quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

Well, you DID ask about substantive progress. So I gave examples. *shrug*

quote:

Bush DID make progress. He signed the Partial Birth Abortion Ban. He denied government funds to agencies that provide abortions. He declared "National Sanctity of Life Day" to remind people what's going on. I didn't get this (severely shortened) list from a pro-life site either... I got it from a very angry pro-choice site. Is it everything a pro-lifer could have hoped for? No, but it IS progress.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN

OK OK i want to know this -

if i vote for obama, then is God gonna hold ME personally responsible for continued abortions in this country?

and on that logic, if I vote for mccain and the abortion laws are NOT overturned, then what does that make me? a baby killer since mccain will not have overturned the laws either.

Either way, the abortion issue is gonna be there, its going on RIGHT NOW. no one is destroying abortion clinics. no matter who i vote for, abortion is going to continue. i know you hate it, but its a factoid of life.. unfortunately.

ok unless you destroy an abortion clinic, that must mean that you, Christian, support that clinic being up there doing business every day.

see how that is skewed logic? i dont think its fair for me to burden that. if i want to stop abortion, i'll just destroy all the abortion clinics in the nation. but im not. so i guess im already a baby killer by the fact that i just sit here and do nothing about it.

oh taking THAT logic, does that mean a vote for mccain means your off the hook for abortions, coz you voted for a guy that claims he is anti-abortion? you think that will get YOU off the hook?

I dont think so.

You are just as much at fault just wishin and hopin it will go away as i am when i vote for obama, if i do decide to vote for him. I better not admit it or else you will hunt me down and do something bad to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

Well, you DID ask about substantive progress. So I gave examples. *shrug*

Our definition of "substantive" differs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN

does mccain have plans to insert some supreme court judges who are anti-abortion and/or can work to overturn roe v wade?

what if you vote for mccain and nothing as to this issue changes? if thats the ONLY reason your voting for him.. (that and the gay rights thing but thats another topic!)

with our economy down the terlet, the horrible war going on, people losing houses, etc. i dont want another 8 years of this!

quote:

ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN

does mccain have plans to insert some supreme court judges who are anti-abortion and/or can work to overturn roe v wade?

what if you vote for mccain and nothing as to this issue changes? if thats the ONLY reason your voting for him.. (that and the gay rights thing but thats another topic!)

with our economy down the terlet, the horrible war going on, people losing houses, etc. i dont want another 8 years of this!

quote:

ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN

I was listening to someone who is very passionately AGAINST abortions. You know Obama is pro-abortion. now, if you vote for obama because you like everything about him in spite of that one issue that you must accept along with his other good qualities. but no, all those other good qualities are ignored, coz all your doing is voting for a baby killer. thats according to this one lady. I cant agree and i think that is an unfair burden to put upon me. Obama is not out there killing babies!!!! but no, some christians think that way. and putting fear into me that im going to like dammed to hell for voting obama because of that one stupid abortion issue!.

this election seems to make the two candidates one or two issues. But I dont think its fair that i have to vote for an angry old man mccain, just so that I wont have the blame put on me that now im somehow going to be blamed for abortions just coz i voted for obama.

its as if I am being blamed for all the alcoholics in the world if I buy groceries at a store that also sells alcohol even though i just am buying food items.

Now if voting for obama makes me responsible for all the abortions in the world, now im scared into voting for that crabby ol mccain.

is that really fair?

hey if i wanted to stop abortions, i would be out there protesting and shutting down abortion clinics. but im not even doing that. so now voting for obama is going to automatically make me responsible for all the abortions in the world?????????????

is that fair of that person to even put that on me?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

I am not so sure if how difficult this is to figure out.

If one was a voter in the 1800's and the candidate in question says, "If elected, I will do eveything in my power to insure states maintain the right to keep slaves" and then one goes on and votes for that candidate, then one is in part responsible for the ongoing existence of slavery. The same holds true for abortion.

