RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (Full Version)

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DaveW -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 6:44:04 AM)

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ORIGINAL: laura...
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ORIGINAL: abraxas

If Jesus was fully God, how was he able to be around sinners?
What makes you think that God cannot be around sinners?
I have heard that all my life but I read in Job that the devil himself (the epitome of sin) standing before God in heaven and having a conversation with HIM.

If God cannot be around sin or sinners, does that not make Him less than all-powerful? How would the Holy Spirit ever convict and draw sinners to repentance?



laura... -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 9:09:57 AM)

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ORIGINAL: figmentPez

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ORIGINAL: Bluethread

Do you never talk to yourself?


Not like the Son talks to the Father.

Luke 23:46
And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." Having said this, He breathed His last.

Now, tell me this, whose spirit was being committed into whose hands? And this is just the tip of the iceberg. No sane human talks to themselves the way that the Son of God talked to His Father.


That discussion really needs to go to the Trinity thread as that is part of the mystery of the Trinity.



laura... -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 9:13:32 AM)

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ORIGINAL: DaveW

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ORIGINAL: laura...
quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

If Jesus was fully God, how was he able to be around sinners?
What makes you think that God cannot be around sinners?
I have heard that all my life but I read in Job that the devil himself (the epitome of sin) standing before God in heaven and having a conversation with HIM.

If God cannot be around sin or sinners, does that not make Him less than all-powerful? How would the Holy Spirit ever convict and draw sinners to repentance?


Exactly. I do not recall the bible ever says that God cannot be around sinners. The Bible says that sinners will not enter into eternal life or the new Jerusalem.



HardKnox -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 9:20:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abraxas

If Jesus was fully God, how was he able to be around sinners?


What an incredible question! How refreshing to hear someone recognize the purity of God’s holiness in this age of an American Christianity so ridden with humanism. Only when we consider the putridity of human sin can we get a view of what is meant by “man of sorrows”. The words of the prophet Habakkuk come to my mind, “Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity....” Which should temper the passage from Job where Satan stands in the presence of God. That passage is babied-down to us because of our ignorance of the incomprehensibility of God and our sinful groveling in the dust... God lisps to us, as it were, as a nurse to a child. I have no doubt God spoke to Satan by means of angels and did not allow him into his glorious and holy presence.

This very concept helps us to understand one of the reasons why Jesus became flesh. For Holy God to be in the presence of sinful men, he must clothe himself in human flesh and nature and veil himself from the stench of polluted man.



MrFribbles -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 12:29:20 PM)

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That passage is babied-down to us because of our ignorance of the incomprehensibility of God and our sinful groveling in the dust... God lisps to us, as it were, as a nurse to a child. I have no doubt God spoke to Satan by means of angels and did not allow him into his glorious and holy presence.


Oh, so we now get to choose to ignore what's written for our "better" understanding of what the original authors really meant? Sweet. We can pretty much make Scripture say whatever we want, then. Who needs solid hermeneutic and exegetical practices when you can preform eisegesis instead?

...And since I know it's sometimes difficult to understand tone when communicating online, no, I'm not serious. I'm thoroughly disagreeing with your choice to read in a concept clearly not founded in Scripture. God appeared to Moses, a sinner. God came down to visit Adam and Eve after the Fall. God met with Abraham, He wrestled with Jacob, He stood (we assume) with Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah in the fiery furnace.

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For Holy God to be in the presence of sinful men, he must clothe himself in human flesh and nature and veil himself from the stench of polluted man.


This concept isn't found in Scripture. Unless you'd care to enlighten us further?



HardKnox -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 12:48:11 PM)

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God appeared to Moses, a sinner. God came down to visit Adam and Eve after the Fall. God met with Abraham, He wrestled with Jacob, He stood (we assume) with Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah in the fiery furnace.


And yet... John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

I don't argue scripture against scripture. Did those men see God? Yes, they saw the representations of God that wee acceptable revelations of himself. Did those men see God? No. They did not. Its impossible. Holy God does not ever himself stand int he presence of the defiled. What do you think the veil was on the tabernacle for. To keep the defiled away lest they die. No one come into his presence without blood.

