RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid?
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 6:40:26 PM
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pbaribeault
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Capitalism:
"An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market."
I don't see anything about capitalism that excludes the idea of governments, taxes or the use of tax money in ways that benefit some citizens.
In fact, redistribution encourages capitalism, because it gives private individuals money to spend on consumer goods that they would not otherwise be buying, thereby keeping the market system growing and healthy. Poverty is the enemy of capitalism, economically, so preventing poverty (also preventing frugal living) and keeping the money flowing by redistributing tax wealth is one of the best ways for a capitalistic society to make sure that it remains vital.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 8:32:31 PM
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bzirk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
quote:
Also, It's funny how nobody talked about this issue when you-all were wondering what to spend your 'economic stimulus' money on. Is it somehow different when everybody 'qualifies' for the 'program'?
I think it was talked about during the economic stimulus packages, but can you clarify what you mean?
For us, because we don't htink that the "economic stimulus" was a good idea, we would have gladly refused. However, there was not a way to opt out.
I recall it being talked about on this board. In fact, I know I was one of the people who thought and still thinks the stimulus package was a boneheaded idea.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 8:49:48 PM
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bzirk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
Capitalism:
"An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market."
I don't see anything about capitalism that excludes the idea of governments, taxes or the use of tax money in ways that benefit some citizens.
In fact, redistribution encourages capitalism, because it gives private individuals money to spend on consumer goods that they would not otherwise be buying, thereby keeping the market system growing and healthy. Poverty is the enemy of capitalism, economically, so preventing poverty (also preventing frugal living) and keeping the money flowing by redistributing tax wealth is one of the best ways for a capitalistic society to make sure that it remains vital.
Whoa. No, redistribution of wealth by the government is a tenet of socialism. Certainly, in a capitalistic society, there can be services given to those in need, and in a society that claims to be benevolent, it should happen. But history bears out that governments are not benevolent -- even our founders knew this and tried to take great precautions to prevent the government from having too much power over the people. But human nature doesn't change, and sadly, there are too many in our country who have become ignorant of the fact that personal responsibility and sacrifice are part of maintaining a free society. Sadly, we're going the way of all other nations down through history whose people looked to the government to take care of them instead of taking care of themselves -- certainly, I'm not talking about those people who truly cannot take care of themselves. I'm talking about the majority who can.
But we're all spoiled. We think something is wrong if we don't own a DVD player or have a cell phone or take a vacation out of town at least once every couple of years (or more often), or if we don't have our kids in activities that help them make a mark or if we don't have two cars in a family. The list goes on and on and on. Basically, we have let our good sense be overcome by marketing and all the freedom we've had to take advantage of it. So when we hit a rough spot or God forbid we have to wait on something, then we expect the government to fix it. What is really stupid is how people don't realize that the more government "fixes" things, the more in bondage we get. Someone has to pay for all that stuff, and people are dreamin' if they think it's just going to be the rich folks who foot the bill. For anyone who believes that, I have some nice land in Florida that I could sell to you.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 8:55:53 PM
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bzirk
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There is no need for the government to redistribute wealth. It is in the best interest of capitalists to sell their goods and services so that people can buy them. That's why prices go up and come down. That's how it's supposed to work anyway.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 11:35:39 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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Bzirk, 
You beat me to it, and gave a much clearer explanation then I could have...
quote:
In fact, redistribution encourages capitalism, because it gives private individuals money to spend on consumer goods that they would not otherwise be buying, thereby keeping the market system growing and healthy. Poverty is the enemy of capitalism, economically, so preventing poverty (also preventing frugal living) and keeping the money flowing by redistributing tax wealth is one of the best ways for a capitalistic society to make sure that it remains vital.
Redistribution actually, is the antithesis of capitalism.
Pbar, if you want to read about capitalism, I highly recommend "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand.
