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Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/17/2008 5:19:13 AM
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RJR_fan
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One prominent component of CCM is the re-branded romantic motif. "Just replace 'Jesus' with 'Baby'," a Simpsons character explained to Homer once, and you can become a cross-over success.
Sorry, folks, I'm a dude, and the appeal of having sexually romantic feelings towards Jesus sort of leaves me cold. Particularly since this is the only relational mode celebrated in 90% of CCM.
What ever happened to the Lord of armies, the God of battles, the glorious, insomnia-inducing joy of kicking but? (see Psalm 149)
Did Ray Boltz find the way to his current romance with guys made easier by the "Jesus is my girlfriend" motif?
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/17/2008 6:44:08 AM
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ravneskrik
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Heh... yeah, I agree a lot of CCM does tend to be of the "God is my giant invisible girlfriend in the sky" type.
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Domine Iesu Christe, Fili Dei, miserere mei, peccatoris.
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/17/2008 7:49:19 AM
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mapachito13
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I take it that the book "Song of Songs" (also known as "the Song of Solomon" or "Canticle of Canticles") is not your favorite book in the Bible! 
I guess there is Biblical precedence for this type of lyrics!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/17/2008 7:53:15 AM
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Bobby
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This is a serious question, RJR Fan -- and one that has me seriously questioning the industry, its leaders, and the attitudes.
Some in church (mostly older members) questioned the man who led music in church following a few questionable incidents, leading to his divorce and eventual departure from church. John MacArthur has discussed this in a few times, and I must agree that we are having troubles because of this and that's why we do not see boys, let alone men, in churches today. Our music ministry is now led by members who would prefer teens dancing to these "Jesus is my girlfriend" songs, and the leaders say it's better than sacred songs of a didactic nature. We had a service this year that consisted of girls dancing to pop tunes (with two boys on one routine) and that was it -- it was no different than what you'd see in a dance studio, and having taken an adult dance class at a major area studio for fitness, I would understand it.
And if it's not the dance troupe doing such, it's our "worship band" that has taken total control of the church, as current leaders alienated older members by going to the rock band and this music, which has offended many older members by going to pop love songs that is not suited for church music. A lack of teaching, preaching, and study of God's Word took place in church now, unlike the past with the great sacred song of the past.
These churches are not producing legitimate fruits, since many youth who attend such churches that offer such diet of "Jesus as a girlfriend" music do not come back when they are older because it produced a false church image that cannot be legitimate. What type of gospel is being taught?
This type of music fits with the modern idea that feelings is the dominant trend in the country because feelings is the only thing that counts regarding society today. Feelings is the only "logic" behind too many new laws in the country.
As for the Boltz controversy, feelings is the logic behind the 1973 decision by the American Psychiatric Association to remove homosexuality from the list of disorders -- I still refer to it as one, and am attacked for saying such.
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/17/2008 8:01:58 AM
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PHmosh1
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quote:
I take it that the book "Song of Songs" (also known as "the Song of Solomon" or "Canticle of Canticles") is not your favorite book in the Bible!
I guess there is Biblical precedence for this type of lyrics!
Umm... This book was written as a sexually charged conversation between a husband and wife. I don't think it was God's love letter to his church.
I've got to say, I don't need Jesus to be my girlfriend, and neither does anybody else. We need him first and foremost to destroy strongholds and defeat our enemy.
_____________________________
I'm so bored, I just look interested.
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/17/2008 9:18:17 AM
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Stratplayer
Posts: 167
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From: Northern VA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
I take it that the book "Song of Songs" (also known as "the Song of Solomon" or "Canticle of Canticles") is not your favorite book in the Bible!
I guess there is Biblical precedence for this type of lyrics!
What PHmosh1 said. The Song of Solomon is clearly about romantic (eros) love between a husband and wife. While there are parallels between the marriage covenant and the relationship between Christ and His church, it is not the primary focus in this particular book of the Bible.
< Message edited by Stratplayer -- 9/17/2008 10:55:37 AM >
_____________________________
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. (Phil. 4:6-7
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/17/2008 9:38:05 AM
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amybreit
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Could someone list (song title & artist) some "Jesus is my girlfriend" songs? I've heard this term thrown out a lot & am trying to figure out what songs fit into this category.
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<------ Staci & Stoli, our k9 kids!
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/17/2008 10:26:24 AM
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tafkam
Posts: 2069
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Somebody compiled a list of some of the more distrubing imagery in modern worship....I don't agree with all of them, but it does make for amusing reading...
Jesus take me as I am,
I can come no other way.
Take me deeper into You,
Make my flesh melt away.