So, if you want to take Satan in God's presence literally, you create the complication. God, says the prophet, "can not look upon iniquity." The ball is in your court.



HardKnox -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 12:49:25 PM)

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This concept isn't found in Scripture. Unless you'd care to enlighten us further?


Isn't it? I'll wait for a request that wants to know instead of one that has his mind made up already.



MrFribbles -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 2:47:08 PM)

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What do you think the veil was on the tabernacle for. To keep the defiled away lest they die. No one come into his presence without blood.


Yet they did come. Sinners came into God's presence. Unless you really think that blood made them entirely sinless.

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So, if you want to take Satan in God's presence literally, you create the complication. God, says the prophet, "can not look upon iniquity." The ball is in your court.


I feel you are addressing the passage in Habakkuk incorrectly. If we are to take everything in that passage as literally as you have, then Habakkuk is still alive today, as are all those who he was speaking for - v. 12. Also, God has turned us into fish and bugs - v. 14.
Habakkuk is not teaching us about God here. This is not didactic writing in the sense of, say, the book of James. Rather, Habakkuk is, like Abraham before him, asking a holy God why He hasn't (from a human perspective, anyway) administered justice.
If you have some solid basis for the belief that this phrase should be taken literally, please share it. If not, I contend you are taking this passage out of context.

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I'll wait for a request that wants to know instead of one that has his mind made up already.


I do want to know. And I believe it is your burden to demonstrate that something is biblical, not mine to assume you're right. I don't see anywhere in Scripture that suggests Christ's flesh was put on to veil His divinity from our "sinful stench."



laura... -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 2:47:15 PM)

A few incidents where sinful man was in the presence of God.
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Deut 5:24 And you said, "The LORD our God has shown us his glory and his majesty, and we have heard his voice from the fire. Today we have seen that a man can live even if God speaks with him.

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Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

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Numbers 12:4 At once the LORD said to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, "Come out to the Tent of Meeting, all three of you." So the three of them came out. 5 Then the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the Tent and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When both of them stepped forward, 6 he said, "Listen to my words:
"When a prophet of the LORD is among you,
I reveal myself to him in visions,
I speak to him in dreams.
7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
8 With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the LORD.
Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?"

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Judges 6:14 The LORD turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?"
"But Lord, " Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."
16 The LORD answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together."
17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you."
And the LORD said, "I will wait until you return."
19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.
20 The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the LORD touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the LORD disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the LORD, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face!"
23 But the LORD said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."

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Joshua 5:15 13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?"
14 "Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord have for his servant?"
15 The commander of the LORD's army replied, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.

I'm quite sure I can come up with more.



URForgiven -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 3:15:21 PM)

Is there any other truth more clearly taught in the Scriptures, than the truth of God's omnipresence? Is God confined within His creation, or is His creation confined within Him? Is there any place in all of God's creation where man can hide from His presence? Is there any place beyond God for anything to be? [;)]

Peace



laura... -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 3:45:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

Is there any other truth more clearly taught in the Scriptures, than the truth of God's omnipresence? Is God confined within His creation, or is His creation confined within Him? Is there any place in all of God's creation where man can hide from His presence? Is there any place beyond God for anything to be? [;)]

Peace


No.

Psalm 139
7Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,"
12Even the darkness is not dark to You,
And the night is as bright as the day
Darkness and light are alike to You.



Eutychus -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 4:55:31 PM)

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ORIGINAL: Bluethread

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

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There was, however, one moment in time in which there was a breech in that perfect community. It was the moment in which God "made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. "


I've heard this many times, and I don't disagree with it, but I've been wondering if there's anywhere in Scripture which explicitly states it?


I have never seen a verse to the fact. People on either side of the argument have been accusing the other of herecy for ages. The one being Adonai was still one as He was bearing our sins. The other being that He was somehow divided at that moment. I leave it as a mystery.

