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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 5:22:17 PM
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cwb
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
We want to interpret the scripture in light of culture, ...
HUH?
light of culture? Yikes.
Yours truly wants to interpret scripture in light of THE LIGHT / Jesus LIGHT.
Light of culture? 2 x Yikes. I wouldn't use light of ANY culture for ANYTHING.
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 7:29:34 PM
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MAP2010
Posts: 53
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
Scripture makes it clear that women can pray and prophesy. No question about that. it's plain as can be from I Cor. I also think that women can teach and exhibit all sorts of other gifts. The only place where scripture draws the line is in having authority over men and to teach them doctrine. That is the only thing prohibited.
That's how I have been told, That thy would be teachers to their children and other Women but but Men.
Mark
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 7:45:03 PM
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MAP2010
Posts: 53
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quote:
ORIGINAL: charityagape
Well, I do have a question. In the church we've had an amazing amount of people who say women can't speak at all in the assembly or if they can its with limits and no authority or any variation thereof. So, what is the role that we are to do in the assembly? Not in the home, in the assembly.
There are many thing Women can do in the Church, like teach Women and Children is Sunday School classes and Bible study Classes for Women. Help there Pastor with task that need done so he can do his job better, Women are a Blessing from God and a Gift to Man. Women do not worry why Men are to lead, for Christ leads us because he loves us. As a Men leads because he loves you as you lead your Children as you love them as well, Women I am thankful for your gift that is yours onto All Men. But we should be willing to serve not with pride and of self, but for God and His Son Christ Jesus who gave us The Gift of Salvation.
Mark
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 7:57:17 PM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 7:58:12 PM
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MAP2010
Posts: 53
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quote:
ORIGINAL: charityagape
I understand submission. I am in submission to my husband and in another sense to my pastor and in a greater sense to all christians as we submit to one another. However, this submission to authority doesn't keep my pastor from asking me to speak in the assembly.
Well I think that a Women could speak to give testament in Church, but not as a Pastor or Teacher to Men.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 8:06:41 PM
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MAP2010
Posts: 53
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JoToP
CharityAgape,
quote:
I understand submission. I am in submission to my husband and in another sense to my pastor and in a greater sense to all christians as we submit to one another. However, this submission to authority doesn't keep my pastor from asking me to speak in the assembly.
But your submission to God’s Word should, no matter what your pastor may allow in ignorance of the doctrine.
Joint Heir,
quote:
It is incorrect to say that the desire for women to use their gifts to the fullest is an imported one...it is a biblical one...at least for the people that seem to be on this board...
In Romans 12 we are taught to use our gifts in proportion to the amount of faith and grace we are given.....not to restrict them by gender....
(unless one wants to argue that men are given more of both)
Is all there is to Church what goes on in the Assembly? Are the gifts only confined there? If so, not many gifts are of much use, are they, seeing that the order of service requires that everyone rest so much of their gifts during worship. Gifts are used predominantly outside of the Worship Assembly, in day to day fellowship where believers are serving one another. The restriction of exercise of gift in the Assembly does not permanently nullify all gifts. This is an over generalization.
quote:
and from 1 Corinthians 12:31 where we are all instructed to desire the greater gifts included in the list is the gift of apostle....which obviously is one of authority.
I’ve always found it interesting that Paul never lays out which gifts are superior except that tongues are definitely inferior to prophecy because of their inferior value in edifying the body. The condition in the church is laid out that people were using tongues in an unedifying manner. I don’t think Paul is saying that he’d like for everybody to be a prophet, though, just that gifts that most soundly build up the body should be magnified by all members (the word “desire” could be rendered “esteem” and seems to fit better than the idea that everyone is trying to achieve a gift they do not have, which would be poor advice to a body he has already described as varied in gifts.) Using this passage as a proof text for aspiring to pastor where other passages prohibit such aspiration is improper use of Scripture. One passage does not argue with another, but all agree. Pitting one passage against another and bringing personal inclinations in as ally is not a fit foundation for a Christian doctrine. As for “apostle” being in the list, that is an evidence that all of those gifts do not still exist. I would hold that this is true of prophecy as well, seeing the Word of God is complete and has been pronounced sufficient for all matters of faith and practice. Prophecy filled in the gaps where Scripture was incomplete.
quote:
(unless one wants to argue that this verse was not written for women)
Of course it is written for women and applies to women where application is not interdicted by other passages of Scripture. Many things are written for us that may not all be directly related to us for one reason or another, if for no other reason than for our instruction. I don’t believe there is a man’s Bible and a woman’s Bible contained within the canon. All of the Bible is for all believers. The Bible has a great deal to say about Jews. Most Christians are not Jews, but are edified by these passages and built up in the faith.
quote:
Women do not want to take over the church and run things their way...they don't want to just be equal for equality sake...they just want to be able to do what the Lord is calling them to do and use their gifts based on their faith and grace given to them...to help others grow and to bring people to Christ....without feeling condemned by their brothers and sisters for some perceived sin.
