You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (Full Version)

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IMA_CHRISTIAN -> You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 12:40:26 PM)

I was listening to someone who is very passionately AGAINST abortions. You know Obama is pro-abortion. now, if you vote for obama because you like everything about him in spite of that one issue that you must accept along with his other good qualities. but no, all those other good qualities are ignored, coz all your doing is voting for a baby killer. thats according to this one lady. I cant agree and i think that is an unfair burden to put upon me. Obama is not out there killing babies!!!! but no, some christians think that way. and putting fear into me that im going to like dammed to hell for voting obama because of that one stupid abortion issue!.

this election seems to make the two candidates one or two issues. But I dont think its fair that i have to vote for an angry old man mccain, just so that I wont have the blame put on me that now im somehow going to be blamed for abortions just coz i voted for obama.

its as if I am being blamed for all the alcoholics in the world if I buy groceries at a store that also sells alcohol even though i just am buying food items.

Now if voting for obama makes me responsible for all the abortions in the world, now im scared into voting for that crabby ol mccain.

is that really fair?

hey if i wanted to stop abortions, i would be out there protesting and shutting down abortion clinics. but im not even doing that. so now voting for obama is going to automatically make me responsible for all the abortions in the world?????????????

is that fair of that person to even put that on me?



Jhud -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 12:50:56 PM)

I am not so sure if how difficult this is to figure out.

If one was a voter in the 1800's and the candidate in question says, "If elected, I will do eveything in my power to insure states maintain the right to keep slaves" and then one goes on and votes for that candidate, then one is in part responsible for the ongoing existence of slavery. The same holds true for abortion.

I mean if the voters who elect candidates aren't at least partially responsible for what those candidates do (or what they are able to do), when they have made what they will do clear, who then is responsible?



adelphi_sky -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:02:01 PM)

So let me understand this. What you're saying is, if a vote for someone allows certain freedoms of choice, then those who vote are responsible for the choices other people make? Hmmmm. Not sure that's found in the bible. I though each man was responsible for his own sin. Let's see. That means those who voted for politicians back in the prohibition days are responsible for alcoholism and drunk driving. Those who voted for politicians who somehow favored tobacco are responsible for those dying of luncg cancer. Those who voted for politicians on the right to bear arms are responsible for murders and even accidents involving guns. I can go on and on. The point is, individuals make their own choices. God gave us each a free will to choose. God didn't force us to love Him. He allowed us to choose to love Him. People are against socialism, yet they want to government to make our choices for us. Why not ban guns? They kill people just as much as abortions do? We as Christians should be reaching out to those people who are capable of making choices we don't agree with. Forcing them to choose is not God's will, and neither should it be ours.



Zhi -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:07:13 PM)

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke

There is good and bad in all politicians. Take, for instance, the president who took his country's economy, which was in total shambles, fixed it, virtually eliminated unemployment, and turned his country into a world power. He built massive quantities of infrastructure for his country. He hosted the Olympics. But, the fact that he funded the development of key scientific achievements like the jet plane and practical rockets does not mean that voting for Hitler was a good idea overall.

Now, yes, that's an extreme example. But, it's always about priorities. If you truly believe that abortion is murder, then supporting someone who is demonstrably in favor of continuing the practice full-steam simply because you think they might be good for the economy or they want to give you money would probably seem morally wrong to most people.



StephK -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:19:01 PM)

He has said that he will appoint Supreme Court judges like Ginsberg who is 100% pro-choice. Take it for what you want. Stacking the courts with more Ginsberg's would not be good on more than one issue since she looks to the opinions of the international courts to decide issues.

quote:

OBAMA ON JUDGES, SUPREME COURT

Speaking at the Planned Parenthood conference in DC this afternoon, Barack Obama leveled harsh words at conservative Supreme Court justices, and he offered his own intention to appoint justices with "empathy." Obama hinted that the court's recent decision in Gonzales v. Carhart -- which upheld a ban on partial-birth abortion -- was part of "a concerted effort to steadily roll back" access to abortions. And he ridiculed Justice Anthony Kennedy, who wrote that case's majority opinion. "Justice Kennedy knows many things," he declared, "but my understanding is that he does not know how to be a doctor."