I would think Matthew 27:46 indicates and is the source for that:

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

It would seem that for Jesus to be forsaken means that He was alone and without the fellowship He'd always had with the Father.



HardKnox -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 6:19:27 PM)

Fribbles,

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Yet they did come. Sinners came into God's presence. Unless you really think that blood made them entirely sinless.

You missed the point. The veil. It kept them out of the Most Holy place where “God dwelled”, as it were. (Remember what God told Solomon when the Temple was built, the “heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain me.” God was in the Temple only in a figure. He himself was not there.)
The point of the blood, Frib, was that death was required to come into God’s presence. Unholy man cannot approach him. That man must die or one worthy must die in his place. No exceptions. “I will by no means clear the guilty.”
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I feel you are addressing the passage in Habakkuk incorrectly. If we are to take everything in that passage as literally as you have, then Habakkuk is still alive today, as are all those who he was speaking for - v. 12. Also, God has turned us into fish and bugs - v. 14.
Habakkuk is not teaching us about God here. This is not didactic writing in the sense of, say, the book of James. Rather, Habakkuk is, like Abraham before him, asking a holy God why He hasn't (from a human perspective, anyway) administered justice.
If you have some solid basis for the belief that this phrase should be taken literally, please share it. If not, I contend you are taking this passage out of context.

Because its written there? Does God argue the point with Habakkuk? Who’s playing with interpretation now, Frib? I don’t have to defend an explicit text.
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I do want to know. And I believe it is your burden to demonstrate that something is biblical, not mine to assume you're right. I don't see anywhere in Scripture that suggests Christ's flesh was put on to veil His divinity from our "sinful stench."

Job 9:30-33 If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean; [31] Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me. [32] For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. [33] Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.
I doubt you'll buy it, Fribble. But explicit prooftext is not the only way scripture is interpreted. We also interpret by good and necessary consequence. If we didn’t we wouldn’t believe in the Trinity or the hypostatic union of Christ’s two natures, would we. A daysman or mediator is one who is in two realities and must, therefore be part of both environments. Man, who is both flesh and spirit could stand between the physical universe and heaven, if he were still holy. The only way there can be mediator (not a type, like Moses, but a true mediator ) between God and man is if the daysman is both God and man. In Job, the issue is that no one can lay hands on him because he is defiled by sin. God will not because God is holy. No man could because all men were defiled and could not stand in God’s presence as such. The Mediator had to be both holy God and sinless man. The Man is manward, the God is Godward and the Person of God is veiled in the flesh of the Man.



HardKnox -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 7:09:48 PM)

Oh, so MrFribbles,

I take you've chosen not to pay any attention to the passage from John 1, "No man has seen God at any time"? That's just not there, right?



URForgiven -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 7:20:13 PM)

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ORIGINAL: HardKnox

Oh, so MrFribbles,

I take you've chosen not to pay any attention to the passage from John 1, "No man has seen God at any time"? That's just not there, right?


Ahem...you do know that God is invisible dontcha?

Peace



LBolt -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 7:45:57 PM)

My response to the OP...He is alive in His resurrected glorified body the one we will be receiving. I Cor. 15



Newtspeak -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 8:20:40 PM)

I find this question very interesting, as I study the scriptures I see that Jesus is just who he says he is, the son of God, He prays to his Father and to his God, he only says and does what the Father tells him to do as an obedient son who loves his Father and God with all his heart soul mind and strength. It also says in 1 Corinthians 15:28 that the son will be subject to the God, and that God will be all in all. Any thoughts on this.



HardKnox -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 8:26:31 PM)

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ORIGINAL: URForgiven

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardKnox

Oh, so MrFribbles,

I take you've chosen not to pay any attention to the passage from John 1, "No man has seen God at any time"? That's just not there, right?


Ahem...you do know that God is invisible dontcha?