- Jesus, Take Me As I Am
By Dave Bryant
Your love is extravagant
Your friendship (mmmm) is intimate
I find I'm moving to the rythyms of your grace
Your fragrance is intoxicating in our secret place
Your love is extravagant
Spread wide in the arms of Christ…
- Your Love is Extravagant
By Darrell Evans
My Jesus, dream maker
My Jesus, life giver
I’m living under the kiss of heaven…
- Kiss of Heaven
By Darlene Zschech
That my heart, beats to the rhythm of Your heart
That my eyes focus on Your beautiful eyes.
- I Adore You
By Phil Wickham
I can't get enough of You
Cause I am in love with You
O How I long for You
Cause I am in love with You
It burns like blazing fire
It rises like a mighty flame
My greatest desire
To be sealed in Love.
- I Am In Love With You
By Darrell Evans
Oh Lord, you put a tongue in my mouth.
“You Put A Tongue In My Mouth”
by Ian Smalle
I need Your loving arms again
I need the warmth of Your embrace
Look into my soul again and set my heart aflame.
- I Need You
By James Choi
I’ll never, no never, I’ll never ever stop loving You.
My precious possession, there is no end to what we can do.
- I'll Never Stop Loving You
By Israel Houghton
I’m falling deeper, coming closer
I can almost hear You breathing.
- Im Falling Deeper (Surface)
By Lifehouse
Intimacy, O Jesus, intimacy.
My treasure will be, O Jesus, Your intimacy.
- Intimacy
By Matt Redman
You've taken my breath away
with your irresistible love
- Irresistible
By Darlene Zschech
And oh, how could I not be moved
Lord here with You
So have Your way in me
- One Desire
Hillsong Australia
I was made to worship and adore you—enjoy you
Put you on a pedestal and lay there before you
The more you do work in me the more I can’t ignore you
I’ve been in awe
Every since my inner man first saw you
- We Worship You
By The Ambassador
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/17/2008 10:59:47 AM
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Stratplayer
Posts: 167
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From: Northern VA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
Oh Lord, you put a tongue in my mouth.
“You Put A Tongue In My Mouth”
by Ian Smalle
Well that one is the crux of the problem right there; French kissing Jesus???? No thanks! I don't think he'd appreciate it either  .
_____________________________
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. (Phil. 4:6-7
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/17/2008 3:28:42 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2511
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PHmosh1
quote:
I take it that the book "Song of Songs" (also known as "the Song of Solomon" or "Canticle of Canticles") is not your favorite book in the Bible!
I guess there is Biblical precedence for this type of lyrics!
Umm... This book was written as a sexually charged conversation between a husband and wife. I don't think it was God's love letter to his church.
I've got to say, I don't need Jesus to be my girlfriend, and neither does anybody else. We need him first and foremost to destroy strongholds and defeat our enemy.
If it was just that then it wouldn't be in the canon of Scripture. Marriage as a symbol of the union between God and man is used many times in the NT: Matthew 9:15 & 25:1-13, John 3:29, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:23-32, Revelations 19:7 & 21:9.
In the OT Isaiah 5:7:1-7 & 54:4-8, Jeremiah 2:2 and Ezekiel 16:23 refer to the relationship of Israel and God as like a marriage.
I guess that's why the Bible uses ALL types of different ways to write about the love of God so it will say something to everyone. That IMHO is the greatest beauty of the Bible, it has something for everyone.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/17/2008 3:38:48 PM
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Market42Fan
Posts: 180
Joined: 9/10/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
One prominent component of CCM is the re-branded romantic motif. "Just replace 'Jesus' with 'Baby'," a Simpsons character explained to Homer once, and you can become a cross-over success.
Sorry, folks, I'm a dude, and the appeal of having sexually romantic feelings towards Jesus sort of leaves me cold. Particularly since this is the only relational mode celebrated in 90% of CCM.
What ever happened to the Lord of armies, the God of battles, the glorious, insomnia-inducing joy of kicking but? (see Psalm 149)
Did Ray Boltz find the way to his current romance with guys made easier by the "Jesus is my girlfriend" motif?
I remember former CCM singer Steve Camp has been quite critical of the "God/Jesus is my girlfriend" type songs for years.
As for the "Whatever happened to the Lord of armies..." paragraph, I grew up listening to a lot of Integrity Music tapes (still like listening to those, don't slam me) and until about the last decade or so (roughly when they began putting heavy emphasis on the Hillsong music), that was actually fairly common...at least with them. And I think Carman was one of the VERY FEW CCM singers I can think of that tended to avoid these types of songs.
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/17/2008 6:18:04 PM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 716
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
I take it that the book "Song of Songs" (also known as "the Song of Solomon" or "Canticle of Canticles") is not your favorite book in the Bible!
Actually, my wife and I read it to each other on our wedding night, before going on to more interesting new experiences ....
