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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/8/2008 4:14:55 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
If you find a person professing to be a Christian but living in flagrant, unconfessed and unrepented sin, they are a liar, a fraud, a counterfeit, a tare.
I totally agree with you here JimboFletch. The problem I have with the vast majority of OSAS Churches is; How many of them tell their congregants that truth you posted vs. those that tell the church that "We all sin and god forgives you and if you are saved; no problem.
The truth is that many of the OSAS folks end up teaching security to a room full of lost folks, and that is more than sad.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/8/2008 4:29:39 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
If you find a person professing to be a Christian but living in flagrant, unconfessed and unrepented sin, they are a liar, a fraud, a counterfeit, a tare.
I totally agree with you here JimboFletch. The problem I have with the vast majority of OSAS Churches is; How many of them tell their congregants that truth you posted vs. those that tell the church that "We all sin and god forgives you and if you are saved; no problem.
The truth is that many of the OSAS folks end up teaching security to a room full of lost folks, and that is more than sad.
Thanks
RC
RC, FWIW, I learned what I posted in a Southern Baptist church. I've now been there 22 years and I have yet to hear a sermon or teacher suggest that one can be comfortable in sin and have any assurance of being saved. In fact, the most stirring message I ever heard on the topic, "Wheat or Tare" challenged to foolish notion of salvation based on getting dunked, joining the church, saying a "sinners" prayer, even being a deacon or minister if no repentance and a new birth occurred with fruit of the indwelling Spirit.
Jesus doesn't wash pigs and release them to return to the mire. No, He changes them into sheep that serve the Master.
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/8/2008 5:53:16 PM
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drfuss
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drfuss: Just a reminder that this thread assumes "Once Saved, Always Saved" is correct. We should not be trying to prove that eternal security is correct or incorrect on this thread. We should only be talking about types and comparisons of "Once Saved, Always Saved" beliefs.
I am just trying to keep this on track so the Moderator will not transfer this to another thread.
Many Christians that do not believe in eternal security and are not familiar with it, assume Charles Stanley's belief is the only eternal security belief. That is what I assumed until I started attending a SBC church 16 years ago.
So far, we have three types of "Once Saved, Always Saved" beliefs.
1. Calvinists
2. A True Christian will continue trusting in Christ
3. Charles Stanleys
Are there other "Once Saved, Always Saved" type beliefs?
Do you consider #1 & #2 to be the same even though they are justified differently?
< Message edited by drfuss -- 9/8/2008 6:40:55 PM >
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/8/2008 7:15:26 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
So far, we have three types of "Once Saved, Always Saved" beliefs.
1. Calvinists
2. A True Christian will continue trusting in Christ
3. Charles Stanleys
Are there other "Once Saved, Always Saved" type beliefs?
Do you consider #1 & #2 to be the same even though they are justified differently?
Well I heard an SBC evangelist ministering in an SBC Church in Rio Hondo Texas prockaim that one could be in the arms of adultery, die, and wake up in the arms of Jesus.
So I guess I would call the folks that adhere to this policy as "Hyper 5th Point Calvinist".
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/8/2008 8:51:33 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
Please check my earlier post giving Charles Stanley's example concerning a Christian who was converted to the Muslim religion.
Please check my earlier reply to your post giving example concerning another saved person, King Solomon, who was converted to the heathen religion.
_____________________________
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 6:43:44 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
So I guess I would call the folks that adhere to this policy as "Hyper 5th Point Calvinist". I am still having a hard time reconciling what I know of OSAS and Calvinism. They seem very different to me.
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 6:55:05 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
A "License to Sin" is a fantasy in the minds of Arminian extremists that have no interest in understanding Perseverance of the Saints. "Licence to sin" is the fantasy of anyone - calvinist, arminianm, OSAS or other that wants to be dishonest in their walk with the Lord.
I have heard many say (non perseverence/osas) that you can do what you want, pray for forgiveness afterward and everything is ok. Some have even went so far as to say that you can ask for forgiveness BEFORE you intentionally sin (Lord forgive me for having sex with whatever prostitute I can find tonight, and don't let her charge too much...) and everything is ok and covered.
WRONG!!!!!!
On these boards I have heard some propose that once you are "saved" you can do anything and it is not sin. (probably the preacher RC referenced was one of these)
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 8:45:26 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
On these boards I have heard some propose that once you are "saved" you can do anything and it is not sin. (probably the preacher RC referenced was one of these)
You may have, Dave, but it wasn't someone who has bothered to study the doctrine - and probably is only a "tare."