< Message edited by Mrs.Wifey -- 9/12/2008 11:43:45 PM >
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 11:40:07 PM
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relady
Posts: 1286
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quote:
I guess I feel personal about this, because I really do benefit a lot from the way Canada chooses to redistribute tax wealth to ease the challenges of families with youngsters. How difficult is it for an American to get a work visa for Canada? This has become a very serious discussion in our household of late.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/13/2008 1:31:09 AM
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bzirk
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I hope it goes without saying that seeking the Lord should be paramount in figuring out what views we hold -- whether it be political, economic or what have you. That aside, F.A. Hayek's books The Road to Serfdom is a good book to read.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/13/2008 1:36:53 AM
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bzirk
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BTW, I do think the government has a responsibility to hold sellers of goods and services responsible for deceptive practices. How far that goes depends on the situation.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/13/2008 11:17:56 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Also, It's funny how nobody talked about this issue when you-all were wondering what to spend your 'economic stimulus' money on. Is it somehow different when everybody 'qualifies' for the 'program'?
I did not read beyond this post so someone else may have corrected this false belief.
The checks were a "redistribution of wealth" checks. Not every one qualified or could recieve one. May who got checks were getting MORE money than they paid in taxes.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/13/2008 11:30:32 AM
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bzirk
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What I hate is that the checks put us further in debt. But why should I be surprised that a country that has become addicted and flat out drunk on credit would think anything about that?
When I think back to how I grew up -- doing without a lot of things, and how my parents sacrificed and sacrificed and sacrificed, I get sick when I look around today and the people think they are entitled to own a home and a car (two cars!). We lived in a cheap apartment for years in a bad part of town, and my mother had holes in her shoes for years and she did not wear nice clothing and my dad had to work four jobs and we often went without eating meat and ate such things as a pot of beans and cornbread for supper. We drove old cars and we didn't take vacations other than to visit relatives who lived 5 hours away. If there was anything beyond that, it was worked for diligently.
I also had to do a lot of walking when I was a little kid and a teen. My dad said it was good for me, and he was right. I think this lack of kids having to walk is one reason so many are overweight. They also drink too many sodas. I never had that as a kid except on special occasions.
My dad also said that life wasn't fair, and that I had to wait for things, and I needed to learn to accept that and do it with grace. He was so right about that too. It was having to wait and do without that's helped me tremendously as an adult. One of the chief perks is that I don't get embarrassed about doing without because my identity is not tied to my possessions. Sadly, this idea of possessions being identity is a pitfall of capitalism. What a shame, but certainly Christians should be able to overcome this foolishness.
EDIT:
Through all of the doing without as a kid, I never felt poor or that I was a victim. Thank you, Mom and Dad for not giving me that legacy.
< Message edited by bzirk -- 9/13/2008 11:51:40 AM >
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/13/2008 11:32:28 AM
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pbaribeault
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quote:
How difficult is it for an American to get a work visa for Canada? This has become a very serious discussion in our household of late. I don't know. I'm a citizen and so have never had to secure any kind of visa. There's probably some very informative website out there from our immigration department.
I do know that there are plenty of foreign workers here on a regular basis, and that in Alberta there are insane amounts of jobs looking for people (qualified and unqualified).
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/13/2008 12:01:58 PM
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P31W
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quote:
Through all of the doing without as a kid, I never felt poor or that I was a victim. Thank you, Mom and Dad for not giving me that legacy.
I stand with you! My parents did the same and I am greatly blessed because of it. My desire is to show my child and grandchildren that same lifestyle of personal sacrifice for the greater good.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/13/2008 12:50:25 PM
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macokjc
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I don't get it; if the government redistributes the wealth, why would people work? If the less I work, the more I get, why work at all?
The other thing mentioned was getting more money for putting your child in pre-school. I think that this is flat wrong. Hopefully there are similar credits if not better for actually keeping your children home.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/13/2008 8:51:11 PM
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pbaribeault
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People work because they have a work ethic, and because they don't like to live on the sustenance-level amount that the programs provide. You definitely get more by working than by not working!
The preschool-related money is only for families who can prove that they have one stay-at-home parent, presumably it is because those parents often would choose to avoid preschool as an expense they can't afford on one income. 2 income families don't qualify for that particular credit.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/13/2008 9:29:48 PM
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10SNE1?
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 10SNE1?
Ok, according to my quickly done and totally unscientific look at the websites of several government agencies which distribute food products through the WIC program:
The average value of a monthly WIC distribution is $50.00
I'm sorry but my 17yo daughter could easily make $50.00 babysitting tonight.
I didn't get to finish my thought, sorry, probably shouldn't have hit the "oK" button.
