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RE: Pure Propaganda in the name of Religion - 9/16/2008 11:56:50 AM
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ayani
Posts: 194
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
You do realize the difference between what a campaign puts out and what a third party puts out? The company you linked to sells both Obama and McCain stickers, some of which (on the actual page you linked to) are highly offensive. Obama is directly conflating his campaign and religious organizations; that is direct attempt to pander to said groups, and your willingness to ignore this (As well as Obama's lies) simply shows you aren't the least bit objective on the issue.
I don't think a bumper sticker that says "Believer for XXX" is conflating the campaign with a religious organization.
If is said "United Methodist Church for XXX" that would be another thing.
Now, I'm still not sure I'm comfortable with "Believer for XXX candidate" or "Christian for XXX candidate". I'd have to ask myself before putting it on my car: am I attempting to use the credibility of faith that Christ has given me to advance a political cause I believe in? Who is serving who?
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RE: Pure Propaganda in the name of Religion - 9/16/2008 11:57:14 AM
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YeshuaWeCan
Posts: 10
Joined: 9/13/2008
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Sorry, but I don't see how this is offensive or even how it conflates religion and politics beyond just saying "I'm a Christian and I support Obama"—which is already what millions of Christians do with Republicans.
Offering buttons and bumper stickers for sale to people who would buy them is not "pandering." And if you're so worried about conflating religion and politics, how do you feel about what James Dobson is doing?
And you said "Obama's lies"—what lies are you talking about? Lying is the main reason why I've decided not to vote Republican in this election.
And I am trying very hard to be objective. I've been praying every day about my decision in this election, and reading the Bible for guidance. I plan on reading Obama's and McCain's books too. This is partly why I started posting here, so that I can test my new beliefs. So I appreciate your help. :)
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RE: Pure Propaganda in the name of Religion - 9/16/2008 11:59:36 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7784
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I don't think a bumper sticker that says "Believer for XXX" is conflating the campaign with a religious organization.
If is said "United Methodist Church for XXX" that would be another thing.
What do you think 'Catholics for Obama' means? Last I checked the Catholics are members of the Catholic Church.
quote:
Now, I'm still not sure I'm comfortable with "Believer for XXX candidate" or "Christian for XXX candidate". I'd have to ask myself before putting it on my car: am I attempting to use the credibility of faith that Christ has given me to advance a political cause I believe in? Who is serving who?
A legitimate concern.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Pure Propaganda in the name of Religion - 9/16/2008 12:06:26 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7784
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Sorry, but I don't see how this is offensive or even how it conflates religion and politics beyond just saying "I'm a Christian and I support Obama"—which is already what millions of Christians do with Republicans.
Offering buttons and bumper stickers for sale to people who would buy them is not "pandering." And if you're so worried about conflating religion and politics, how do you feel about what James Dobson is doing?
It's absolutely pandering; it is an initiative by Obama's religious affairs director to give the impresion these groups support Obama. T my knowledge Dobson has never sole merchandise associating Christianity with the Republican party.
quote:
And you said "Obama's lies"—what lies are you talking about? Lying is the main reason why I've decided not to vote Republican in this election.
And I am trying very hard to be objective. I've been praying every day about my decision in this election, and reading the Bible for guidance. I plan on reading Obama's and McCain's books too. This is partly why I started posting here, so that I can test my new beliefs. So I appreciate your help. :)
Well, Obama told one very public lie which is roundly ignored; he promised he would take public campaign financing if McCain would do so, and then when the time came to do so, he didn't do so, but continued to take donations.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Pure Propaganda in the name of Religion - 9/16/2008 12:21:47 PM
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YeshuaWeCan
Posts: 10
Joined: 9/13/2008
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quote:
It's absolutely pandering; it is an initiative by Obama's religious affairs director to give the impresion these groups support Obama.
Give the impression? Many Christians do support Obama, and it's there choice whether or not to buy this stuff and advertise their support.
Now, I agree with ayani that, as Christians, we should be careful about tying our allegiance to Christ with an allegiance to a political party. But I don't think that's the only way to interpret someone who displays a bumper sticker like that on their car or whatever. And the Republicans have been way worse.
quote:
T my knowledge Dobson has never sole merchandise associating Christianity with the Republican party.