Just like on the Arminian side when I was there over 3 decades. I knew lots of folks that believed in repeated regeneration and professed to having been saved several times in any given week. They spoke in ignorance and, often, from not having experienced true regeneration in the first place. For the denomination where I came from, the doctrine was Once an Apostate, Always an Apostate. However, lots of pew warmers (even a few unlearned preachers) believed in multiple rebirths, but that did not make it the position of the denomination.
So, there are the ignorant and the tares on both sides of the Eternal Life issue.
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 8:58:05 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
So I guess I would call the folks that adhere to this policy as "Hyper 5th Point Calvinist". I am still having a hard time reconciling what I know of OSAS and Calvinism. They seem very different to me.
The fifth point of Calvinism is the "Prservation of the Saints" or OSAS.
Now on the other four points most OSAS do disagree.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 8:59:49 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
So far, we have three types of "Once Saved, Always Saved" beliefs.
1. Calvinists
2. A True Christian will continue trusting in Christ
3. Charles Stanleys
1. I can see why Calvinists believe in eternal security since they believe people have no say in their own salvation anyway. It's all God!
2. I seems to me quite presumptuous to say of a person who falls away that they were never saved to begin with. Almost seems to put one in the position of being the judge of another. So, while I agree that one who continues to trust in Christ is a true Christian, I'm not entirely certain that we can say that one who falls away was never a true Christian.
3. This is the form of eternal security that I've always been taught, even in the Southern Baptist Church that I currently attend. They teach that just as a child of an earthly father will always be that father's child no matter what they do, so a child of God will always be God's child no matter what they do.
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The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 9:37:58 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
So I guess I would call the folks that adhere to this policy as "Hyper 5th Point Calvinist". I am still having a hard time reconciling what I know of OSAS and Calvinism. They seem very different to me.
The fifth point of Calvinism is the "Prservation of the Saints" or OSAS.
Now on the other four points most OSAS do disagree.
Thanks
RC
Most Calvinists blanche whenever they hear OSAS for the same reasons mentioned by others before. They associate it which cheap-easy-believe-ism where a person comes down an aisle, recite the "sinner's prayer," get dunked, and, then, live like the devil. The doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints is just that, the continuation in the faith by the reborn reddemed - not a continuation in the world by the religious ungodly unregenerate.
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 9:41:54 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
If you find a person professing to be a Christian but living in flagrant, unconfessed and unrepented sin, they are a liar, a fraud, a counterfeit, a tare.
Amen!!
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)
Everlasting life is not something you get when you die. Everlasting life is something you get when you receive Jesus. If I have everlasting life, when can it end? Suppose I had it 10 years and it ended. Did I have everlasting life? No, I had a 10-year life. Whatever you have, if you ever lose it, whatever it was it wasn't everlasting.
The Lord Jesus Christ is ever interceding for you.
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given Me; for they are Thine. (John 17:9)
Jesus also prayed: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil...Neither pray Ifor these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" (John 17:15, 20). Say your name in that verse because Jesus prayed for you! Has Jesus ever prayed a prayer that wasn't answered? No, not one (see John 11:42 and Hebrews 7:25).
Some people say, "Well, if I believed in this doctrine, then I'd get saved and I'd sin all I want to."
Friend, I sin all I want to. I sin more than I want to. I don't want to! When you get saved you get your wanter fixed. As a matter of fact, you get a brand new wanter.
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 9:42:52 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
2. I seems to me quite presumptuous to say of a person who falls away that they were never saved to begin with. Almost seems to put one in the position of being the judge of another. So, while I agree that one who continues to trust in Christ is a true Christian, I'm not entirely certain that we can say that one who falls away was never a true Christian.
But, GD, the Arminian will fight tooth & nail to claim a drunken adulterer as a onetime brother who was blood-bought, redeemed, born again, baptized into the Kingdom, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit o God but, somehow, chose to return to the pig sty as unchanged swine and to his own vomit as unconverted dog. Personally, it's beyond me how someone gloriously saved by God the Son would ever be drawn back to Satan. And I know longer care to claim kinship to him.
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 10:46:32 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
But, GD, the Arminian will fight tooth & nail to claim a drunken adulterer as a onetime brother who was blood-bought, redeemed, born again, baptized into the Kingdom, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit o God but, somehow, chose to return to the pig sty as unchanged swine and to his own vomit as unconverted dog. Personally, it's beyond me how someone gloriously saved by God the Son would ever be drawn back to Satan. And I know longer care to claim kinship to him.
