RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo terrorist on American soil?
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 1:46:38 PM
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Milliecat
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
What is his motivation?
To give them proper trials, as the law of the land requires (in my opinion).
Specifically what law are you talking about? Do you apply the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to the entire world and those not on American soil?
Also, they should have military tribunals and not civilian courts because astute attorneys let murderers, pedophiles and other criminals out on small technicalities or loopholes.
I am not saying it is as black and white as it sound. We may not send them to American court, may be in international court or under Geneva convection a POW, but we can’t lock them up forever ( it has been over 7 years).
You can’t gloat that you are “ leader of the free world” , “ Spreading democracy’ and then lock people up just because you “ think’ they are bad people.
Um, so they were just picked up off the street for loitering? They aren't guilty of anything? They ARE bad people.
Lets try them in a military court IN Guantanamo Bay. They should not be brought into this country in case some activist judge lets them go.
I have deleted the rest of this post because I made a promise not to say certain things here anymore. I guess I forgot. Sometimes the truth is better left unsaid.
< Message edited by Milliecat -- 11/12/2008 2:46:33 PM >
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 1:49:38 PM
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cow451
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Both candidates had intentions to close Gitmo. Many of the detainees were handed over to the US for cash by warlords or militias. Over two-thirds have been released and 60 of the remaining 250 are eligible to be released to other countries.
There has been maybe one trial in the five years of this process. In WWII we had thousands of enemy POW's encamped in the US, so this is not a precedent. The bad guys are actually better secured here than in any other location. Gitmo has been a wonderful recruiting tool for al Q and the like. I'm withholding judgement pending details about the trial process.
Since 2002, more than 520 detainees have departed Guantanamo for other countries including Albania, Algeria, Afghanistan, Australia, Bangladesh, Bahrain, Belgium, Denmark, Egypt, France, Great Britain, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, Maldives, Mauritania, Morocco, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sweden, Sudan, Tajikistan, Turkey, Uganda, United Kingdom and Yemen. There are approximately 250 detainees currently at Guantanamo.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 1:52:12 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3462
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Hey cow, I hope you are feeling better since hospital stay. I have prayed for you. Know, these are a different sort of enemy. They are willing to die for there cause, they are not even the same as domestic terrorist. I hope to the good Lord they do not close Gitmo.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Both candidates had intentions to close Gitmo. Many of the detainees were handed over to the US for cash by warlords or militias. Over two-thirds have been released and 60 of the remaining 250 are eligible to be released to other countries.
There has been maybe one trial in the five years of this process. In WWII we had thousands of enemy POW's encamped in the US, so this is not a precedent. The bad guys are actually better secured here than in any other location. Gitmo has been a wonderful recruiting tool for al Q and the like. I'm withholding judgement pending details about the trial process.
Since 2002, more than 520 detainees have departed Guantanamo for other countries including Albania, Algeria, Afghanistan, Australia, Bangladesh, Bahrain, Belgium, Denmark, Egypt, France, Great Britain, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, Maldives, Mauritania, Morocco, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sweden, Sudan, Tajikistan, Turkey, Uganda, United Kingdom and Yemen. There are approximately 250 detainees currently at Guantanamo.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 1:56:31 PM
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lightshineon
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Cow why would you say they are better secured on American soil?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 1:58:54 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3951
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Cow why would you say they are better secured on American soil?
Because we have them under our security, not having to rely on any other country. And they are certainly no more dangerous than most of the lifers in a supermax prison.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 1:59:54 PM
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ta_mosquito
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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Moved from Election 2008 to Current Events.
Thanks!
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 2:10:13 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7605
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Because we have them under our security, not having to rely on any other country. And they are certainly no more dangerous than most of the lifers in a supermax prison.
Actually, GITMO is under our jurusdiction, so they are under our security, and there they are safe from one of America's most pernicious enemies; meddling leftist lawyers.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 2:18:13 PM
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TheosCentric
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A majority of the Gitmo prisoners have most likely not done anything wrong, either.
A trial is necessary to prove that out.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 2:19:41 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7605
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quote:
A majority of the Gitmo prisoners have most likely not done anything wrong, either.
A trial is necessary to prove that out.
And you would know this how?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 2:21:09 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1021
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From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Milliecat
Um, so they were just picked up off the street for loitering? They aren't guilty of anything?
No, they are not guilty of anything. Because to be found guilty of something, there has to be a trial. Only the Red Queen and the Bush Administration think that the sentence should come before the verdict.
quote:
They ARE bad people.
Very likely, but we don't lock people up indefinitely for being bad, we lock them up when they have been convicted of a crime.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 2:27:28 PM
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phreddy
Posts: 286
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: Milliecat
Um, so they were just picked up off the street for loitering? They aren't guilty of anything?