I mean if the voters who elect candidates aren't at least partially responsible for what those candidates do (or what they are able to do), when they have made what they will do clear, who then is responsible?

quote:

ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky

So let me understand this. What you're saying is, if a vote for someone allows certain freedoms of choice, then those who vote are responsible for the choices other people make? Hmmmm. Not sure that's found in the bible. I though each man was responsible for his own sin. Let's see. That means those who voted for politicians back in the prohibition days are responsible for alcoholism and drunk driving. Those who voted for politicians who somehow favored tobacco are responsible for those dying of luncg cancer. Those who voted for politicians on the right to bear arms are responsible for murders and even accidents involving guns. I can go on and on. The point is, individuals make their own choices. God gave us each a free will to choose. God didn't force us to love Him. He allowed us to choose to love Him. People are against socialism, yet they want to government to make our choices for us. Why not ban guns? They kill people just as much as abortions do? We as Christians should be reaching out to those people who are capable of making choices we don't agree with. Forcing them to choose is not God's will, and neither should it be ours.

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ORIGINAL: ljmac

Abortion Democrats are little different than slavery Democrats. Both thrive on the prospect of abusing their fellow man. Both deny the humanity of their victims. Both rely on the courts for their dirty business. Both were opposed by Republicans.

Barak Obama and Stephen Douglass, Democrats and men of choice.
John McCain and Abraham Lincoln, Republicans and men of freedom.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

I'm not sure what you mean by "NONE of your fears come true". Our fears are coming true every day. Things have gotten better under Bush, but there are still millions of babies being killed. So, "nothing" happening is precisely what we fear. Reversal of the progress made under Bush is just more feared.

I don't think Obama is the antichrist. But, I do believe that abortion is anti Christ, and anti God in general. As such, I cannot vote for someone who supports it. Especially someone who supports it so enthusiastically (from his record) as Obama.

quote:

all the fears about him making abortion worse ,, may not come true.

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK

Senator Biden said the following during the 10/2/08 VP Debate:

And it didn't take me long -- it was hard to change, but it didn't take me long, but it took about five years for me to realize that the ideology of that judge makes a big difference. That's why I led the fight against Judge Bork. Had he been on the court, I suspect there would be a lot of changes that I don't like and the American people wouldn't like, including everything from Roe v. Wade to issues relating to civil rights and civil liberties.


Just using Biden's own words where who we vote for has long term ramifications on this issue. Bork was a strict constructionist judge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK

quote:

all the fears about him making abortion worse ,, may not come true.

From the Horse's Mouth:


Obama Statement on 35th Anniversary of Roe v. Wade Decision
Chicago, IL | January 22, 2008

Chicago, IL -- Senator Barack Obama today released the following statement on the 35th anniversary of the Roe v. Wade decision.

"Thirty-five years after the Supreme Court decided Roe v. Wade, it's never been more important to protect a woman's right to choose. Last year, the Supreme Court decided by a vote of 5-4 to uphold the Federal Abortion Ban, and in doing so undermined an important principle of Roe v. Wade: that we must always protect women's health. With one more vacancy on the Supreme Court, we could be looking at a majority hostile to a women's fundamental right to choose for the first time since Roe v. Wade. The next president may be asked to nominate that Supreme Court justice. That is what is at stake in this election.

"Throughout my career, I've been a consistent and strong supporter of reproductive justice, and have consistently had a 100% pro-choice rating with Planned Parenthood and NARAL Pro-Choice America.

"When South Dakota passed a law banning all abortions in a direct effort to have Roe overruled, I was the only candidate for President to raise money to help the citizens of South Dakota repeal that law. When anti-choice protesters blocked the opening of an Illinois Planned Parenthood clinic in a community where affordable health care is in short supply, I was the only candidate for President who spoke out against it. And I will continue to defend this right by passing the Freedom of Choice Act as president.