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[Poll]
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Church leaders and family "problems"
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| Yes, they would be allowed to remain in a position of leadership. |
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| No, they would be asked to step down. |
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Total Votes : 19
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(last vote on : 11/14/2008 1:56:58 PM)
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 11:05:09 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 472
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For those who say we are talking this scripture hyper-literal.
1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
So lets see. He shouldn't literally be blameless, the husband of one wife (a polygamist can be an elder then), not literally be vigilant, must be a drunkard, behave badly, inhospitable, unable to teach, given to wine, striker, greedy for dirty money, inpatient, a brawler, covetous, must not be able to rule his house, have children that disrespect him, a novice in the Lord, and better be full of pride.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 11:12:00 PM
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crankius
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quote:
a novice in the Lord, and better be full of pride
These are the qualifications I have seen be the MOST overlooked in young pastors seeking to be an elder.
A young man fresh out of seminary is very rarely ready to be a full-time elder, and usually seminary has so puffed their heads that they are a detriment to the church (and to themselves and their families).
An education and a title do not make a man into an elder. An elder is matured by the Lord, and we recognize him because he meets the Biblical qualifications that God thankfully gave us.
< Message edited by crankius -- 9/25/2008 11:20:50 PM >
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 2:40:11 AM
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LifeisGalatians220
Posts: 51
Joined: 4/25/2006
From: Charleston, SC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TrustingGod
emerging, you ask "what about the daughter?" She learns a very valuable and tough lesson. Her actions affect others. Good or bad, her actions have repercussions that could negatively affect an innocent bystander. Her act of rebellion could cause her father to lose his job.
I'm in agreement... and before someone tries to start calling me a cold hearted, unloving, legalist, I just want you to know... I am that adulteress in the dirt, but I had to come face to face with the holiness of God revealed in His law, to see how horrible my sin was. Without that I would never have known the need for the love and grace that He extended to me through His Son. You cannot know one without the other. There is no reconciliation, resurrection power, or abundant life without first identifying with the cross.
As to the attacks against men and women who stand firm on the literal word of truth... I praise God for them. I trust them to not only know what the word says, but to act on it. Whether that is in confronting sin, correcting false doctrine or restoring a repentant brother or sister. How could you trust someone who won't speak the truth when you need it. If a man or woman is unwilling to deal with the hard things of scripture, Jesus lets them walk away. A godly man or woman does this also, but never gives up hope that the person will return to the truth.
As for the "pastor" situation; Paul was crystal clear; the pastor needs to step down. Something was not right in the home and another man was meeting the need that the daughter had for love. Her actions show that she was deceived and willing to believe a lie. (Just as I was) Whatever the circumstances that led up to it, he needs to be there for her now more than ever before. She needs love and guidance, but above all, she needs her father to be her earthly shepherd until she is willing to follow her heavenly shepherd.
I've been fortunate to see a church deal with a pastor's issues (not this specific one), asking him to step down for a time, with pay, to be able to resolve them, and reconcile with the others involved. I would hope that would be the case for all churches, having the elders step into the pulpit in the interim. Restoration and reconciliation is always the goal of our heavenly Father.
BTW~ there's an amazing lack of scriptural support for one side of the argument here. Hmmmmmm.
_____________________________
Victory is not me overcoming sin
Victory is Jesus overcoming me!!!
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[Deleted] - 9/26/2008 7:09:54 AM
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 10:46:40 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
For those who say we are talking this scripture hyper-literal.
1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
So lets see. He shouldn't literally be blameless, the husband of one wife (a polygamist can be an elder then), not literally be vigilant, must be a drunkard, behave badly, inhospitable, unable to teach, given to wine, striker, greedy for dirty money, inpatient, a brawler, covetous, must not be able to rule his house, have children that disrespect him, a novice in the Lord, and better be full of pride.
Over the years I have found that when problems arise in a Church and a split in on the horizon; the root of the problem can be attributed to the Pastor not meeting the above requirments.
Or the Pastor (and the Leadership) not implementing another plain instructional passage in Titus;
(Tit 3:10) After the first and second warning, reject a man of heresy,
Scripture is so very complete on how we are to do Church (Gathering of the Saints), and for some strange reason for the most part we ignore the God given instructions.