Jhud -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:26:00 PM)

quote:

So let me understand this. What you're saying is, if a vote for someone allows certain freedoms of choice, then those who vote are responsible for the choices other people make? Hmmmm. Not sure that's found in the bible. I though each man was responsible for his own sin. Let's see. That means those who voted for politicians back in the prohibition days are responsible for alcoholism and drunk driving. Those who voted for politicians who somehow favored tobacco are responsible for those dying of luncg cancer. Those who voted for politicians on the right to bear arms are responsible for murders and even accidents involving guns. I can go on and on. The point is, individuals make their own choices. God gave us each a free will to choose. God didn't force us to love Him. He allowed us to choose to love Him. People are against socialism, yet they want to government to make our choices for us. Why not ban guns? They kill people just as much as abortions do? We as Christians should be reaching out to those people who are capable of making choices we don't agree with. Forcing them to choose is not God's will, and neither should it be ours.


So you don't think politicians who voted to allow slavery to continue in the southern states were in part responsible for slavery?

Or to take your logic even further - as no law actually stops certain human behaviors from occuring all together (theft, rape, murder, etc) would it then follow that such laws are unimportant? And if a politician advocated a law that would legalize theft, or rape, or murder, wouldn't that politician (and the people who voted for him knowing his stance) be partially responsible for the rise in such activities?

Or is it your opinion that laws are useless all together, and we should simply not have a government?



CCCdnt -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:29:32 PM)

Like Jhud, I really do not see how this is so difficult to realize. A person that votes for a pro-abortion presidential candidate may himself be against abortions, but by casting a vote for the pro-abortion presidential candidate, the voter is at the very least giving support for abortions. If in addition to abortions, Obama also supported making legal the “termination” of disabled infants (pick any age cut-off for this example), I wonder then how many Christians would still support him.



mapachito13 -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:33:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

I am not so sure if how difficult this is to figure out.

If one was a voter in the 1800's and the candidate in question says, "If elected, I will do eveything in my power to insure states maintain the right to keep slaves" and then one goes on and votes for that candidate, then one is in part responsible for the ongoing existence of slavery. The same holds true for abortion.

I mean if the voters who elect candidates aren't at least partially responsible for what those candidates do (or what they are able to do), when they have made what they will do clear, who then is responsible?


Republicans then are just as complicit by that logic for they have done nothing to try to overturn Roe v. Wade!



StephK -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:36:02 PM)

Actually many Republicans have worked on getting the abortion laws overturned but they have just about all been deemed unconstitutional by the SCOTUS. It's the judges!



SovereignIsHe -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:37:01 PM)

quote:


ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky

So let me understand this. What you're saying is, if a vote for someone allows certain freedoms of choice, then those who vote are responsible for the choices other people make? Hmmmm. Not sure that's found in the bible.


The bible says anything not done in faith is a sin... If anyone can make a case for supporting the right and or choice to murder the unborn under the ever expanding umbrella of Christian liberty I'd like to see it...


quote:


I though each man was responsible for his own sin.


Supporting the "right" to unjustly take life is murder... All those who called for Christ death and letting the known criminal go free were guilty as Pilate for issuing the order... Christ said to hate a brother without cause is liken to murder so how can supporting murder not be liken to it?


quote:

Let's see. That means those who voted for politicians back in the prohibition days are responsible for alcoholism and drunk driving.


Since having a drink isn't sinful, but being a drunk is alcohol isn't the issue....

quote:

Those who voted for politicians on the right to bear arms are responsible for murders and even accidents involving guns.


Since the right is guaranteed by the Constitution no politicans is really on the hook... Not to mention the ability and means to defend oneself is a biblical precept.

quote:


I can go on and on.


With failed analogies...


quote:


The point is, individuals make their own choices. God gave us each a free will to choose.


Yes, and with choices come consequences...

quote:

God didn't force us to love Him. He allowed us to choose to love Him.


Yet He has to change out heart in order that we can...

quote:

People are against socialism, yet they want to government to make our choices for us.


It about the government living up to it's ordained purpose spelled out in Romans 13... It's there by God's decree for the sake of order... And it's to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil, which means when it sanctions evil it's wrong...


quote:

Why not ban guns? They kill people just as much as abortions do?


Guns don't kill 3500 people in this country daily....


quote:


We as Christians should be reaching out to those people who are capable of making choices we don't agree with.


How can we reach out to them while supporting what we know is wrong? The mixed message will not convert anyone...

quote:


Forcing them to choose is not God's will, and neither should it be ours.


