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[Poll]
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Church leaders and family "problems"
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| Yes, they would be allowed to remain in a position of leadership. |
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| No, they would be asked to step down. |
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Total Votes : 19
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(last vote on : 11/14/2008 1:56:58 PM)
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 4:04:19 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 4:09:45 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3469
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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I am a seeker of the truth before we twisted it. lol.
I've found on many subjects that we are all "wrong."
You know, "We can't all be right."
I just took it once step further and found we can all be wrong.
So, then you dig as deep as you can.
Go to the Greek, the Hebrew, the traditions of first century,
understanding of the idioms, etc.
I'm willing to change my mind on some issues. lol.
I have never been wrong, just misinformed.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 4:12:44 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 4:13:43 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3469
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
well, I once thought I was wrong only to find out I was mistaken.
peace.
LOL. I'll have to add that to my reportoire.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 4:13:53 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
I agree parents are responsible for their children but that does not mean they are to blame for their children's sins. In the same way, a pastor is responsible for his or her parish and the people he or she shepherds but is not to blame if one of the sheep gets lost or falls into sin. You, however, are seem to be arguing in the other direction.
Again you show your ignorance of the Word of God.
Church leaders are indeed responsible for the flock over which they have care for;
(Heb 13:16) But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
(Heb 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Scripture plainly says that the leadership has to give an account for the souls of those they lead.
So it seems there is a day of reckoning about how we teach and lead.
Which brings us back to the OP. One of the passages concerning this says;
(1Ti 3:4) One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;[/b]
And the very next verse explains why this is so very important;
(1Ti 3:5) (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
The responsibility of a Pastor (Elder, Bishop) is to take care of the Church of God; and how they take care of their family is indicitive of whether they can or not. they can care for the Church of God. The Scripture is most plain and simple concerning this subject.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 4:16:33 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3469
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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I'm glad you have a congregation that obeys you RC.
Can you send me some help on this side of the state? LOL.
quote:
(Heb 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you,
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 4:19:20 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I'm glad you have a congregation that obeys you RC.
Can you send me some help on this side of the state? LOL.
quote:
(Heb 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you,
We have to give an account whether they respond to the Truth of the Wordor not; so being a Pastor is a little heavier load than most folks think.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 4:22:16 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3469
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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Congrats on your new book RC.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 4:53:35 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 4:54:18 PM
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fantom
Posts: 57
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the emerald city
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I am going back to Laura's post and agree. So much depends on the kid and the relationship. I have known many preachers, deacons' and elders' kids who would go out of their to make sure they didn't do ANYTHING their parents' wished. I am not sure how that part happened... some were mad at daddy for not making enough money or whatever and some were jerks and some needed to make a statement that just because dad is this doesn't mean I am.
I also know some that had one moment of weakness and it changed their life forever.
Drug addiction v. they tried it once because of peer pressure or the wrong place at the wrong time.
I notice the question only addresses the pregnant daughter, not the father of the baby. I personally don't see a difference other than he can deny it and she can't... at least not past the ninth month or so. Maybe it was phrasing of the question error and not a sexism error. My wife made a mistake 23+ years ago... she (we) have an adult daughter, Mr. Sperm Donor's family doesn't know she exists (and live within miles of us).
All that to say, I am not sure how I feel because I know too many personal stories of people that are amazing and children that decided that they knew a better way...
_____________________________
Whenever I'm about to do something, I think, "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do NOT do that thing"
Dwight Shrute
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 5:03:24 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 5:14:54 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
fantom, good points.
As a pastor who was ALSO a PK (God has a sense of humor) I can say that you are absolutely right. I am also the oldest of 4 children and presently have 4 kids myself. My brother and two sisters and myself have all had different journeys. My parents, however, were terrific parents and very Godly (and VERY conservative - you would like them, RC  ) We were raised in the Nazarene church - holiness people. We were in church as kids ALL the time. But ya know what? Just because you are a pastor's kid doesn't mean you are automatically a Christian. That is something every person has to reckon with themselves. My brother got into some trouble growing up. Was it my parent's fault? Of course not. Kids are kids and teenagers are teenagers. We do stupid stuff. We make mistakes. But what made my parents wonderful in those moments and very Christ-like is that they ALWAYS showed us stern discipline with love and all our "teaching moments" were filled with prayer and scriptural teaching. So were they managing their household well? Yes! They fulfilled their God-given purpose and mission as parents. But they cannot make every choice for me or my sisters and brother.
