Hand them over to satan? (Full Version)

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terryjohn -> Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 4:33:29 PM)

We spend soo much time and effort in trying to prevent our loved ones from doing the wrong thing and many have not done so simply because they were prevented from doing the things that should not be done. Would we not be better off infact letting men do the evil they have imagined that all those who see their destruction learn not to blaspheme in doing such?

Now I am not suggesting that men be allowed to do as they please for we who love the righteousness of God would then be compelled to oppose them all the more but what I am saying this is what God sees as being important in allowing sin to still exist. For in the destructive consequences of sin, is not the rigtheousness of God revealed?

Let no man stand before God and say, "I did no evil because I wasn't allowed to," or because, "I was prevented from doing so." Should it not be that those of faith say instead that although we once sinned we now because of the love of Chirst in us have no desire to do so again?

With this in mind, I sometimes think we really should hand some of our loved ones over to satan so they through the destruction of the flesh they should learn not to insult and blaspheme the grace of God in Christ. Should this not be so if our love for God is to be put before our love of family and friends?



Thessa -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 4:52:21 PM)

I think its becoming really clear im on the wrong section of the board if anyone agrees with this thread or the one about revenge on God.



sparkleingsnow -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 4:54:06 PM)

I find this kind of twisted thinking.

First, the Bible tells us that if a man looks on a woman with lust, he has already commited adultery. So even if we stop them from doing something they shouldn't, haven't they already done it in they're heart, so they are still accountable to God for it. So I don't think someone saying "I didn't do something becouse someone wouldn't let me" will hold water with the Lord.

The Lord knows our hearts even better than we even know them ourselfs, and He know if we put Him first or not. Letting our loved ones do something they shouldn't doesn't show that we love God more. In fact I think we would be in error to do so. Our two commandments is to love the Lord and to love others. "Others" does include our family. Woud it be loving to let our loved ones do something that will get them in more trouble here on earth, maybe be exposed to things that would drag them futher away from the Lord? Or would it be more loving to stand firm on what we believe is right or wrong. To try to be an example and wittness to them of Jesus's love for them? I choose #2.



musicboss11 -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 4:57:12 PM)

So, if a "loved" one wants to commit murder, or armed robery, or rape someone I should let them so that they will learn a lesson, and so that I can prove that I love God more than that person? [&:]



raivyne -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 5:02:04 PM)

Others are not ours to hand over to anyone. They make their own choices and we should pray they make the right ones.

that being said if you mean should we just give up on those who don't know Jesus as their Savior? or those who know who He is but aren't really walking with Him. uhh nope. we are to spread the gospel. Normally when someone I know and care about is doing something I believe is wrong I give he or she to God... meaning I pray for the Lord to minister to their hearts. The choice is still theirs to make. I do what I can by example to show them a better way and I continue to love them.



TorchHeart -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 5:16:11 PM)

quote:

I find this kind of twisted thinking.


To say the least. Simply "handing someone over to Satan" is NOT a Biblical ideal in my mind. If someone is sinning or s going to sin in a serious manner, we should point out the error of their ways so they can repent of it, rather than simply let them go about their business and suffer for it.



delete123 -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 5:19:26 PM)

Ohhhh! Okay so it wasn't just me who thought that this was a meanspirited post and waayyy out there.
Whew!



Thessa -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 5:32:16 PM)

Yeah. This section is getting a little too out there for me in alot of areas. I think ill stay off this general part from now on.
Its way apart from what i believe and where my faith in God is taking me.



delete123 -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 5:56:26 PM)

TerryJohn~
What's with you today? Is everything ok in your world?
Said a prayer for you,
CRH



PureLight -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 6:05:21 PM)

I think you should just pray for them that God works in their lives to see salvation or at least pray that your own living witness be strong enough to show the love of Christ in your life.

Handing them over to Satan makes me feel like we're passing judgement on them that they're not able to be saved as they are when that's a lie.



LCannon -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 6:06:39 PM)

"handing someone over to Satan" isn't biblical , that is, to obedient nature, however it is consistent with the old nature. Rather then 'handing'(that phase seems as though Satan finally has a sure, firm and unshakable hold) perhaps 'remaining in one's arrogance(sin) unto judgment' might be more accurate. We all know souls that would have never come to obedience without a special dispensation of Grace.



ladyichigo -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 6:07:52 PM)

I think I understand your thinking here.