Is it the selling that bothers you? Or the explicit attempts to tie religion into politics?
quote:
Well, Obama told one very public lie which is roundly ignored; he promised he would take public campaign financing if McCain would do so, and then when the time came to do so, he didn't do so, but continued to take donations.
I thought this wasn't a fair criticism of Obama even when I was a McCain supporter. He said he'd do it if McCain did it fairly, but the Republicans have raised huge sums of money from independent groups and are airing ads from those groups attacking Obama. That was the condition which Obama promised to do it, and McCain made it pretty clear he would break it.
And this is really the worst "lie" you can think of from Obama? McCain has been lying through his teeth ever since the convention!
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RE: Pure Propaganda in the name of Religion - 9/16/2008 12:23:23 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: YeshuaWeCan
I am glad Obama is reaching out to us, and this isn't the first time he's tried. He said a few months ago that he would extend Bush's government support for faith-based programs. And so what if nonbelievers are voting for Obama? Do you think nonbelievers never vote Republican?
What I'm sick of is politicians treating Christians like sheep and lying to us.
Did you notice when he said it? After he had the primary wrapped up, when it was safe to act like a normal person.
If you're going to believe it, then you shouldn't complain about politicians lying to us. You're encouraging it.
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RE: Pure Propaganda in the name of Religion - 9/16/2008 12:27:14 PM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
You can bet that a lot of UNBELIEVERS in Christ will suddenly be looking very faithful as they rush to show their faith in Obama with the new gear!
I doubt it.
From what I understand, a lot of unbelievers hold their nose at Obama's faith while voting for him anyways. There's plenty of generic political junk to go around for unbelievers to wear or stick on their cars.
Yeah that explains why those in Hollywood and even a Jewish congressman are now pronouncing they know all about Jesus, that he was a community organizer.
You better believe his supporters, whether they're Christian or not, will be buying these trinkets to make it look like more Christians are supporting him then actually are.
And before you slam me I am sure there are plenty of Christians that support Obama and I'm not saying anything against that.
But I do think it a bit hypocritical when the left is trying to paint Palin as a religious nutjob.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: Pure Propaganda in the name of Religion - 9/16/2008 12:27:14 PM
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MauriceAWilliams
Posts: 3
Joined: 12/30/2005
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TMeeks got me thinking with his reference to people being misled by charismatic leaders in Russia and in Germany. I think the American people are being sold a bill of bogus goods by advocates of abortion and might face a similar danger.
The arguments of Pro-Choice people justifying abortion have gone to alarming extents. Staring off as a means for helping victims of incest or rape, abortion is now offered to woman for any reason whatsoever. I can understand that some people are not convinced that the fetus becomes human during the first trimester, but it would be hard to argue that fetuses are not yet human during the third trimester. To me it would be biologically impossible to argue that humans only become human once they are born.
Yet this is the argument used to justify late-term abortion where the fetus is allowed to fully develop and, a few days before expected natural birth, the fetus is positioned for breech birth and the body pulled out until only the head remains within the mother’s body. This satisfies the legal definition that the fetus is not human until born. Then the “unborn” fetus is harvested for pancreatic tissue, stem cells, and, after crushing the skull, brain tissue. I remember the American news media criticizing Nazi doctors for performing cruel medical research on their victims, yet the media does nothing but support what American doctors are doing.
Now we have a new procedure “Live Birth Abortion.” Medicine is inserted against the cervix, causing the cervix to open wide, and the fetus drops out of the womb. This is considered safer for the mother, but it is really brutal to the fetus. Sometimes this is done to late-term fetuses, so late that some survive the abortion attempt. The fetus is then left wrapped in a towel and left to die. Here is a link to Bill O’Reilly interviewing a nurse who witnessed these live birth abortions:
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/09/stanek_on_the_o.html
I have very grave reservations about our government continuing along this path. I think the end of the road will be the government’s position that nobody is human unless the government says they are. Nobody will have any inalienable rights unless the government grants them. This seems similar to the path the Russian people and German people walked not too many years ago.