I am trying to imagine RC, as a pastor, have one of his members' come to him and tell him that their daughter is pregnant. I would love to be a fly on the wall and hear him tell them it is their fault. That if they were just better parents this wouldn't have happened.
Scripture says what Scripture says and it says;
(1Ti 3:4) One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(1Ti 3:5) (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
No ifs, ands, or butts; if a Pastor's family is not in order with all gravity; the man is not qualified to be a Pastor and must step down.
Now folks can try to rationize it, excuse it, twist it, or ignore it; but that is the Word of God.
Man's wisdom does not negate the plain simple Word of God.
(1Co 1:19) For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
(1Co 1:20) Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
God's Word is God's Work and must be adhered to; as Christ so aptly put it;
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 5:19:47 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 5:51:35 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 5:59:51 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 472
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Kat-
Thanks for that PM. I spent about 15 minutes addressing a reply to you sharing my heart on this matter and where I am coming from only to find you have blocked me from responding. Makes me wonder if your "friendly warning" was nothing but christian-ese.
How charitable.
Why call her out in here?
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 6:05:15 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
As I said before - scripture in the hands of a legalist is a very dangerous thing. No one is disputing scripture says what you so wonderfully cut and pasted. What is in dispute is how you are applying those passages. The fact that you ignore real, practical life situations and wish to keep this out of reach and abstract is a far greater disservice to the pastoral office than having an unruly child ever will be.
Being obedient to the Word of God far outreaches "Real, practical life situations", it is really simple; there are reqirements layed out by God for Church leades and if one does not qualify then they have no business being a Church leader; period.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 6:06:54 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 6:13:05 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
oh, sure. God's word has not practical relevance.
I'm shocked that as a pastor you refuse to engage in real pastoral situations such as have been presented in this thread.
Lets just keep all that sin stuff at arm's length, right?
I thought we were discussing a real life situation concerning a Pastor who daughter was committting sexual sin and being out of order and what must the Pastor do.
What is the world are you talking about.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 6:49:37 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 7:19:42 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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Well I rekon we have came to an impass here.
I believe the Word of God to be true yesrterday, today, and forever. It does not change to fit the circumstances; circumstances must be brought into liine with the Word.
You on the other hand seem to take a more humanist secular track and change the Word to fit the . You are almost "Emergent Church" in you application of God's Word.
quote:
But if you are solely interested in the case presented in the OP than I wonder why you hadn't first sought to find out what sort of pastor and parent the person in question is? These are, presumably, real people ya know. Why haven't you asked what actions the parent/pastor has taken in bringing repentance and reconciliation to the daughter? circumstances
Well that is the point is it not.. It does not matter how hard he tried, he could not take care of his family and the Word ask how could he expect to take care of the Church;
(1Ti 3:5) (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
So to be in line with the Word of God and the qualifications laid down for Pastors (Elders, Bishops) then the guy must step down whether or not he is the nicest guy in town.
Here is the whole little list of qualifications for a Pastor (Elder, Bishop) from First Timothy (The same list is repeated in Titus);
1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Which and how many of those would you not require a Pastor to be in line with.
Or does the Word not really matter to you?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 7:38:52 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 7:49:59 PM
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TrustingGod
Posts: 162
Joined: 6/19/2008
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emerging, you ask "what about the daughter?" She learns a very valuable and tough lesson. Her actions affect others. Good or bad, her actions have repercussions that could negatively affect an innocent bystander. Her act of rebellion could cause her father to lose his job.
Our nation is in the state it is because we are too busy making sure that no one has their feelings hurt and we don't want to hold people accountable. We can't keep bringing down the standards just so more and more people can meet them. Let's keep the standard high and encourage people to reach it.
If more pastors had the courage and devotion to God that RCJames did (stepping down until he got his family in order), maybe the Church would have more credibility. It is shameful that the divorce rate among Christians is the same as in the world.
Not legalism, emerging, simply living to the standard God has called us to.
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 7:55:16 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Kat-
Thanks for that PM. I spent about 15 minutes addressing a reply to you sharing my heart on this matter and where I am coming from only to find you have blocked me from responding. Makes me wonder if your "friendly warning" was nothing but christian-ese.
How charitable.
Very bad manners speaking to what takes place in the PM world.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 7:58:34 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 8:00:34 PM
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