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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/22/2005 12:15:10 PM
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sadiebelle
Posts: 247
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Northern California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Well sadiebelle, I think in Biblical time, pretty everybody worked from home, and only ventured out occasionally (tentmakers for example). Pretty much nobody had a "9-5" job back then. So the examples used in that passage were typical jobs for that time period - jobs for both men and women.
It has been said here and on other forums that there are many different solutions to working women with children, and no one solution should be forced on all women. My solution will be to work part-time, stagger my schedule with my husband and when we both are working have the child with a family member or a home day-care run by a woman who goes to our church. We know her values and feel comfortable with them.
Please trust that I am not in a position where I am an advocate of forcing this on anyone. I, myself, worked outside of the home for a year and a half. I think the Lord revealed to me ( a stubborn woman) the importance of staying home, but that could be because other things were suffering as a result of me working.
If things are working for you, then nobody is in a position to judge. I'm saying that you can't use Proverbs 31 to make a case for a woman being perfectly able or commanded by God to work. Adam was given the commandment of working the ground and manual labor. Not Eve. Eve was cursed in birthing children.
We can find plenty of Scripture to honor our boses/ employers, so obviously, people were working. Also, the men were outside the home LONGER than 9-5. They had animals, farming, housing, all sorts of household chores to accomplish in order to provide for the family.
_____________________________
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Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for Thy courts above ~ Come Thou Fount
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/22/2005 6:30:24 PM
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Keabird
Posts: 695
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quote:
Adam was given the commandment of working the ground and manual labor. Not Eve. Eve was cursed in birthing children.
In Genesis 2:15, before Adam and Eve sinned, before Eve was even created, in fact, Adam was put in the garden "to work": The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. Right after that, God noted that Adam should not be alone and needs a helper "suitable for him" (Genesis 2:18). He then creates Eve. At that point, they had no children, so one can assume that Eve was helping Adam with the garden. 
Later of course, after they sinned, came the consequence of greater pain for Eve in childbirth - and all women. However, that in no way negates her obligation to continue to "help" her husband. The ground still needs working, and Adam's consequence was that the job would be made more difficult for him.
Nowhere in the "fall" do we see that suddenly Adam has the entire responsibility of working the land, and nor do we see Eve given the entire responsibility of raising children. In fact, later on in Samuel, Eli is rebuked directly by God for not correcting his sons. No mention of their mother, as I can recall.
The point I am making is that in the beginning, both men and women were called to "work", with Eve being in the support role, but still working. The consequences of the fall did not change that. Whatever happened culturally in regard to work in the many years subsequent to that is not necessarily the way it was "supposed" to be.
quote:
the choice to remain home is a very noble one
I'm sorry, but this again, to me, implies that the choice to remain home with the children is somehow "better" than other choices. While I agree that it is terribly important for parents to ensure that their children are fully taken care of and loved, etc, etc, there are many women who are unable to "fulfil" this - perhaps because they are unmarried, or can't have children, or any one of a numb er of other reasons. This does not make their calling any less "noble". I can't help but think of Princess Diana and Mother Teresa. One was a mother who showed that she cared for her children deeply, but she was also in a very unique position of being called and able to show care to her world, and she did it, while being a very good mother. I personally think she had quite a noble calling. Likewise, Mother Teresa, who as far as I am aware did not have a husband and children (?), had a noble calling which benefited many in the world.
I was a stay at home mother when my children were little, and I loved it, and believe that is what I was "called" to do at the time. But I know of other mothers who were not able to do that, through no fault of their own, and still others who don't even feel called to do that, and their children are just as well taken care of and just as much loved.
I think we need to be very careful when we consider things like this. It seems that many mothers end up having a "guilt complex" about going to work, and others end up having a "guilt complex" about staying at home with their children. 
I don't know if Proverbs 31 is talking about a real woman of the time, or just an ideal for the woman of the time. But I do wonder, while she was out buying fields and selling fine linen, who was taking care of the children ... the servants, I would imagine ... but her children still "rise up to call her blessed". :) A final note, with a bit of a grin on my face - she appears to stay up all night, weaving or sewing or some such thing. With that lifestyle, she is going to have a very short life ...
In Him, Sherri
_____________________________
"The thief comes to kill, steal and destroy, but I have come that you may have life and have it abundantly." John 10:10
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/22/2005 6:52:19 PM
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Coheir
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Good points, Sherri. In Genesis 2, the man and the woman are given an identical mandate by God - to subdue the earth and rule over creation. And there are as many ways to do that as there are people. 