There really is something that concerned people in our country can do to halt this trend. If they, through their votes and through their disapproval of these ultra Pro-Choice arguments, let political candidates became aware that promoting these arguments is not going to get them elected, we ordinary people could put a stop to this dangerous trend. We’ve seen enough unprincipled governments in our lifetime. Let’s not encourage another one.
_____________________________
Sincerely,
Maurice A. Williams
http://www.mauriceawilliams.com
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RE: Pure Propaganda in the name of Religion - 9/16/2008 12:34:33 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7784
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Give the impression? Many Christians do support Obama, and it's there choice whether or not to buy this stuff and advertise their support.
Now, I agree with ayani that, as Christians, we should be careful about tying our allegiance to Christ with an allegiance to a political party. But I don't think that's the only way to interpret someone who displays a bumper sticker like that on their car or whatever. And the Republicans have been way worse.
Again, I have no problem with a third party selling such stuff, as that is a legitimate freedom of expression however pernicious that expression - but his campaign is directly making these associations, which would never be accepted if done by a Republican campaign without an outcry from the press and leftists.
quote:
Is it the selling that bothers you? Or the explicit attempts to tie religion into politics?
It's the direct attempt by a political candidate to associate a church with his candidacy.
quote:
I thought this wasn't a fair criticism of Obama even when I was a McCain supporter. He said he'd do it if McCain did it fairly, but the Republicans have raised huge sums of money from independent groups and are airing ads from those groups attacking Obama. That was the condition which Obama promised to do it, and McCain made it pretty clear he would break it.
And this is really the worst "lie" you can think of from Obama? McCain has been lying through his teeth ever since the convention!
What are you talking about? People of good conscience can debate aspects of policies without 'lying', but Barak directly lied about this as exemplified by his answers to his questions about this:
If you are nominated for President in 2008 and your major opponents agree to forgo private funding in the general election campaign, will you participate in the presidential public financing system?
OBAMA: Yes. I have been a long-time advocate for public financing of campaigns combined with free television and radio time as a way to reduce the influence of moneyed special interests. I introduced public financing legislation in the Illinois State Senate, and am the only 2008 candidate to have sponsored Senator Russ Feingold’s (D-WI) bill to reform the presidential public financing system. In February 2007, I proposed a novel way to preserve the strength of the public financing system in the 2008 election. My plan requires both major party candidates to agree on a fundraising truce, return excess money from donors, and stay within the public financing system for the general election. My proposal followed announcements by some presidential candidates that they would forgo public financing so they could raise unlimited funds in the general election. The Federal Election Commission ruled the proposal legal, and Senator John McCain (R-AZ) has already pledged to accept this fundraising pledge. If I am the Democratic nominee, I will aggressively pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to preserve a publicly financed general election.
If you are nominated for President in 2008 and your major opponents agree to forgo private funding in the general election campaign, will you participate in the presidential public financing system?
OBAMA: Yes.
He lied, no ands, ifs, or buts about it - and your unwillingness to acknowledge that lie is simply a matter of your bias.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Pure Propaganda in the name of Religion - 9/16/2008 12:36:15 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: YeshuaWeCan
quote:
It's absolutely pandering; it is an initiative by Obama's religious affairs director to give the impresion these groups support Obama.
Give the impression? Many Christians do support Obama, and it's there choice whether or not to buy this stuff and advertise their support.
Now, I agree with ayani that, as Christians, we should be careful about tying our allegiance to Christ with an allegiance to a political party. But I don't think that's the only way to interpret someone who displays a bumper sticker like that on their car or whatever. And the Republicans have been way worse.
quote:
T my knowledge Dobson has never sole merchandise associating Christianity with the Republican party.
Is it the selling that bothers you? Or the explicit attempts to tie religion into politics?
quote:
Well, Obama told one very public lie which is roundly ignored; he promised he would take public campaign financing if McCain would do so, and then when the time came to do so, he didn't do so, but continued to take donations.
I thought this wasn't a fair criticism of Obama even when I was a McCain supporter. He said he'd do it if McCain did it fairly, but the Republicans have raised huge sums of money from independent groups and are airing ads from those groups attacking Obama. That was the condition which Obama promised to do it, and McCain made it pretty clear he would break it.