Peace

That doesn't cut it. John wasn't talking about invisibility. He was talking about Presence. No man has seen God because no man has been in his presence. But Jesus, who is from the bosom of God, not only in his presence but in his exceeding presence, declares him. God has presented images or representations of himself to men that are so correct (within a limited framework) that he can call them himself. But God only presents himself to man by representation. Jesus is as close to God as we will ever get, and he is Man (and God), called the Express Image of God (Heb. 1:3)



Newtspeak -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 8:27:34 PM)

In Ephesians it says that we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world, does that make us also before Abraham? Any thoughts on this verse?



HardKnox -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 8:31:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Newtspeak

I find this question very interesting, as I study the scriptures I see that Jesus is just who he says he is, the son of God, He prays to his Father and to his God, he only says and does what the Father tells him to do as an obedient son who loves his Father and God with all his heart soul mind and strength. It also says in 1 Corinthians 15:28 that the son will be subject to the God, and that God will be all in all. Any thoughts on this.

As man, full man, Jesus worships God and God is his God. As God, The Son of God and Second Person is one with God. The Second Person is Jesus and Jesus is The Second Person of the Trinity, God and Man. That's as much as is revealed, the rest is God's.



HardKnox -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 8:33:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Newtspeak

In Ephesians it says that we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world, does that make us also before Abraham? Any thoughts on this verse?

We weren't there before the foundation of the earth. The choice was. God foreknew us and predestined us to the adoption of children.



MrFribbles -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/11/2008 8:45:49 PM)

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You missed the point. The veil. It kept them out of the Most Holy place where “God dwelled”, as it were. (Remember what God told Solomon when the Temple was built, the “heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain me.” God was in the Temple only in a figure. He himself was not there.)
The point of the blood, Frib, was that death was required to come into God’s presence.


But the fact still remains that someone who is sinful came into God's presence, death or not. So it seems clear that someone who is sinful can enter God's presence.

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Because its written there? Does God argue the point with Habakkuk? Who’s playing with interpretation now, Frib? I don’t have to defend an explicit text.


But it's not didactic! It's explicit, yes, but not in the sense of explicitly teaching facts. Many of the prophets use figurative language. You didn't address my points - is Habakkuk still alive? Does God turn people into fishmen? If everything in the passage is explicit in the manner in which you say, then these must also be true.

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I doubt you'll buy it, Fribble.


Right you are. This passage isn't speaking towards God's inability to stand human sinfulness. Consider that, at the end of Job, God does come before Job. I don't have time to offer another explanation, since I'm on my dinner break, but I assure you that it's not saying God can't stand us dirty humans.

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I take you've chosen not to pay any attention to the passage from John 1, "No man has seen God at any time"? That's just not there, right?


You didn't respond to everything I posted. If you want me to respond to something, remind me. Politeness helps, too.



DaveW -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/12/2008 9:17:49 AM)

If a pure holy God can not be in the presence of sin, and vice versa, how could God and ha-satan have a conversation in heaven? (Job 1)

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, "From where have you come?" Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it."



HardKnox -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/12/2008 10:54:21 AM)

Fribbles,
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But the fact still remains that someone who is sinful came into God's presence, death or not. So it seems clear that someone who is sinful can enter God's presence.

No. Once the death takes place, the person who comes into the “presence” (which is a figure illustrated by the fact that every Israelite except the High Priest and that once a year stayed out of the Most Holy place where “God dwelled”)— the person who comes into the “presence” is cleansed because of the sacrifice, without which they are “ceremonially unclean” and cannot come. Your treatment of the ordinance is an equivocation, arguing ontology upon a type or representation. It is impossible for sinners to literally and wholly stand in the presence of God. That is an anthropomorphism. Only God can stand in the presence of God.
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But it's not didactic! It's explicit, yes, but not in the sense of explicitly teaching facts. Many of the prophets use figurative language.

Facts are not the issue. Principle is the issue and prophetic language does not nullify priniple. You do that and you might as well rip all the prophetic and poetic books out and throw them away. They teach truth.
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You didn't address my points - is Habakkuk still alive? Does God turn people into fishmen? If everything in the passage is explicit in the manner in which you say, then these must also be true.

Non sequitur.
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Right you are. This passage isn't speaking towards God's inability to stand human sinfulness. Consider that, at the end of Job, God does come before Job.