There are those who are consistently being irresponsible, or choosing to do the wrong things even though they are instructed otherwise, and they never reap what they sow because somebody is always rescuing them or bailing them out so they "won't get hurt".

Nobody reaps what they sow anymore these days because somebody is always "protecting" them from the consequences.

I think what the poster means by "handing them over to Satan" is to let them reap the consequences.

You do what you can in love to instruct them, teach them, warn them as we are commanded to do so. If they continue chose to do their own thing despite all the instructions that were given to them, then let them reap what they sowed.

There are those who do wrong and never take responsibility for them. They do not "own-up" to their mistakes. Why? Because the blame is put on something else. There is no consequence, and therefore there is no remorse for the wrong done, so there is no repentance in these cases.



delete123 -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 6:13:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ladyichigo

I think I understand your thinking here.

There are those who are consistently being irresponsible, or choosing to do the wrong things even though they are instructed otherwise, and they never reap what they sow because somebody is always rescuing them or bailing them out so they "won't get hurt".

Nobody reaps what they sow anymore these days because somebody is always "protecting" them from the consequences.

I think what the poster means by "handing them over to Satan" is to let them reap the consequences.

You do what you can in love to instruct them, teach them, warn them as we are commanded to do so. If they continue chose to do their own thing despite all the instructions that were given to them, then let them reap what they sowed.

There are those who do wrong and never take responsibility for them. They do not "own-up" to their mistakes. Why? Because the blame is put on something else. There is no consequence, and therefore there is no remorse for the wrong done, so there is no repentance in these cases.


Amen
Great post Mari [:D]



solarflare -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 6:30:30 PM)

Would you like Satan to spank them for you? Don't play God.

quote:

With this in mind, I sometimes think we really should hand some of our loved ones over to satan


With that in mind, I AM SO GLAD I AM NOT ONE OF YOUR LOVED ONES.

Get a grip.



solarflare -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 6:39:08 PM)

quote:

You do what you can in love to instruct them, teach them, warn them as we are commanded to do so. If they continue chose to do their own thing despite all the instructions that were given to them, then let them reap what they sowed.


God is the one who draws. People are bound by the devil. The god of this world has blinded their eyes. I can't believe some of the stuff that is turning up in these threads.

Maybe we can curse them too while we are at. This was an extreme measure.....God knows, we usually end up banging on heaven's door after we sin enough anyway. If God lets us go that far.

I was once involved with someone who turned someone over to Satan and then proceeded to nod in approval when that person continued in sin and was finally, murdered. While we are at it, we might possibly call down some fire too. Mercy. How we need it.



ladyichigo -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 9:32:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solarflare

quote:

You do what you can in love to instruct them, teach them, warn them as we are commanded to do so. If they continue chose to do their own thing despite all the instructions that were given to them, then let them reap what they sowed.


God is the one who draws. People are bound by the devil. The god of this world has blinded their eyes. I can't believe some of the stuff that is turning up in these threads.

Maybe we can curse them too while we are at. This was an extreme measure.....God knows, we usually end up banging on heaven's door after we sin enough anyway. If God lets us go that far.

I was once involved with someone who turned someone over to Satan and then proceeded to nod in approval when that person continued in sin and was finally, murdered. While we are at it, we might possibly call down some fire too. Mercy. How we need it.


Huh?

This has nothing to do with approving someone's mistakes and laughing in their faces as they suffer. That's not what I was implying at all.

It's not about cursing and calling down fire...it's not about playing God.

It's about people actually SEEING that they made a mistake because they actually experience the consequences.

Some people don't see that they made a mistake because others cover it up.

That's all I was trying to imply.



URForgiven -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/19/2008 11:33:43 PM)

I am not so sure the concept is not Biblical...

"Holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme." 1 Timothy 1:19-20

Now, what it means to hand one over to Satan, and who can and who should be doing it, is something that I am sure could be debated.

Peace



deliveredarling -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/20/2008 7:36:45 AM)

This idea is very biblical:

1Cr 5:5 {I have decided} to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Wow, Paul was really mean spirited to those God loving people in Corinth!

Those of you who do not get this thread must also not get unrepentance.

TerryJohn, you are exactly right on the money with this. This also falls in line with "shaking the dust from your feet."

And when we confront a brother if he listens we have won our brother, if not do not associate with him.