Debatable... God told Moses to tell the folks to make a choice... Those who didn't choose God were put to the sword by the thousands... Exodus 32... So your statement isn't absolute...



adelphi_sky -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:37:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

So let me understand this. What you're saying is, if a vote for someone allows certain freedoms of choice, then those who vote are responsible for the choices other people make? Hmmmm. Not sure that's found in the bible. I though each man was responsible for his own sin. Let's see. That means those who voted for politicians back in the prohibition days are responsible for alcoholism and drunk driving. Those who voted for politicians who somehow favored tobacco are responsible for those dying of luncg cancer. Those who voted for politicians on the right to bear arms are responsible for murders and even accidents involving guns. I can go on and on. The point is, individuals make their own choices. God gave us each a free will to choose. God didn't force us to love Him. He allowed us to choose to love Him. People are against socialism, yet they want to government to make our choices for us. Why not ban guns? They kill people just as much as abortions do? We as Christians should be reaching out to those people who are capable of making choices we don't agree with. Forcing them to choose is not God's will, and neither should it be ours.


So you don't think politicians who voted to allow slavery to continue in the southern states were in part responsible for slavery?

Or to take your logic even further - as no law actually stops certain human behaviors from occuring all together (theft, rape, murder, etc) would it then follow that such laws are unimportant? And if a politician advocated a law that would legalize theft, or rape, or murder, wouldn't that politician (and the people who voted for him knowing his stance) be partially responsible for the rise in such activities?

Or is it your opinion that laws are useless all together, and we should simply not have a government?


Just because a law allows something doesn't mean you have to participate. There are laws that indirectly provide freedoms for bad choices. This is a free country. I'm sure there weren't laws that forced people to purchase slaves. There were people who couldn't afford slaves. They weren't arrested. We have the freedom to choose to participate in things we feel are good or bad. But should I be responsible for the choice of someone to shot someone in the back with a gun when I feel gun ownership is a right? Of course not. Anymore than I should be blamed for someone in the south owning slaves because I voted for someone who allowed it to happen. In a free society, there is always going to be room for free choice to go against the beliefs of someone else. You can't get around it. The only way you can get around it is to have a theocratic dictatorship with no freedom of choice.



Jhud -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:41:34 PM)

quote:

Republicans then are just as complicit by that logic for they have done nothing to try to overturn Roe v. Wade!


Please explain your understanding of what it would take to overturn Roe vs. Wade, and then explain what more Republicans might do?



SovereignIsHe -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:42:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

I am not so sure if how difficult this is to figure out.

If one was a voter in the 1800's and the candidate in question says, "If elected, I will do eveything in my power to insure states maintain the right to keep slaves" and then one goes on and votes for that candidate, then one is in part responsible for the ongoing existence of slavery. The same holds true for abortion.

I mean if the voters who elect candidates aren't at least partially responsible for what those candidates do (or what they are able to do), when they have made what they will do clear, who then is responsible?


Republicans then are just as complicit by that logic for they have done nothing to try to overturn Roe v. Wade!



Last I checked Henry Hyde was still a Republican.... And not all of the judges appointed by Republican President turned out to be closet supporters of abortion...



Jhud -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:42:40 PM)

quote:

Just because a law allows something doesn't mean you have to participate. There are laws that indirectly provide freedoms for bad choices. This is a free country. I'm sure there weren't laws that forced people to purchase slaves. There were people who couldn't afford slaves. They weren't arrested. We have the freedom to choose to participate in things we feel are good or bad. But should I be responsible for the choice of someone to shot someone in the back with a gun when I feel gun ownership is a right? Of course not. Anymore than I should be blamed for someone in the south owning slaves because I voted for someone who allowed it to happen. In a free society, there is always going to be room for free choice to go against the beliefs of someone else. You can't get around it. The only way you can get around it is to have a theocratic dictatorship with no freedom of choice.


So you would have opposed outlawing slavery?



ayani -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:45:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

I am not so sure if how difficult this is to figure out.

If one was a voter in the 1800's and the candidate in question says, "If elected, I will do eveything in my power to insure states maintain the right to keep slaves" and then one goes on and votes for that candidate, then one is in part responsible for the ongoing existence of slavery. The same holds true for abortion.

I mean if the voters who elect candidates aren't at least partially responsible for what those candidates do (or what they are able to do), when they have made what they will do clear, who then is responsible?


quote:

ORIGINAL: AdelphiSky

So let me understand this. What you're saying is, if a vote for someone allows certain freedoms of choice, then those who vote are responsible for the choices other people make? Hmmmm. Not sure that's found in the bible. I though each man was responsible for his own sin. Let's see. That means those who voted for politicians back in the prohibition days are responsible for alcoholism and drunk driving. Those who voted for politicians who somehow favored tobacco are responsible for those dying of luncg cancer. Those who voted for politicians on the right to bear arms are responsible for murders and even accidents involving guns. I can go on and on. The point is, individuals make their own choices. God gave us each a free will to choose. God didn't force us to love Him. He allowed us to choose to love Him. People are against socialism, yet they want to government to make our choices for us. Why not ban guns? They kill people just as much as abortions do? We as Christians should be reaching out to those people who are capable of making choices we don't agree with. Forcing them to choose is not God's will, and neither should it be ours.