Literally? Explain how that happened. Is God physical?
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I don't have time to offer another explanation, since I'm on my dinner break, but I assure you that it's not saying.

Your changing the meaning of the discussion. The issue is not that “God can't stand us dirty humans”. The issue is that God will not be defiled by our defilement, he’ll kill us first. The entirety of Old Covenant worship attests to this, especially as it is displayed in the wilderness. God ordered the death of anyone or anything that touched Mt. Sinai while he was on it. The laws of discharges preach the inner defilement and defiling nature of all that is within man. If God would not allow the priests to touch a leper or a dead body and enter into the tabernacle, how much more will he not touch the raw defiled? And why does his wrath break forth and kill when sin is in the camp? What would happen to the High Priest if he did not first make atonement for his own sin before entering into the Most Holy place on the Day of Atonement? Why does Isaiah place his finger over his mouth in the vision of the glory of God? Rev. 21:27 “And there shall in no wise enter into it [the gates of heaven] any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”
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Politeness helps, too.

We could both work on that, couldn’t we? Your lead into this conversation was less than polite. Generally speaking, though, I’m always amazed at how defensive people get when you start probing the full extent of human sin compared to the holiness of God. Could it be we are little to use to our own smell? We don’t like this because our opinion of ourselves is far too high and our opinions of God’s holiness is far too low correspondingly. We’re not just broken; we’re rotten to the core until the special work of grace cleanses us from our unrighteousness... and our righteousness, which is filthy rags.
So, was Jesus vexed to the soul in company with sinners? You bet he was. Isaiah 53:3
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.



MrFribbles -> RE: Did Jesus remain God in the flesh? (12/12/2008 11:59:58 AM)

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It is impossible for sinners to literally and wholly stand in the presence of God.


I disagree, and feel you still have not provided any real evidence for your claim. Again, Adam and Eve after the fall. Abraham and Jacob. Daniel's three friends in the fiery furnace (though that one is, I admit, less clear than the others). Moses (which I'll go into more detail in a bit) in Sinai, plus other times. Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus. The Holy Spirit within each of us. How do all of these situations fit into your concept?

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Facts are not the issue. Principle is the issue and prophetic language does not nullify priniple.


Obviously. I just disagree with the principle you're deriving from this text. You say that Habakkuk's claim proves God cannot, in any way, look at sin. I disagree. I believe that Habakkuk is using figurative, poetic language to illustrate the extent of God's holiness as compared to the rest of creation. It is not to the extent that God would explode if any sin snuck in to be seen by Him, though.

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Non sequitur.


Gotcha, when you take something literally, it's a foundational truth. When I do it, it's ninny-pinning. You can't pick and choose, my friend.

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Literally? Explain how that happened. Is God physical?


Well, it seems that God answered Job out of the whirlwind. The text isn't exactly clear as to what this looked like, but it is clear that Job and God had a dialogue together.

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God ordered the death of anyone or anything that touched Mt. Sinai while he was on it.


Except Moses, who was a sinner.

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I’m always amazed at how defensive people get when you start probing the full extent of human sin compared to the holiness of God. Could it be we are little to use to our own smell? We don’t like this because our opinion of ourselves is far too high and our opinions of God’s holiness is far too low correspondingly.


Or it could be that we have a higher opinion on God's grace. Yes, we're utterly sinful and detestable, unable to do anything pleasing to God on our own... And yet He still chose to die for us. He still chose to be a personal God, not the far-off Allah of Islam, or worse yet, the clockmaker of Theism. God desires to be amidst His people. That was the whole point of the Tabernacle/Temple. God could've just set Himself apart from His people, remaining in Heaven, but He didn't. He became flesh and tabernacled among us. And He didn't put on that flesh to stand the "smell." He put on that flesh to be a sacrifice, to build a way for even closer fellowship with us. So, my defensiveness streams not from humanism, but from a view of God's grace and love which is, in my opinion, lacking when God becomes too good to even look at us sinners.



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