I know that when my daughter committed sexual sin ang found herself pregnant that my removing myself from the ministry until there was proof positive that I had regained control of my family; was very beneficial for the Church, my daughter, my entire family, and for me. I mean afrter all it was God's way for me to do that so it had to be beneficial for all;
(Rom 8:28) And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 10:50:13 AM
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LifeisGalatians220
Posts: 51
Joined: 4/25/2006
From: Charleston, SC
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BTW ~ Sorry if I seemed a bit cranky in my previous post. It was a long night. (where's the sleepy smiley?)
Blessings,
Melanie
_____________________________
Victory is not me overcoming sin
Victory is Jesus overcoming me!!!
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 10:55:09 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4505
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quote:
Scripture is so very complete on how we are to do Church (Gathering of the Saints), and for some strange reason for the most part we ignore the God given instructions.
RC--Thank you for being faithful to the Word.
I think that God knew what He was doing when He put the qualifications in Scripture for us to use. I don't think God needs us to second-guess the qualifications (as if He didn't think of all these issues thoroughly enough).
One thing for certain: when the qualifications are overlooked, a mess follows.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 10:57:24 AM
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LifeisGalatians220
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From: Charleston, SC
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Okay RC, WOW. If that's not setting aside your "self" for the body, and your precious daughter, I don't know what is. Makes me want to pack and head to OK. You're a blessing.
In Chirst,
Melanie
_____________________________
Victory is not me overcoming sin
Victory is Jesus overcoming me!!!
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 11:34:08 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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OK, best answers so far:
Earthless - step down but surrounded by loving support. A very good and possible solution.
Laura - take it case by case. Past sin doesn't necessarily imply current mismanagement of the household as long as the sin is being dealt with. I think there is truth to that.
RC - I probably disagree with the degree that he takes this to, but doggone it - you have to respect his personal consistency on the issue.
1love1Gof1way/Lapidoth - I think you were right in bringing some historical context to the discussion. Thanks.
There was one aspect of the thread that I don't think got vetted out completely. Emerging's point about the adopted kids struck me. We have a couple in our church that adopted two very troubled small children. For some very tragic reasons, these two kids will likely cause their parents tremendous grief over the coming years. For reasons that are both biological and emotional, it's unlikely their behavior ever matches up to a standard that we would otherwise find acceptable in a child.
In a strict reading of the text, you would have to think that the parents of these kids are likely taking themselves out of consideration as elder for a long time. This is sad, since the dad is one of the most gifted, wise, and patient people that I know.
What allowances do you make for this? This risk here is that people who could otherwise serve as elders brilliantly but have a desire to parent deeply troubled kids take themselves out of public spiritual service. Something about that just doesn't fit.
Thoughts?
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 11:43:03 AM
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laura...
Posts: 2928
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quote:
What allowances do you make for this? This risk here is that people who could otherwise serve as elders brilliantly but have a desire to parent deeply troubled kids take themselves out of public spiritual service. Something about that just doesn't fit.
This is why I believe "managing their household well" should be based on how they are managing overall rather than on specific situations.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 11:58:14 AM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 472
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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quote:
What allowances do you make for this? This risk here is that people who could otherwise serve as elders brilliantly but have a desire to parent deeply troubled kids take themselves out of public spiritual service. Something about that just doesn't fit.
quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
This is why I believe "managing their household well" should be based on how they are managing overall rather than on specific situations.
See though the fact of the matter is just because someone wants to be in leadership doesn't mean they should. If you don't fit the criteria for whatever reason then don't take up those positions.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 11:59:43 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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That's my leaning as well, but I have to confess to not having really considered this exact scenario before. I think I would want some background on this to determine a couple of interpretive points. For example, when Paul gives his lists like this are they intended to be exhaustive and complete? Are they intended to be prescriptive in a detailed jot-by-jot, tittle-by-tittle check the box sort of way or descriptive in the sense of an observed and established general pattern? There's a theoretical interpretive question there that involves how people like Paul used this type of language and how such language was intended to be understood. At this point, without an answer to that question I think you could legitimately go either way.