You both make really excellent points. This is why the Abortion issue is so difficult, and I find I really struggle with it.

I'm no longer comfortable with an 'inherited' view on the issue, and have decided I have an obligation to try and get more educated on the issue from an ethical and theological perspective.



Zhi -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:52:11 PM)

I would point out that owning a gun is not illegal, but shooting someone with it (other than self defense or during sanctioned armed combat) most certainly is.

If we're going to talk about having something that has the capacity to kill someone, then cars are far, far more important to ban than guns, as cars kill far more people every year than guns do.

And, knives can kill people. And, really sharp sticks can kill people. And, rocks can kill people. And, when all those get banned, you can still strangle someone with your bare hands.

Therefore, we just ban murder and have done with it.

Abortion is killing someone. Having a gun is not killing someone. It gives you the capacity to possibly kill someone, but so does picking up a rock, or a knife, or getting in a car, or picking up a pointy stick, or just... having hands.

To equate the two is ridiculous.



SuspenseWriter -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:54:32 PM)

It boils down to this: men have forgotten what honor is. Honor says a man will face up to his adversary and tell him, "You're against what God is for, and for what God is against. So although I know it won't matter in the end, that your unrighteousness will prevail, I'll still stand against you, until I fall."

We all know by now abortion will never be overturned in this country; too many people--especially CINOs--love it too much, and it's too late. So does that mean because I'm on the losing end of this fight, I'll cave in and vote for monsters? Never. It simply means I'll stand my ground to the last, and get my approval from the only One who really matters.

Okay. Flame away.



cow451 -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 1:58:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter

It boils down to this: men have forgotten what honor is. Honor says a man will face up to his adversary and tell him, "You're against what God is for, and for what God is against. So although I know it won't matter in the end, that your unrighteousness will prevail, I'll still stand against you, until I fall."

We all know by now abortion will never be overturned in this country; too many people--especially CINOs--love it too much, and it's too late. So does that mean because I'm on the losing end of this fight, I'll cave in and vote for monsters? Never. It simply means I'll stand my ground to the last, and get my approval from the only One who really matters.

Okay. Flame away.

So all of us that votede for Bush in 2000 are responsible for every abortion that has taken place since he hasn't done anything substantive about it. We are also responsible for those gay couples that got married, and every casualty in Iraq and every bad hot dog sold at every Nationals' game. Gimmeabreak.



Jhud -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 2:03:28 PM)

quote:

So all of us that votede for Bush in 2000 are responsible for every abortion that has taken place since he hasn't done anything substantive about it. We are also responsible for those gay couples that got married, and every casualty in Iraq and every bad hot dog sold at every Nationals' game. Gimmeabreak.


You personally are responsible for the current mortagage crisis for selling that over-priced trailer house in 2005, whomever you voted for. And we won't forget it.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 2:08:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky

Just because a law allows something doesn't mean you have to participate.


Supporting unjust laws is participation...

quote:


There are laws that indirectly provide freedoms for bad choices. This is a free country. I'm sure there weren't laws that forced people to purchase slaves. There were people who couldn't afford slaves. They weren't arrested. We have the freedom to choose to participate in things we feel are good or bad. But should I be responsible for the choice of someone to shot someone in the back with a gun when I feel gun ownership is a right? Of course not. Anymore than I should be blamed for someone in the south owning slaves because I voted for someone who allowed it to happen. In a free society, there is always going to be room for free choice to go against the beliefs of someone else. You can't get around it. The only way you can get around it is to have a theocratic dictatorship with no freedom of choice.



It's truly sad for anyone to think one must have a theocratic dictatorship in order for the right to murder unborn children to be in place... If that's truly the case isn't that cause to remove the law regarding murder outside the womb? It's just another bad choice, right?



SovereignIsHe -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 2:10:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

I would point out that owning a gun is not illegal, but shooting someone with it (other than self defense or during sanctioned armed combat) most certainly is.

If we're going to talk about having something that has the capacity to kill someone, then cars are far, far more important to ban than guns, as cars kill far more people every year than guns do.

And, knives can kill people. And, really sharp sticks can kill people. And, rocks can kill people. And, when all those get banned, you can still strangle someone with your bare hands.

Therefore, we just ban murder and have done with it.

Abortion is killing someone. Having a gun is not killing someone. It gives you the capacity to possibly kill someone, but so does picking up a rock, or a knife, or getting in a car, or picking up a pointy stick, or just... having hands.

To equate the two is ridiculous.