If real, literal, human sexual love is too "dirty" to be in God's Word, then how dare we metaphorically apply said "filthy nastiness" to God? It can take a few thousand years to overcome bad ideas that take root in Christian thinking, such as the neoplatonic disdain for God's good creation, and all the blessings He loaded it with!
Actually, if you read God's own hymnbook -- and He put it right in the middle of the Bible, and made it the longest book in the Bible as well, just so we won't overlook it -- you'll read far more about knock-down drag-out fights than you will about romance!
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/17/2008 6:22:21 PM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 716
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From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
This is a serious question, RJR Fan -- and one that has me seriously questioning the industry, its leaders, and the attitudes.
Most of the CCM labels are owned by unbelieving publishing companies, and must conform to the dictates of their marketing mavens. Hence, the overwhelming saccharine flavor of most CCM -- all sugar and spice and everything nice (like little girls are made of), all "positive and encouraging." But nothing about spilling the guts of the evildoers, and letting our dogs lap up their blood. That might not sell, you see, no matter how Biblical the martial imagery is.
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/17/2008 7:06:07 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2511
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
quote:
This is a serious question, RJR Fan -- and one that has me seriously questioning the industry, its leaders, and the attitudes.
Most of the CCM labels are owned by unbelieving publishing companies, and must conform to the dictates of their marketing mavens. Hence, the overwhelming saccharine flavor of most CCM -- all sugar and spice and everything nice (like little girls are made of), all "positive and encouraging." But nothing about spilling the guts of the evildoers, and letting our dogs lap up their blood. That might not sell, you see, no matter how Biblical the martial imagery is.
"Our sanctuary of this high-rise
Our steeples our billboards
Our slogans our converts
Oh don’t forget to buy this T-shirt
As you leave
And open up the offering box
And give until it hurts
Show me an open heart and we’ll steal it away
Cause eternity’s on up for sale for a small fee today
You Know
This altar is a stage
Our sponsor must be paid
And maybe even make the front page"
From "S.M.C." by Project 86
"I'm just a stranger here, despite your everything
I'm not attached to your world of disease
Like father always said, and I can only agree
Son they will hate you because they always hated me
And even though I feel alone
I know that I could never be"
From the song "Safe Haven" by Project 86.
More to your liking? Of course I am sure Demon Hunter, Becoming the Archtype and many other groups you can find in HM Magazine might even be more to the warrior type with their lyrics. Pillar's CD "Fireproof" had a militant aspect to the lyrics as well. It's out there but it takes a little bit of looking.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/17/2008 9:37:24 PM
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Bobby
Posts: 161
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From: Orangeburg, Clemson Prefecture, Japan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
quote:
This is a serious question, RJR Fan -- and one that has me seriously questioning the industry, its leaders, and the attitudes.
Most of the CCM labels are owned by unbelieving publishing companies, and must conform to the dictates of their marketing mavens. Hence, the overwhelming saccharine flavor of most CCM -- all sugar and spice and everything nice (like little girls are made of), all "positive and encouraging." But nothing about spilling the guts of the evildoers, and letting our dogs lap up their blood. That might not sell, you see, no matter how Biblical the martial imagery is.
The two biggest publicly traded record labels in the field are SNE (Provident) and WMG (Word). The other major player is a private firm (EMI Group plc), and is the 1,000 lb gorilla in the field.
Serious church music is being ignored, and Steve Camp is right. Sadly, too many youth do not understand. Not even the hymn compilers in recent years believe it either.
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/18/2008 12:02:07 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1961
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
One prominent component of CCM is the re-branded romantic motif. "Just replace 'Jesus' with 'Baby'," a Simpsons character explained to Homer once, and you can become a cross-over success.
I didn't know the Simpsons did that, but this was the basis for one of the funniest South Park episodes ever.
quote:
Oh Lord, you put a tongue in my mouth.
“You Put A Tongue In My Mouth”
by Ian Smalle
LOL! You've got to be kidding.
The worst thing about that - there were at least a dozen people who looked at that and said, "Yeah, that's a good idea."
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/18/2008 2:42:22 AM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 716
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From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
Status: online
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quote:
I understand the whole Bride of Christ thing, but come on. That is just way out of context.
Actually, until St. Bernard came along, Christians understood that the metaphor applied to the collective entity. The Church is, as a whole, the Bride of Christ. Bernard taught his monks to apply the metaphor to the individual believers, to contort their souls into a bridal posture, and be sweet little wives to Jesus. Bernard also hurled himself naked into a snow drift on one occasion, and into a thorn bush on another, when tempted by "lust" -- thoughts of normal attraction to real human females.