We can correct and reprove our brothers and sisters, if they do not heed the word of God, we then do turn them over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh, while we indeed are continuing to pray for them.

We are not to help them continuing sinning.



deermousie -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/20/2008 8:35:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: terryjohn

Let no man stand before God and say, "I did no evil"


No man can stand before a holy God and say, "I did no evil," not even the most delusional. We are filthy in our sin, and only the blood of Christ washes us, and only the Judge of our souls can declare us legally "not guilty." And that was because of the blood of Christ; nothing we did.

quote:

Should it not be that those of faith say instead that although we once sinned we now because of the love of Chirst in us have no desire to do so again?


Scripture makes it clear we always desire to sin; it's God's power only that we are no longer slaves to doing so.

quote:


...hand some ... over to satan .


As Deliveredarling pointed out, this is a biblical concept in this, although you pulled it way out of context considering your comments above.

The Apostle Paul did this to those (and if you mean family by the term "loved ones" there is no record of Paul's family in Scripture I'm aware of, just a hypothetical wife) who sinned, and the goal was their eventual redemption. It is the basis of excommunication, which has the goal of turning the person back to God and a righteous lifestyle. It follows the track of confronting a brother privately, then if they don't repent, confronting with 2-3 witnesses and then in front of the church. If he doesn't repent, he literally gets kicked out. Some churches practice excommunication and shunning, to give the person the feel of being outside of God's family if they continue in their sin. I have seen it work, to great rejoicing.

See Matt. 18:15-17, 1 Cor. 5:1-5, Rom. 6:12-14 (understanding that Paul is talking about positionally/legally we are free of sin but not of it's tug on us as seen in verse 12), and Rom. 3:23.

As with all things with God, the goal is a restored righteous relationship with Him. Mature Christians can help a brother who is surprised by sin (Gal. 6:1) and we are to rebuke sinners and pray for them, but our main fight against sin is inside our own skin. Thank God He has already won that battle, and our job is to rest in His victory and tell ourselves "no" in the power of the Holy Spirit.

May God bless you, Terryjohn - it's obvious that your heart is desiring God. If you have a family member who is blowing it, I pray that God will return them to a righteous position in him, and that you two can rejoice together in God's goodness. I am praying today.



drmark -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/20/2008 9:13:31 AM)

quote:

1Cr 5:5 {I have decided} to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

quote:

"Holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme." 1 Timothy 1:19-20
These two references need to be examined more carefully. Both these verses use the Greek verb paradidomi, which has at least a dozen different translations in various English versions. The meaning that seems best to me is that the Apostle Paul is acting from his personal authority as a spiritual leader to ostracize (some might say excommunicate) these three individuals from the safety of the church and into the dangers of the world in order that they might be eventually restored. Unless some of you are Apostles or duly ordained spiritual leaders of your church, I would be quite hesitant to take on authority that does not belong to you by Scriptural precedent.



deliveredarling -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/20/2008 9:21:15 AM)

It's not about having a spiritual authority to do these things. We are brothers and sisters in Christ and we are commanded to restore each other. That is what handing such a one over to satan means. It's about the discipline of the Lord. For those within the body, seeing these reoccurring and unrepentant sinners in our body allows contamination. Looking at the church in Corinth gives us this very example.

Because most churches do not follow the examples given to us in scripture out of fear of offense, we see the contamination run rampant.

We now even see half truths being taught and accepted. It's called the watered down. People don't like the idea of discipline, they don't like the idea of authority. The body is the church of Laodecia.



rcjames -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/20/2008 9:32:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: terryjohn

We spend soo much time and effort in trying to prevent our loved ones from doing the wrong thing and many have not done so simply because they were prevented from doing the things that should not be done. Would we not be better off infact letting men do the evil they have imagined that all those who see their destruction learn not to blaspheme in doing such?

Now I am not suggesting that men be allowed to do as they please for we who love the righteousness of God would then be compelled to oppose them all the more but what I am saying this is what God sees as being important in allowing sin to still exist. For in the destructive consequences of sin, is not the rigtheousness of God revealed?

Let no man stand before God and say, "I did no evil because I wasn't allowed to," or because, "I was prevented from doing so." Should it not be that those of faith say instead that although we once sinned we now because of the love of Chirst in us have no desire to do so again?