My point was...if you are a SAHM or a husband/father who is not busting his butt working an extra job...how in the world can you sit there and tell me it is "OK' for you to take $50- $100 worth of gov't provided food every month?
Making a hundred bucks a month could be as simple as babysitting a neighbor kid once a week for a few hours.
It is truly shocking to me that in three generations...my parents to the contemporaries of my adult children.... we have gone from able-bodied adults who would go to extra-ordinary lengths to avoid taking charity or "being on the dole" to this entitlement mentality and total lack of shame in taking hand-outs instead of working an odd job.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/13/2008 10:09:37 PM
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pbaribeault
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I think gratitude is a more appropreate and godly reaction to a legitimate "hand out" than shame would be.
I am very grateful to live in a society that "hands out" free basic healthcare (by funding it collectively through taxes according to income) and that "hands out" a helpful amount of cash to ease the challenges of families with young children. I also appreciate that it "hands out" access to free basic education, while not confining people to that option. Plus it "hands out" other things: from roads to emergency services to a justice system.
These "hand outs" show that our society has got together to put money towards the things we value. If we value those who are raising children enough to pay them for it, how is that a problem for anyone?
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/13/2008 10:42:56 PM
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relady
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quote:
I am very grateful to live in a society that "hands out" free basic healthcare (by funding it collectively through taxes according to income) and that "hands out" a helpful amount of cash to ease the challenges of families with young children. I also appreciate that it "hands out" access to free basic education, while not confining people to that option. Plus it "hands out" other things: from roads to emergency services to a justice system.
These "hand outs" show that our society has got together to put money towards the things we value. If we value those who are raising children enough to pay them for it, how is that a problem for anyone?
My greatest hope would be to live long enough to see America move toward being such a society. In the meantime, a work visa to Canada is looking better all the time. 
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/14/2008 1:18:19 AM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
I think gratitude is a more appropreate and godly reaction to a legitimate "hand out" than shame would be.
I am very grateful to live in a society that "hands out" free basic healthcare (by funding it collectively through taxes according to income) and that "hands out" a helpful amount of cash to ease the challenges of families with young children. I also appreciate that it "hands out" access to free basic education, while not confining people to that option. Plus it "hands out" other things: from roads to emergency services to a justice system.
These "hand outs" show that our society has got together to put money towards the things we value. If we value those who are raising children enough to pay them for it, how is that a problem for anyone?
Why should *I*, pay more in taxes towards a welfare system(or socialism) just because I have worked harder to make a good life for myself and my family? Roads, EMTs, a justice system, police... those are things I don't mind paying for via taxes. I don't even mind helping a family in an interim situation HOWEVER I do not think it is my responsibility to pay for someone else to continue having children when they KNOW they don't have the proper health insurance or the money to do so. Because if they qualify for medicaid then they are probably also getting other forms of assistance in the long term.
The initiation of force in order to make someone surrender private property(money) is evil. Taxes are essentially the initiation of evil backed by "the gun"(jail). Why should I be forced to contribute? Why not allow people to contribute on their own? Who is the better judge of where your money should go? You or the government and should it really be their decision?
My money does best when it's in my possession, for me to invest and disburse using my own judgment.
< Message edited by Mrs.Wifey -- 9/14/2008 1:26:27 AM >
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/14/2008 9:35:22 AM
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pbaribeault
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quote:
Why should *I*, pay more in taxes towards a welfare system(or socialism) just because I have worked harder to make a good life for myself and my family? Roads, EMTs, a justice system, police... those are things I don't mind paying for via taxes. I don't even mind helping a family in an interim situation HOWEVER I do not think it is my responsibility to pay for someone else to continue having children when they KNOW they don't have the proper health insurance or the money to do so. Because if they qualify for medicaid then they are probably also getting other forms of assistance in the long term.
The initiation of force in order to make someone surrender private property(money) is evil. Taxes are essentially the initiation of evil backed by "the gun"(jail). Why should I be forced to contribute? Why not allow people to contribute on their own? Who is the better judge of where your money should go? You or the government and should it really be their decision?
The answer to this question comes back to the original concept that I introduced: the basic covenant that a society forms when it forms a government in the first place. For better or worse, America chose a representative democracy... meaning that you chose to elect officials to make decisions about taxation for you. This was meant as a mechanism to express the will of 'the people' through majority rule. An absolutley critical part of this covenant is that even when the minority of persons disagree with the will of the majority, that all will live peaceably under the will of that majority.