This is laudable, but it does not relieve women (or anyone else, for that matter) from finding out where and in what manner God would have them minister. The Bible is the rule of faith and practice. We have to be careful not to dictate doctrine by what we perceive about what we are or who we think we are or what our gifts may be. Is it a contradiction for God to give the gift of teaching to a woman and restrict her from using that gift in a certain place and at a certain time? Does that muzzle her? Can a woman only teach in the assembly? If that is her view, she need not be teaching at all because she does not understand the scope of her faith and life. The same is true of men. There are men who believe that the only place where speech can be used is in Church or on a mission field. Are there no weak Christians in the workplace, no unbelievers? Are their children without need of their gifts? What is it about a pulpit and an audience that actuates a gift? I think this kind of thinking is quite narrow.
Agreed.
Mark
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 8:19:19 PM
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MAP2010
Posts: 53
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cynthia
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ginosko
Charity,
submission to authority doesn't keep my pastor from asking me to speak in the assembly.
No one has said or implied that as a woman you may not speak at any time for any purpose in the assembly. What is prohibitted in the Scriptures is a woman "teaching" as if she were an elder, with an elder's authority, in the assembly and exercising authority over the man. That's it! Scriptures disallow women from serving as bishop/elder/pastor specifically because doing so would contradict these two prohibitions. Neither prohibition prevents a woman from praying in the assembly, sharing a testimony, prophesying, or reporting what God is doing in the world. Nor does it prohibit women from teaching. She just may not teach in the role described above.
What do you think about women being pastors of other women? Some large churches have womens pastors.
I would say if it was for Women and Children it would be find, I just do not know if the term Pastor would be used. Teacher would be best fit, as this has a powerful role as well. But Do you need to Build a New Church to have this? Could you not join another that would let you do this? Because how would you stop Men from joining? It sounds as if you should become a Sunday School and Bible Study Leader for Women and Children as this job is so much needed, as it is the base on what the Men and Women will hold close to their Hearts.
May God Bless you,
Mark
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 9:20:57 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2934
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MAP2010
quote:
ORIGINAL: cynthia
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ginosko
Charity,
submission to authority doesn't keep my pastor from asking me to speak in the assembly.
No one has said or implied that as a woman you may not speak at any time for any purpose in the assembly. What is prohibitted in the Scriptures is a woman "teaching" as if she were an elder, with an elder's authority, in the assembly and exercising authority over the man. That's it! Scriptures disallow women from serving as bishop/elder/pastor specifically because doing so would contradict these two prohibitions. Neither prohibition prevents a woman from praying in the assembly, sharing a testimony, prophesying, or reporting what God is doing in the world. Nor does it prohibit women from teaching. She just may not teach in the role described above.
What do you think about women being pastors of other women? Some large churches have womens pastors.
I would say if it was for Women and Children it would be find, I just do not know if the term Pastor would be used. Teacher would be best fit, as this has a powerful role as well. But Do you need to Build a New Church to have this? Could you not join another that would let you do this? Because how would you stop Men from joining? It sounds as if you should become a Sunday School and Bible Study Leader for Women and Children as this job is so much needed, as it is the base on what the Men and Women will hold close to their Hearts.
May God Bless you,
Mark
...And exactly how hold can a boy be before you believe a woman should not be allowed to teach him?
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 10:08:30 PM
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cwb
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
what do you mean by that?
Christ is all, and in all. Col. 3 v 11. No culture.
The bible surely says it better than I can!
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 11:23:36 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2913
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
The culture that existed THEN however bears directly on the meaning of a passage.
BT
Well, no. Absolutely negatory.
It's the Word of God. aka Jesus John 1 v 1. Jesus the same yesterday, today, tomorrow Heb 13 v 8. 
Jesus ain't got nuttin' to do with 'times' and 'cultures'.
Interesting. How do you figure out what a passage means? Don't you ever worry about what the historical context of a passage is before you start to interpret it? Seems like you'd be missing half the information if you didn't stop to understand the historical context of a passage. At the very least, it would seem that you would miss out on a lot of the richness of a text if you never stopped to understand what was going on with the writer when he originally wrote it.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 4:20:32 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1948
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
We want to interpret the scripture in light of culture, ...
HUH?
light of culture? Yikes.
Yours truly wants to interpret scripture in light of THE LIGHT / Jesus LIGHT.
Light of culture? 2 x Yikes. I wouldn't use light of ANY culture for ANYTHING.
You apparently didn't read all that I wrote.... 
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 12:08:55 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1948
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
You apparently didn't read all that I wrote....
I just went back and double-checked. What's throwin' me off is 'WE', instead of 'THEY'.
quote:
That's the problem with the church today. We want to interpret the scripture in light of culture, ...
You meant to say 'THEY', right? Since YOU DON'T want to interpret scripture in light of [anything], except the Lord's light.