With this in mind, I sometimes think we really should hand some of our loved ones over to satan so they through the destruction of the flesh they should learn not to insult and blaspheme the grace of God in Christ. Should this not be so if our love for God is to be put before our love of family and friends?


I think the whole passage that speaks to this in First Corinthians conveys the message to; Stop enabling the sin.

We all need to consider this in our relations with family (and othere).

Are we helping them; or are we enabling their contujnuance of their sin?

As with the prodigal's son maybe they just need to get down to the "Wallowing with the pigs" state before they will choose to repent.

And as with the Father; we should be there to help when they do repent.

Thanks
RC



bzirk -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/20/2008 9:41:07 AM)

The concept is not unBiblical at all. A passage has been cited that supports this idea of letting someone go their own way, and it's specifically speaking of those who claim to know Christ, i.e., who are part of the Church, the body of believers. When it becomes evident that a Christian is unrepentant, we are to let them go their own way outside the Church body.

I Corinthians 5 is pretty clear, and Paul's instruction to the Corinthians was to chastise them for not having done this already. In other words, they should have known to do this without Paul instructing them, and Paul goes on to chide them for being so proud of their tolerance and thereby putting the church body at risk. Read the passage in I Cor. 5 and pray about it and see if it does not become clear. If you want the Greek interpretation, then we can explore it, but there is nothing in the Greek that precludes this interpretation and in fact totally points to it.

It also bears noting that the parable of the prodigal son falls right in line with this thinking. The father let the son go his own way, and what happened? He did come back. There is hope. That is also clear at the end of the I. Cor. 5 passage:

5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.




bzirk -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/20/2008 9:42:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: terryjohn

We spend soo much time and effort in trying to prevent our loved ones from doing the wrong thing and many have not done so simply because they were prevented from doing the things that should not be done. Would we not be better off infact letting men do the evil they have imagined that all those who see their destruction learn not to blaspheme in doing such?

Now I am not suggesting that men be allowed to do as they please for we who love the righteousness of God would then be compelled to oppose them all the more but what I am saying this is what God sees as being important in allowing sin to still exist. For in the destructive consequences of sin, is not the rigtheousness of God revealed?

Let no man stand before God and say, "I did no evil because I wasn't allowed to," or because, "I was prevented from doing so." Should it not be that those of faith say instead that although we once sinned we now because of the love of Chirst in us have no desire to do so again?

With this in mind, I sometimes think we really should hand some of our loved ones over to satan so they through the destruction of the flesh they should learn not to insult and blaspheme the grace of God in Christ. Should this not be so if our love for God is to be put before our love of family and friends?


I think the whole passage that speaks to this in First Corinthians conveys the message to; Stop enabling the sin.

We all need to consider this in our relations with family (and othere).

Are we helping them; or are we enabling their contujnuance of their sin?

As with the prodigal's son maybe they just need to get down to the "Wallowing with the pigs" state before they will choose to repent.

And as with the Father; we should be there to help when they do repent.

Thanks
RC


I should have read this before I posted. Well put.



drmark -> RE: Hand them over to satan? (9/20/2008 9:52:18 AM)

quote:

It's not about having a spiritual authority to do these things.
Well, that's not how I read 1 Cor 5:3-5. Paul specifically stated that he was with the Corinthian congregation in spirit and had already passed judgement on the unrepentant sinner, just as if Paul were physically present.

quote:

We are brothers and sisters in Christ and we are commanded to restore each other.
I fully agree, but how does the Biblical mandate to gently restore a sinner (Gal 6:1) automatically give each of us the Apostolic authority to excommunicate one another! That's quite a stretch, don't you think, dd?

quote:

Looking at the church in Corinth gives us this very example.
Well, I disagree. Looking at the church in Corinth gives us the example for duly authorized ostracization. Apostolic authority was present at least spiritually if not physically, Paul had already passed judgement, and the congregation was to assemble in the power of the Lord to expel the wicked one.

quote:

The body is the church of Laodecia.
It only takes several minutes of perusing the Theology threads to see that many Believers and their churches subscribe to lukewarm doctrine and practice. However, unless you attend a different church/denomination every week, it is inappropriate to over-generalize in such a way. There are numerous God-fearing, Bible-believing, Spirit-led Christians living in and for and like Jesus all over the world. If your local body is not so characterized, dd, then start a revival or find a new church!



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