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/22/2005 7:16:56 PM
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Sideways
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Sheri, I wasn't trying to imply that SAHM's are "more noble" than women who are called to other paths in life. I was trying to give some props to those who do make that choice, often at great sacrifice. Maybe I used the wrong words.
Actually, I'm such a great supporter of women having the choice to work outside the home, that sometimes I have to be careful not to disparage women who do stay home. Maybe in my last post I was a little to careful.
It is a shame that the two groups of women - in and out of the home - often feel such guilt for their choices. There's no reason for it, and every reason for women as a whole to support each other, in all of their different choices. I praise God that we live in a time and place where we can choose. Not to long ago, our choices were SAHM, nurse, secretary, teacher and that's about it.
I agree with your last paragraph, though. Ms. Proverbs 31 does seem to be quite the wonder-woman. I wish I had her energy! 
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/22/2005 9:31:52 PM
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eeyore58
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Coheir
quote:
ORIGINAL: heatherer5
sometimes, women/mothers just can't help but work outside the home.
This is a prevailing sentiment in American evangelical Christian circles, and I don't agree with what this sentiment implies. It implies that women should work only because they have to. It implies that the scriptures talking about women being busy at home are the sum total of what women are to do, without taking into account the rest of scripture. It also assumes that all men have a calling unique to them - such as engineering, preaching, doctoring, plumbing, etc. - and all women have just one calling, and that is to be a wife/mother.
I posit here for your consideration:
Genesis 1:26-28 "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them , and said to them , 'Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
Also, the parable of the talents, Matthew 15:14-29.
I see two hermaneutics at work here when it comes to men's and women's roles. The first one we apply to men's roles ... we seize upon the cultural mandate to rule and subdue the earth given to all of mankind in Genesis and give men carte blanche to fulfull this mandate throughout all time, creatively and progressively, without restriction.
And to women, we use a different hermaneutic. We immediately begin applying limits on it. We point to verses such as those in Titus 2 and treat it as the sum total of woman's role, instead of viewing it as simply one aspect of godly womanhood. We totally forget about the sweeping cultural mandate in Genesis that God gave to both men and women.
I am not suggesting that anyone neglect their children nor their household responsibilities. We are created in the image of a Creator God. In that light, surely men and women can be a little more creative about caring for their homes and families (and using their God-given talents to the fullest) than the 1950's Ozzie and Harriet template. In the United States, especially, we have that great luxury - with home based businesses, telecommuting, entrepreneurship, etc. - and we should take advantage of it.
That was relieving to read. I've been married over 5 years, no kids, but we are still madly in love (maybe because no kids, lol!), but our marriage fits the partnership model totally. We make decisions together in everything. We come to agreement (which usually isn't too hard actually; we are very like-minded)--there's tremendous oneness and unity.
What I don't comprehend--and I know there's biblical premise for it--is the man being head of the woman. In our marriage we are complete equals, we are partners, we work to come to an agreement when there is a disagreement--so no one has to be the final decision maker--we work together. For us, this works beautifully, and I don't think either of us could imagine it any other way.
Anyone out there feel the same way?
As to taking care of the house vs. bread winner, my husband loves to cook, so he does 80 to 90% of cooking, and neither of us like to clean or really care too much (as long as it's not dirty--a little clutter is ok). Ever since we've been married, I've been the primary breadwinner b/c he is a perpetual student (working on his doctorate).
Works for us.
Actually, he'd be the better stay at home parent personality wise b/c he has the patience of Job, is naturally sweet, sensitive, a homebody, feels natural around kids--I'm the agreesive one, not so patient, NEED to be out of the house etc. He just smiles when I bring that up. I think after all he's invested in school . . . :-)
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/22/2005 9:52:52 PM
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lynnmoon
Posts: 225
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Sideways, very good thoughts!!! Especially this one.
quote:
It is a shame that the two groups of women - in and out of the home - often feel such guilt for their choices. There's no reason for it, and every reason for women as a whole to support each other, in all of their different choices. I praise God that we live in a time and place where we can choose. Not to long ago, our choices were SAHM, nurse, secretary, teacher and that's about it.
I do feel badly for people when it seems they have been somehow influenced by other people to feel substandard...then people try to encourage one group and the other feels put down. Or you try to encourage the other by someone putting the first down. It do think it's incredibly unfortunate. I think it would be wonderful if we could simply live as God as called us too, allow others to do the same, and encourage them as best we can wherever they find themselves in life rather it's where we would choose or not.
I do thank God that I've not felt the need to take on the burden of other people's opinions in that matter. I'd personally LOVE to be a SAHM and that was indeed my first choice. However, this is where I am right now. I'm actually very pleased with it for the most part. There are frustrations that come with it for sure, but I am sure that there would be frustrations that would come if I were home 24/7 as well...and so, I don't suffer that greener grass syndrome.
