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), made Himself manifest through the Son of God, who became incarnate as the fully man, fully God Jesus Christ. The Son is not just a body that the Father spoke through, the Son of God is God.
quote:
This is the reason why a Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, in order that you might allow the other resident within yourself to have right of way in your life, and to do just what He wants to
do in and through you.
So, let me get this straight. You believe that Jesus Chirst was God because the Father was indwelling his flesh, and now you believe that Christians are exactly the same way. Does that mean that you believe that Christians are gods because of the Father's Holy Spirit indwelling them?
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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One commentator, I think that it was Matthew Henry said...