Charles Manson killed people exercising his 1st Amendments rights...



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 2:40:19 PM)

OK OK i want to know this -

if i vote for obama, then is God gonna hold ME personally responsible for continued abortions in this country?

and on that logic, if I vote for mccain and the abortion laws are NOT overturned, then what does that make me? a baby killer since mccain will not have overturned the laws either.

Either way, the abortion issue is gonna be there, its going on RIGHT NOW. no one is destroying abortion clinics. no matter who i vote for, abortion is going to continue. i know you hate it, but its a factoid of life.. unfortunately.

ok unless you destroy an abortion clinic, that must mean that you, Christian, support that clinic being up there doing business every day.

see how that is skewed logic? i dont think its fair for me to burden that. if i want to stop abortion, i'll just destroy all the abortion clinics in the nation. but im not. so i guess im already a baby killer by the fact that i just sit here and do nothing about it.

oh taking THAT logic, does that mean a vote for mccain means your off the hook for abortions, coz you voted for a guy that claims he is anti-abortion? you think that will get YOU off the hook?

I dont think so.

You are just as much at fault just wishin and hopin it will go away as i am when i vote for obama, if i do decide to vote for him. I better not admit it or else you will hunt me down and do something bad to me.



Jhud -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 2:43:48 PM)

quote:

OK OK i want to know this -

if i vote for obama, then is God gonna hold ME personally responsible for continued abortions in this country?

and on that logic, if I vote for mccain and the abortion laws are NOT overturned, then what does that make me? a baby killer since mccain will not have overturned the laws either.

Either way, the abortion issue is gonna be there, its going on RIGHT NOW. no one is destroying abortion clinics. no matter who i vote for, abortion is going to continue. i know you hate it, but its a factoid of life.. unfortunately.

ok unless you destroy an abortion clinic, that must mean that you, Christian, support that clinic being up there doing business every day.

see how that is skewed logic? i dont think its fair for me to burden that. if i want to stop abortion, i'll just destroy all the abortion clinics in the nation. but im not. so i guess im already a baby killer by the fact that i just sit here and do nothing about it.

oh taking THAT logic, does that mean a vote for mccain means your off the hook for abortions, coz you voted for a guy that claims he is anti-abortion? you think that will get YOU off the hook?

I dont think so.

You are just as much at fault just wishin and hopin it will go away as i am when i vote for obama, if i do decide to vote for him. I better not admit it or else you will hunt me down and do something bad to me.


I think it is pretty skewed logic, much as it would be if one claimed that unless one personally went out and shot slaveowners, one had no responsibility as a Christian to vote against slavery.

But if you do want to do something, I highly reccomend you volunteer a pro-life crisis pregnancy center.



Zhi -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 2:59:30 PM)

Well, you might as well say that since there will still be unsaved people, we shouldn't bother witnessing.

It's always a journey, an effort. I think God will credit us for efforts on the part of the unborn, rather than condemning us for not working "fast enough". We *know* it's going to be a slow process, it takes a long time to change supreme court justices, which is the institution that created this mess in the first place. The important part is to keep trying, whether it's locally, helping with crisis pregnancy centers, or nationally, voting for congresspeople (who could make laws to help) and presidents (who appoint the supreme court justices) who are pro-life.

Bush DID make progress. He signed the Partial Birth Abortion Ban. He denied government funds to agencies that provide abortions. He declared "National Sanctity of Life Day" to remind people what's going on. I didn't get this (severely shortened) list from a pro-life site either... I got it from a very angry pro-choice site. Is it everything a pro-lifer could have hoped for? No, but it IS progress.



cow451 -> RE: You Vote Obama - You are now responsible for every abortion happening, or so they say (10/2/2008 3:12:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

Well, you might as well say that since there will still be unsaved people, we shouldn't bother witnessing.

It's always a journey, an effort. I think God will credit us for efforts on the part of the unborn, rather than condemning us for not working "fast enough". We *know* it's going to be a slow process, it takes a long time to change supreme court justices, which is the institution that created this mess in the first place. The important part is to keep trying, whether it's locally, helping with crisis pregnancy centers, or nationally, voting for congresspeople (who could make laws to help) and presidents (who appoint the supreme court justices) who are pro-life.

Bush DID make progress. He signed the Partial Birth Abortion Ban. He denied government funds to agencies that provide abortions. He declared "National Sanctity of Life Day" to remind people what's going on. I didn't get this (severely shortened) list from a pro-life site either... I got it from a very angry pro-choice site. Is it everything a pro-lifer could have hoped for? No, but it IS progress.


Please let him know how heroic he has been.



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