We've got to learn to live without a bunch of regrets in life. Pray, do what God has for you and be happy. I do think happier people will spend less time trying to make other folks feel miserable with thier own lives. But that's just my simple opinion.
_____________________________
Lynn
Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/23/2005 7:16:36 AM
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Coheir
Posts: 122
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: eeyore58
What I don't comprehend--and I know there's biblical premise for it--is the man being head of the woman. In our marriage we are complete equals, we are partners, we work to come to an agreement when there is a disagreement--so no one has to be the final decision maker--we work together. For us, this works beautifully, and I don't think either of us could imagine it any other way.
Anyone out there feel the same way?
You're reading modern meaning into the word "head." In the 1st century, the word "head" never carried the meaning of leader or authority. There are two other explanations that fit much more. The first is that head of/body of was a common metaphor of the time that was used for the concept of unity ... which really makes much more sense when you think of two people becoming one flesh. The other explanation is that head as used in Ephesians 5 means "source" or "origen." Since the culture at that time beleived that a person's life-giving force came from their head (and decisions and logic were seated in the heart), it also makes sense in the context of the Ephesians 5 verse.
We've been married 18 years, and there's never had to be a single "authority" here, not even as the "final decision maker if you can't decide." We're both grownups. We work things out.
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/23/2005 9:50:56 AM
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mammakfg
Posts: 1
Joined: 4/14/2005
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Prov 31:11-31
11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet
22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.
KJV
_____________________________
kim- mother of curtice (2 years) and joshua (9mo)
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/23/2005 10:15:06 AM
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29redballoons
Posts: 675
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Georgia
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I was a stay at home mother when my children were little, and I loved it, and believe that is what I was "called" to do at the time. But I know of other mothers who were not able to do that, through no fault of their own, and still others who don't even feel called to do that, and their children are just as well taken care of and just as much loved.
Keabird, I respectfully disagree with this statement. I agree that some women have no choice...because of the debt we have put ourselves into prior to having children;however, being called to stay home with small children...this is in my opinion a commandment (of sorts) not an option. If a woman is able to stay home and doesn't feel called, I believe with all due respect that it is selfishness and an out-of-order list of priorities...not a lack of calling.
disclaimer: I run a daycare from my home. I work, I homeschool, and yes, my child has been in daycare. So I am also talking about myself in the above paragraph. I see the plank in my eye.
May we all serve the Lord in the fullest of our abilities,
Red
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Red
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/23/2005 10:23:36 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1176
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mammakfg
Prov 31:11-31
11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet
22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.
KJV
Amen! 
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/23/2005 3:53:29 PM
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altarego
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[q]however, being called to stay home with small children...this is in my opinion a commandment (of sorts) not an option. If a woman is able to stay home and doesn't feel called, I believe with all due respect that it is selfishness and an out-of-order list of priorities...not a lack of calling. [/q]
Does this judgment apply to both sexes?
Can you back it up with Scripture?
< Message edited by altarego -- 4/23/2005 3:54:39 PM >
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/24/2005 4:08:27 AM
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Keabird
Posts: 695
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quote:
If a woman is able to stay home and doesn't feel called, I believe with all due respect that it is selfishness and an out-of-order list of priorities...not a lack of calling.
Also with all due respect *grin*, I feel this is in danger of being judgmental - only the Lord can know such a thing about someone's motives, heart and calling. Mothers are "called" to take good care of their children. I would suggest that every mother deep down knows the best way for them as an individual to do that - and it may not be the same "best" way for everyone.
Once again, I mention the "ideal" woman in Proverbs 31 - who was looking after her children while she was out and about, dealing in property, selling wares and shopping for more ... in that culture it was probably the servants, wouldn't you agree?
That aside, I can think immediately of a young mother I know - single mother - who is inclined to depression and finds that working outside the home is a great antidote to that. She loves her little girl very much and would always put her first, even before work. eg If the little girl gets sick, she stays home from work to look after her, at times that has been at risk of losing her job. But she also recognizes her own limitations and is able to "function" better as a mother if she has regular time out of the home, because of the tendency towards depression. She also would prefer to provide for her child rather than lean on the state, although there have been times when she has leaned on the state. Her little girl loves day care (not that she is there all the time) and is happy and well-adjusted. Being a single mother is not the "ideal", of course, so one might say that having sex outside of marriage was the selfish act - as that is what led to pregnancy - but now she has her child, and is trying to be the best mommy she can be, within her own abilities. Knowing this young mother as well as I so, I would say that it is far more unselfish of her and more in line with proper priorities to make sure she is taking care of herself mentally so that she can be a "healthier" mother to her child, rather than staying at home and getting further into depression. This is one of the challenges I had, in learning to recognize that not all mothers are called to be SAHM even if they CAN on a practical level - I had no problem staying at home, and wasn't inclined to depression. But I have learned to recognize that not everyone is the same, and God does not call all of us to the same method of dealing with life, including motherhood.