This misapplied metaphor, Dr. Leon Podles wrote, lies at the root of much that is wrong in Western Christianity, Catholic or Protestant. His book The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity is sobering reading. There is some truth to the old stereotype of men being more cerebral, women more emotional. And something disgustingly feminizing about music that deliberately tries to cut the brain out of the circuit, out of the "worship experience." OK, OK, so I feel how much God loves me. Can we go on to sing about Him, rather than me? Whoops, let's not be too thoughtful, let's sing that chorus another five times ...
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/18/2008 7:18:07 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4106
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PHmosh1quote:
I take it that the book "Song of Songs" (also known as "the Song of Solomon" or "Canticle of Canticles") is not your favorite book in the Bible! Umm... This book was written as a sexually charged conversation between a husband and wife. I don't think it was God's love letter to his church. I have a commentary set (Benson's) from the 1860s and the opening statement of the Song of Solomon was that the entire book HAD to be taken as allegory of Christ and the Church; as the idea that it could be applied to a real man and woman was just too unthinkable.
Far from being inapporpriate, I believe the current "romantic" genre adds an important missing element in historic worship music. Like anything else, the pendulum may have swung too far in that direction in some cases, but given time that will re-center itself.
There should be an almost romantic longing for the return of our Lord.
Jesus said the greatest commandment was to Love the Lord our God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength. Sounds to me like that should contain some pretty strong emotional feelings. Where is that in the older didactic hymns?
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/18/2008 5:50:57 PM
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jesusfreak54848
Posts: 15
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quote:
Oh Lord, you put a tongue in my mouth.
“You Put A Tongue In My Mouth”
by Ian Smalle
LOL! You've got to be kidding.
The worst thing about that - there were at least a dozen people who looked at that and said, "Yeah, that's a good idea."
-Dan.
For what it's worth, that was a children's song. Here are the full lyrics so it makes more sense.
Lord, You put a tongue in my mouth
And I want to sing to You
Lord, You put a tongue in my mouth
And I want to sing to You
Lord, You put a tongue in my mouth
And I want to sing only to You
Lord Jesus, free us in our praise
Lord Jesus, free us in our praise
Lord, You put some hands on my arms
Which I want to raise to You
Lord, You put some feet on my legs
And I want to dance to You
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/18/2008 11:34:25 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 18075
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
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Oh, this age old subject has been going on since the late 80's. A lot of Christian artists at the time "dumbed down" their lyrics in an attempt to crossover with Jesus or girlfriend lyrics. I guess the emphasis is different now as it is being reflected in the church instead.
_____________________________
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/19/2008 12:51:02 PM
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Market42Fan
Posts: 180
Joined: 9/10/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Market42Fan
quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
One prominent component of CCM is the re-branded romantic motif. "Just replace 'Jesus' with 'Baby'," a Simpsons character explained to Homer once, and you can become a cross-over success.
Sorry, folks, I'm a dude, and the appeal of having sexually romantic feelings towards Jesus sort of leaves me cold. Particularly since this is the only relational mode celebrated in 90% of CCM.
What ever happened to the Lord of armies, the God of battles, the glorious, insomnia-inducing joy of kicking but? (see Psalm 149)
Did Ray Boltz find the way to his current romance with guys made easier by the "Jesus is my girlfriend" motif?
I remember former CCM singer Steve Camp has been quite critical of the "God/Jesus is my girlfriend" type songs for years.
As for the "Whatever happened to the Lord of armies..." paragraph, I grew up listening to a lot of Integrity Music tapes (still like listening to those, don't slam me) and until about the last decade or so (roughly when they began putting heavy emphasis on the Hillsong music), that was actually fairly common...at least with them. And I think Carman was one of the VERY FEW CCM singers I can think of that tended to avoid these types of songs.
EDIT: Going strictly off memory RJR Fan, I don't remember Boltz doing any "Jesus is my girlfriend" songs.
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/21/2008 12:46:20 AM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 716
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
Status: online
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quote:
EDIT: Going strictly off memory RJR Fan, I don't remember Boltz doing any "Jesus is my girlfriend" songs.
Thanks for pointing this out. My point, though, is that folks who "marinate" or "soak" in an ethos that exalts thrilling personal experience so highly can find it easier to let experience trump Scripture.
"Pietism" is the Christianized version of the Romantic movement, which asserted the overwhelming priority of non-rational experience -- and featured such perverts as Lord Byron and Friederich Schleiermacher. As one CCM song has it, "how can it be wrong, if it feels so right, you light up my life."
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: Jesus is my girlfriend .... - 9/22/2008 10:00:30 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4106
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
As one CCM song has it, "how can it be wrong, if it feels so right, you light up my life." Actually that was not a ccm song. It was the theme song to a secular movie of the same name. Debbi Boone had a secular top 40 hit with it and it crossed over to ccm.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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