I have a certain leaning here, but nothing that I would advocate yet as my definitive answer without a lot more consideration. So far, I think there's been some decent thought expressed here. I'd be unwilling to call anyone's answer on this wrong at this point.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 12:01:36 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
I think if God has blessed you with a household of adopted children who are difficult to raise, your ministry is in your home.
Being an elder is a ton of work, and requires a great sacrifice not only of the elder's time, but the family as well. I would hate to think of the price that would be paid for a man to dedicate himself to serving as an elder while at the same time trying to manage a difficult household.
Not everyone is qualified to serve as an elder, but it doesn't mean they aren't still extremely important in the church and in the ministry.
And BTW, Group, thanks for the compliments on my brilliant posts. I appreciate it so much! 
Exactly.
Paul elsewhere goes as far as to say you are better off remaining single to serve God better. However a single person can't serve as an elder I don't think.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 12:01:53 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4505
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quote:
when Paul gives his lists
I think the lists come from God, through Paul. So, I trust them to be exactly what we are to use when selecting elders/deacons.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 12:03:01 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
And BTW, Group, thanks for the compliments on my brilliant posts. I appreciate it so much!
Sorry - I omitted your name unintentionally. I kind of lumped you in with Earthless mentally but failed to give you co-credit. I meant to. (That's true, actually - a sincere apology for the oversight.)
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 12:07:08 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
when Paul gives his lists
I think the lists come from God, through Paul. So, I trust them to be exactly what we are to use when selecting elders/deacons.
I agree but the application of those lists can be different depending on what Paul intended to be understood by them and how he intended them to be used.
I've always been convinced that the meaning of a text isn't necessarily the meaning provided by a surface reading of it. Rather, the meaning of a text is what the original writer wanted to communicate to the original reader. I think this often involves a consideration of genre, form, style and historical communication styles. I think those things can impact meaning, and it's important to try to get inside the head of a writer to try to figure out exactly what he wanted done.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 12:08:08 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4505
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
However a single person can't serve as an elder I don't think.
Now that's an interesting point and one I've looked into before. Hard to decide.
Paul was clearly an Apostle, a leader in the church, though single. However, he was chosen directly by Christ for his role.
The "household" criteria helps us know if a man has leadership skills and can manage people well, and helps us evaluate his maturity.
It's an interesting point to ponder.
So, I'm out for a while today. I'll stop in later.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 12:15:48 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 472
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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quote:
when Paul gives his lists
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
I think the lists come from God, through Paul. So, I trust them to be exactly what we are to use when selecting elders/deacons.
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
I agree but the application of those lists can be different depending on what Paul intended to be understood by them and how he intended them to be used.
I've always been convinced that the meaning of a text isn't necessarily the meaning provided by a surface reading of it. Rather, the meaning of a text is what the original writer wanted to communicate to the original reader. I think this often involves a consideration of genre, form, style and historical communication styles. I think those things can impact meaning, and it's important to try to get inside the head of a writer to try to figure out exactly what he wanted done.
I agree to an extent but I think the key to verse 4 is what is said in verse 5.
1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
A man considering being a bishop/elder or deacon must look hard at his life, his family, etc. He must then be honest with himself and when being examined for said role he needs to be honest with those who would put him over them.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 12:16:53 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
However a single person can't serve as an elder I don't think.
Now that's an interesting point and one I've looked into before. Hard to decide.
Paul was clearly an Apostle, a leader in the church, though single. However, he was chosen directly by Christ for his role.
The "household" criteria helps us know if a man has leadership skills and can manage people well, and helps us evaluate his maturity.
It's an interesting point to ponder.
So, I'm out for a while today. I'll stop in later.
Agreed. It really is interesting. FYI - This verse is a great case study if you ever want to do a small group discussion on biblical interpretation and interpreting a biblical writer in the context of all the other things he's written and other passages elsewhere.
We did that once in a class we taught and it was a phenominally fun study. Off topic, but a fun suggestion for those that teach. You can take this to a couple of extremes that range from "left field liberal" to "so far to the right I can't even see my left hand".
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 12:20:07 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4JesusLOL. It's ok. I was just trying to be funny.
No worries, I'm just trying to stay out of trouble. Hard to do with Laura, Cranky, RC and the rest of y'all. There be smart folks here.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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