There are probably many other healthy and "in order" reasons why many mothers don't be SAHM. I don't think it is fair to suggest that selfishness must be a reason.
In Him, Sherri
_____________________________
"The thief comes to kill, steal and destroy, but I have come that you may have life and have it abundantly." John 10:10
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/24/2005 3:14:06 PM
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digex
Posts: 4
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Nebraska
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I've said it before. I think we seem to spend a lot of time "interpreting" or "bending" God's word to conform to todays society when we should be bending today's society to conform to God's word. The case can be made either way I suppose, but I think that the NT makes it very clear. If you don't agree, then "interpret" it however you want. We try to twist and meld the scripture to say what will be more justifying and convenient for us, when it should work the opposite way.
< Message edited by digex -- 4/24/2005 6:12:26 PM >
_____________________________
Psalm 103:
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
My Blog
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/24/2005 7:11:54 PM
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Coheir
Posts: 122
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: digex
I've said it before. I think we seem to spend a lot of time "interpreting" or "bending" God's word to conform to todays society when we should be bending today's society to conform to God's word. The case can be made either way I suppose, but I think that the NT makes it very clear. If you don't agree, then "interpret" it however you want. We try to twist and meld the scripture to say what will be more justifying and convenient for us, when it should work the opposite way.
Digex, if you truly believe this is correct, then I hope that you are indeed "bending today's society to conform to God's word" -- that you live out your life in witness to your belief that women with children should not work outside the home. I hope that your children are not in a school where there are female teachers with children still living at home. I hope that you do not attend a church that does not accept tithe money from any household where mothers work. I hope that when you take your children to the doctor, you do not accept medical care from any female nurses or doctors who may have small children at home. For if you do any of this, you are in fact actively participating in the "bending of God's word to conform to society."
< Message edited by Coheir -- 4/24/2005 7:14:37 PM >
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/24/2005 7:42:27 PM
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digex
Posts: 4
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Nebraska
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Coheir
quote:
ORIGINAL: digex
I've said it before. I think we seem to spend a lot of time "interpreting" or "bending" God's word to conform to todays society when we should be bending today's society to conform to God's word. The case can be made either way I suppose, but I think that the NT makes it very clear. If you don't agree, then "interpret" it however you want. We try to twist and meld the scripture to say what will be more justifying and convenient for us, when it should work the opposite way.
Digex, if you truly believe this is correct, then I hope that you are indeed "bending today's society to conform to God's word" -- that you live out your life in witness to your belief that women with children should not work outside the home. I hope that your children are not in a school where there are female teachers with children still living at home. I hope that you do not attend a church that does not accept tithe money from any household where mothers work. I hope that when you take your children to the doctor, you do not accept medical care from any female nurses or doctors who may have small children at home. For if you do any of this, you are in fact actively participating in the "bending of God's word to conform to society."
I don't remember stating any opinions whatsoever in my post, either for or against the topic, but thanks for the thoughts.
_____________________________
Psalm 103:
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
My Blog
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 4/24/2005 7:44:24 PM
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digex
Posts: 4
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Nebraska
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lynnmoon
quote:
ORIGINAL: digex
As a side note, I have also observed an interesting little tid-bit in this thread. Looking through, it seems like those few who have said anything that resembles "women should stay home" have received "votes against" on the little score thing. I'm amused about it. So now I know that if I want to run up my "score" (or my popularity I guess) all I need to do is post along with popular opinion and tell everyone what they want to hear. I'm stoked! I've finally found the secret!
I actually like that little thing. It gives an idea of how much I've torqued people off around here by speaking the truth. I do wish that it had a little thing that said who gave the feedback though, seems a little cowardly to me. It doesn't take much courage to click, ya know...
Or if the scores really matter to you and you want to rack them up you can just go to the score boosting threads...no big secret.
Oh and in this thread I have scored about 3 posts that I thought were well thought out. They weren't all three on the same side of the equation...but hey, if making assumptions about that sort of stuff makes you feel better, I can't stop you.
I wasn't aware of these threads, I think I'll visit them! And if you feel that my post applied to you, then I guess I don't know what to tell you. I didn't name names, how could I? I have no idea who scores what. I only said that it amused me. Sorry for the confusion.
_____________________________
Psalm 103:
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
My Blog
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