The reason you should abide by the decisions of the majority of your fellow citizens is because that is the way your society works. It is the basic covenant of your society and you are morally bound to uphold it. If the majority of your fellow citizens are taking your country in a direction that you don't like, I don't know what to tell you -- except that no worthy citizen of a democracy has to be threatened with a gun or jail to ensure that they live peaceably within the plans and constructs that have been legitimately made through the democratic process.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/14/2008 10:33:50 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 10SNE1?
quote:
ORIGINAL: 10SNE1?
Ok, according to my quickly done and totally unscientific look at the websites of several government agencies which distribute food products through the WIC program:
The average value of a monthly WIC distribution is $50.00
I'm sorry but my 17yo daughter could easily make $50.00 babysitting tonight.
I didn't get to finish my thought, sorry, probably shouldn't have hit the "oK" button.
My point was...if you are a SAHM or a husband/father who is not busting his butt working an extra job...how in the world can you sit there and tell me it is "OK' for you to take $50- $100 worth of gov't provided food every month?
Making a hundred bucks a month could be as simple as babysitting a neighbor kid once a week for a few hours.
It is truly shocking to me that in three generations...my parents to the contemporaries of my adult children.... we have gone from able-bodied adults who would go to extra-ordinary lengths to avoid taking charity or "being on the dole" to this entitlement mentality and total lack of shame in taking hand-outs instead of working an odd job.
The work ethic has definitely waned. By today's standards almost every adult I knew in my youth was a workaholic. Yet parents spent more time with their families in those days -- at least that was the case with the middle class people I grew up with. Even my dad who worked three or four jobs my entire childhood spent a lot of time with me and my brother. So even this idea of working less today in order to spend more time with kids doesn't make sense to me. I will admit that there were A LOT less single parent families, and that is part of it today. No question.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/14/2008 10:42:19 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
I am very grateful to live in a society that "hands out" free basic healthcare (by funding it collectively through taxes according to income) and that "hands out" a helpful amount of cash to ease the challenges of families with young children. I also appreciate that it "hands out" access to free basic education, while not confining people to that option. Plus it "hands out" other things: from roads to emergency services to a justice system.
These "hand outs" show that our society has got together to put money towards the things we value. If we value those who are raising children enough to pay them for it, how is that a problem for anyone?
My greatest hope would be to live long enough to see America move toward being such a society.
Do you think it's going to be achieved through force by a government born of people who are having more and more trouble acknowledging the Lord?
This post is pointlesss. I think I'm done for a while trying to make a case to someone like you who appears to be a socialist at heart. How can I say that? Because over the years you have made it plain that the government is our ultimate safety net, our ultimate provider. That is anathema to the ideals of freedom.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/14/2008 11:01:36 AM
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bzirk
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I hope the moderator lets my post stand since it is not a tos violation. I'm merely pointing out that relady has a socialistic viewpoint. If we want to debate what that is, I'll be happy to do it in another thread.
To bring this back to topic, IMO, the general answer to a Christian being on any form of welfare, is that it depends on the situation. It's fine if it's someone who truly cannot help themselves either permanently or temporarily.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/14/2008 1:34:32 PM
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macokjc
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I think you are comparing apples and oranges when you talk about Canada and the US. I wish I had more time to research it much more; but from what I have studied in the past things in the two countries are vastly different. Things like: population, illegal immigrants, quality of healthcare, educational systems, foreign aid, foreign dependency, there are many more that I could list.
The taxation and welfare systems seem to be vastly different, so I don't think it had any merit to the original post.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/14/2008 5:15:27 PM
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pbaribeault
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So the original post was only to ask if American Christians should be on welfare or accept government support? I must have misunderstood. I thought this was a question open to Christians from a variety of countries. The merit I saw was in pointing out how different countries choose to use government programs, to see why and how some are shameful and others are ordinary.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/14/2008 5:55:23 PM
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GregandJenny
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From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
So the original post was only to ask if American Christians should be on welfare or accept government support?
No I think that sometimes people forget that this forum covers many different countries. I do appreciate your insight!
G
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It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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