No, they are not guilty of anything. Because to be found guilty of something, there has to be a trial. Only the Red Queen and the Bush Administration think that the sentence should come before the verdict.
quote:
They ARE bad people.
Very likely, but we don't lock people up indefinitely for being bad, we lock them up when they have been convicted of a crime.
Actually, during war we lock them up for fighitng against us.
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 3:10:47 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7605
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
No, they are not guilty of anything. Because to be found guilty of something, there has to be a trial. Only the Red Queen and the Bush Administration think that the sentence should come before the verdict.
Well, that and every administration who has overseen a war in our nations history.
It needs to be reiterated (repeatedly, apparently) we have never, nor should we ever, be expected to bring combatants apprehended in war zones to an American style courtroom trial.
It's absurd to expect this.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 3:23:44 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1021
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phreddy
Actually, during war we lock them up for fighitng against us.
Then they are soldiers and are covered by the Geneva Convention.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 3:35:37 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3951
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
No, they are not guilty of anything. Because to be found guilty of something, there has to be a trial. Only the Red Queen and the Bush Administration think that the sentence should come before the verdict.
Well, that and every administration who has overseen a war in our nations history.
It needs to be reiterated (repeatedly, apparently) we have never, nor should we ever, be expected to bring combatants apprehended in war zones to an American style courtroom trial.
It's absurd to expect this.
That would be a great argument if we ever DECLARE war. That's part of this mess is getting into shooting it out with enemy combatants that we aren't really at war with technically because we are just fighting wars in Iraq and afghanistan that aren't really wars because then we'd have to declare detainees POW's and then there'd be rules and international scrutiny and war crimes tribunals and rules and we couldn't invent stuff as we go because we'd have to explain why omar is being detained after being turned over by a rival militia for cash.
So, both McCain (who was a POW, BTW) and Obama pldged to shut down GITMO.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 3:38:41 PM
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catfighter
Posts: 102
Joined: 10/17/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
We are stupid to let this man destroy us. We are just like dumb sheep led to the slaughter, while people dance in the streets for this man. He will also destroy our economy, that is his goal, IMHO.
We do it because we are better then the people we are fighting. Because we are the honorable and just people we wish the Islamic world would emulate.
Honorable and just people do not throw people into prison indefinitely without due process.
If being honorable and just puts us at some additional risk, then so be it.
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 3:55:31 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7605
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
That would be a great argument if we ever DECLARE war. That's part of this mess is getting into shooting it out with enemy combatants that we aren't really at war with technically because we are just fighting wars in Iraq and afghanistan that aren't really wars because then we'd have to declare detainees POW's and then there'd be rules and international scrutiny and war crimes tribunals and rules and we couldn't invent stuff as we go because we'd have to explain why omar is being detained after being turned over by a rival militia for cash.
So, both McCain (who was a POW, BTW) and Obama pldged to shut down GITMO.
While I think our declarations of war, such as they were, were more vague that we normally expect or desire, the reality is Al Qaeda does not represent a governmental entity against which we might normally make such declarations. It is in fact a multi-national terrorist agent; I would think it unwise that we would declare war against every country from which it is composed.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 4:17:13 PM
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Rockwall
Posts: 465
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: phreddy
Actually, during war we lock them up for fighitng against us.
Then they are soldiers and are covered by the Geneva Convention.
Doesn't the Geneva Convention only cover UNIFORMED soldiers of a government, therefore these Islamo-fascist would NOT be covered?
_____________________________
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 4:27:04 PM
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Rockwall
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From: Texas
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By the way, I know most Americans forgot about 9/11 and Islamo-fascists because they voted for Obama (that was like 50 years ago or something wasn't it?). But many other Americans don't want to wait until we get hit again before we think about national security again.
For those who haven't fell asleep or aren't numb to hearing about people who despise Americans, here are two sites I still go to: Stop Honor Kilings LINK and Jihad Watch LINK
_____________________________
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 4:48:47 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2035
Joined: 2/26/2006
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Rockwall,
You believe all the email forwards that come through that are verified as false by snopes?
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 4:55:48 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1021
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: phreddy
Actually, during war we lock them up for fighitng against us.
Then they are soldiers and are covered by the Geneva Convention.
Doesn't the Geneva Convention only cover UNIFORMED soldiers of a government, therefore these Islamo-fascist would NOT be covered?
Then they are not soldiers and should be tried as criminals.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 5:32:36 PM
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phreddy
Posts: 286
Joined: 3/28/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: phreddy
Actually, during war we lock them up for fighitng against us.
Then they are soldiers and are covered by the Geneva Convention.
What parts of the Geneva convention are we not following in regards to Gitmo? I read it and I can't find any.
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