Although you might include yourself amongst the body of believers, with respect to this issue, there is discord between you and they.
I read VERY, VERY, VERY critically.
I suppose I meant a collective "we" so as not to offend too greatly, but yeah, "they" want to use today's culture to interpret the Bible.
I cannot do that. I have examined scripture in it's historical cultural context, but I still come to the same conclusions that women are not to be pastors in a church.
Women are to be submissive to their husbands.
Christ is to the church as the husband is to the wife.
Therefore, the pastor(s) are to be to the congregation in the same way.
Paul himself said he does not allow a woman to teach a man. If there's a woman who calls themself a pastor or reverend, then she is obviously teaching men and disregarding scripture.
I would ask for examples of churches where there is a woman pastor and there is not some kind of significant theological error.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 12:17:00 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
I would ask for examples of churches where there is a woman pastor and there is not some kind of significant theological error.
I've been a member of two very sound churches with either a female co-pastor or head pastor. Both were Christian Reformed, conservative, and very dynamic.
Truly wonderful places to be. In the first one, the church was growing rapidly. We would regularly have 15-20 people in the new members class. Usually, no more than 3 or 4 would be transplants from another congregation. For the most part, we were drawing in people who had either left the church years ago and were just finding their way back or people who were completely new to the faith.
It was wonderful to watch REAL growth in the body instead of just cannibalizing members of other churches. Within the CRC, the first church was one of the faster growing assemblies, and in terms of new growth in new believers the fastest in the denomination. It was really fun to watch evangelism and discipleship in action.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Mens roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 1:49:48 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1948
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
In my search for a church I have listened to several women pastors. While I'm still uncertain of my beliefs on this issue, I have found something sorely lacking in these churches - MALE LEADERSHIP!!!!
Actually, regardless of the gender of the pastor, I've found that male leadership is lacking in about 95% of the churches I've visited. 
Where are the men? What are they doing?
In my church, they are following the Biblical roles set forth by them.
It's when we allow feminism in, that the male leadership fails.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Mens roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 1:57:13 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6985
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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Theos- care to enlighten me?
I've heard that many times. It seems that every one's church is doing things the Biblical way. However, in church shopping, I've found that there are far more church members who don't even know how things should be done Biblically. When I lived in the Midwest and when I moved back to CA, I have found that women are far more likely to take on leadership roles than men are. When men don't step forward and women do, then men scream feminism.
Lack of male leadership seems to be happening just as often in conservative churches as it is in liberal churches. The only difference seems to be that conservative male church members complain about it more. Conservative men don't seem to be willing to do more, they just seem to be willing to complain more.
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RE: Mens roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 2:02:33 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1948
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Theos- care to enlighten me?
I've heard that many times. It seems that every one's church is doing things the Biblical way. However, in church shopping, I've found that there are far more church members who don't even know how things should be done Biblically. When I lived in the Midwest and when I moved back to CA, I have found that women are far more likely to take on leadership roles than men are. When men don't step forward and women do, then men scream feminism.
Lack of male leadership seems to be happening just as often in conservative churches as it is in liberal churches. The only difference seems to be that conservative male church members complain about it more. Conservative men don't seem to be willing to do more, they just seem to be willing to complain more.
Could be because I'm in the Bible Belt.
We don't so much female leadership creep into the church around here.
The men are actually willing to do their jobs and take the leadership.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Mens roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 2:15:52 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6985
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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Theos, unfortunately my relatives from SC, GA, FL, TN and TX would disagree with you. I got saved in CA and shortly there after I spent about 13 years in IN and I disagree with you too. I don't see men stepping forward nearly as much as women are.
Look in the church bulletins, who is leading most of the ministries?
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 2:18:39 PM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 6:41:32 PM
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cwb
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
I've been a member of two very sound churches with either a female co-pastor or head pastor. Both were Christian Reformed, conservative, and very dynamic.
Sounds like you were 'content'.
Leviticus 10:12-20 tells of another who was 'content'. Paraphrase: God wanted something done in a particular manner. It wasn't done in that particular manner, but in a 'comparable' manner. When Moses heard about the 'comparable' manner that the thing was done, he was 'content'. I gather that God was not...
Just my gatherin' tho'...
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 7:04:54 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
I've been a member of two very sound churches with either a female co-pastor or head pastor. Both were Christian Reformed, conservative, and very dynamic.
Sounds like you were 'content'.
Leviticus 10:12-20 tells of another who was 'content'. Paraphrase: God wanted something done in a particular manner. It wasn't done in that particular manner, but in a 'comparable' manner. When Moses heard about the 'comparable' manner that the thing was done, he was 'content'. I gather that God was not...
Just my gatherin' tho'...
Judging by the way He'd blessed that church with new believers, I think God was quite content. Downright pleased, most likely.
There's room to differ on that though. We'll find out how he really felt soon enough I suppose. Until then, peace.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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