And this is really the worst "lie" you can think of from Obama? McCain has been lying through his teeth ever since the convention!
Fifty million dead since death Roe and you're still cooperating.
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RE: Pure Propaganda in the name of Religion - 9/16/2008 1:02:01 PM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: YeshuaWeCan
And this is really the worst "lie" you can think of from Obama? McCain has been lying through his teeth ever since the convention!
Name one.
Oh lovely username, btw. Ties into ur love for Obama and Jesus i take it? Or just Obama?
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: Pure Propaganda in the name of Religion - 9/17/2008 12:00:24 AM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: YeshuaWeCan
quote:
It's absolutely pandering; it is an initiative by Obama's religious affairs director to give the impresion these groups support Obama.
Give the impression? Many Christians do support Obama, and it's there choice whether or not to buy this stuff and advertise their support.
Now, I agree with ayani that, as Christians, we should be careful about tying our allegiance to Christ with an allegiance to a political party. But I don't think that's the only way to interpret someone who displays a bumper sticker like that on their car or whatever. And the Republicans have been way worse.
quote:
T my knowledge Dobson has never sole merchandise associating Christianity with the Republican party.
Is it the selling that bothers you? Or the explicit attempts to tie religion into politics?
quote:
Well, Obama told one very public lie which is roundly ignored; he promised he would take public campaign financing if McCain would do so, and then when the time came to do so, he didn't do so, but continued to take donations.
I thought this wasn't a fair criticism of Obama even when I was a McCain supporter. He said he'd do it if McCain did it fairly, but the Republicans have raised huge sums of money from independent groups and are airing ads from those groups attacking Obama. That was the condition which Obama promised to do it, and McCain made it pretty clear he would break it.
And this is really the worst "lie" you can think of from Obama? McCain has been lying through his teeth ever since the convention!
Obama and lies? That's not quite the softball that it would be for one of the Clintons, but still rather easy.
Let's start with the notion that he's going to cut (federal) income taxes for 95% of Americans, repeated ad nauseum. The truth is that's impossible. A very large minority of Americans already pay zero federal income tax. Their income taxes can't be cut, so Obama plays a shell game (welfare) giving them someone else's income.
BO said he had an uncle who helped liberate Auschwitz. Auschwitz was liberated by Russians. BO didn't have an uncle in Europe during WWII, Russian or otherwise.
BO said that the Kennedy administration policies helped his father immigrate to the US. His father immigrated when Eisenhower was President.
BO said that his parents met during the Selma civil rights march, which linked him to the civil rights movement. BO was born years before the march.
He said "I am my brother's keeper." His brother lives in a shack in a disease and crime infested slum.
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RE: Pure Propaganda in the name of Religion - 9/17/2008 1:03:19 AM
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wing2000
Posts: 1029
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I'd have to ask myself before putting it on my car: am I attempting to use the credibility of faith that Christ has given me to advance a political cause I believe in? Who is serving who?
I've been asking that question of the Church for the last twenty years. It seems to me the thirst for political power has undermined the message of Christ. Evangelical used to mean what it's name implies....
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RE: Pure Propaganda in the name of Religion - 9/17/2008 2:37:54 AM
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womaninchrist
Posts: 456
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
quote:
I'd have to ask myself before putting it on my car: am I attempting to use the credibility of faith that Christ has given me to advance a political cause I believe in? Who is serving who?
I've been asking that question of the Church for the last twenty years. It seems to me the thirst for political power has undermined the message of Christ. Evangelical used to mean what it's name implies....
Exactly. Whether I'm a Christian or not - or whether or not anyone else is, can be seen in the fruits of their lives per the Bible.
Going back to the bumper stickers and so on, all they're meant to be is a retort to the very unscriptural (yet incredibly popular) idea that one must be Republican and vote accordingly if one wants to claim to be Christian. There is NOTHING in the Bible that endorses EITHER party whole-heartedly. Both get a few things right and get others glaringly wrong. You can't follow - or vote for - either party without endorsing some sort of sin...
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