I agree that a person such as you describe probably wasn't very serious about a commitment to Jesus. But I'm just not comfortable saying with certainty that they were never saved to begin with. I kinda think that would be God's call, not mine. But I also agree that I would not care to claim kinship with such a person either. 
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 10:53:31 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Friend, I sin all I want to. I sin more than I want to. I don't want to! When you get saved you get your wanter fixed. As a matter of fact, you get a brand new wanter.
Actually its a lovely quote from Adrian Rogers, thanks for bringing it up. the quick overview of the sermon very related to the subject.
He is by the way, non calvinist.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 10:57:45 AM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
Dr Stanley is also saying that even if a Christian stops trusting Christ; and is not trusting Christ when he dies, that unbelieving person will still go to heaven. I think most, if not all, other evangelical beliefs say you must be trusting Christ when you die, to go to heaven.
Other eternal security beliefs say a True Christian will not stop trusting Christ, therefore he will be trusting Christ when he dies and will go to heaven. Dr. Stanley believes that a Ture Christian can stop trusting Christ.
I was under the impression that in most ES beliefs, "Once a son, always a son" means "once believing, always believing". Or at least the Christian will be believing when he dies so he will go to heaven. However, I could be wrong. Can anyone help me on this?
Sure. Solomon was saved but when he became old he stopped being a believer. He turned to other gods.
Did he died in that condition? We dont know. Some like to speculate he repented before death.
What if he didnt? What if he would have died before repenting, while still in the midst of building temples for various goddesses and gods?
You know , of a heart attack ;)- overestimating the potential of little blue pill and underestimating the occupational hazard of an old gizzar owning and widely using a harem?
The thing is that we are still capable of sin even if saved. I agree with eathless that if it was up to me i would have lost salvation on the same day i was saved, way before lunch.
drfuss: Odeliya writes: "Please check my earlier reply to your post giving example concerning another saved person, King Solomon, who was converted to the heathen religion."
Odeliya, I did not respond to your post (above) about Solomon because I did not know where you were going with it and I did not want to prompt any discussion that would lead to debating if eternal security is correct or not. This thread is not for that.
However concerning Solomon, we do not know that Solomon stopped believing. I think Solomon wrote the Book of Ecclesiastes late in his life which definitely indicated a belief in God, see the last chapter. I Kings 11 indicated that Solomon's wives turned his heart after other Gods and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God. It does not say Solomon stopped believing. He certainly fell into continual sin and was not living for the Lord. I suppose whether you consider falling into continual sin is not believing, depends on which version of ES you believe.
However, this raises another question. ES is generally supported using New Testament scriptures. Does ES also apply to the Jews under the law? Could a difference on this issue be another (4th) variation in ES?
What about it? Are there eternal security Christians that believe the Jews under the law are not covered by ES? Are there those who do believe they are covered?
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 11:16:44 AM
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Odeliya
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lucky man you are, Earthie. He must have been an incredible teacher. 
May we all meet at the feet of our Lord one day and enjoy our fellowship all together again .
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 11:27:45 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
A "License to Sin" is a fantasy in the minds of Arminian extremists that have no interest in understanding Perseverance of the Saints. When I couldn't attack Perseverance rationally, I'd revert to the false accusation of "License to Sin" - and did so for more than 3 decades of my life.
If you find a person professing to be a Christian but living in flagrant, unconfessed and unrepented sin, they are a liar, a fraud, a counterfeit, a tare.
I agree with you in that thought.
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 11:29:46 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
However concerning Solomon, we do not know that Solomon stopped believing.
Drfuss you rascal!
Solomon was turned to other gods, he was building temples and worshipping heathen gods.
If that still qualifies him as a believer in your book, dear friend, I truly hope your views about faithfulness in marriage to one woman are not as , hmm… liberal
quote:
Does ES also apply to the Jews under the law? Could a difference on this issue be another (4th) variation in ES?What about it? Are there eternal security Christians that believe the Jews under the law are not covered by ES? Are there those who do believe they are covered?
When i was a Jew under the Law i didnt concern myself about eternal salvation and its security :) in the way and the terms that Chrisrtian thought treats the issue.
Jews dont see salvation in the same sense. We are worried about being good, lead a life pleasing to God, but eternal judgement is left to Him. The election of us as children is seen as given, and not have to be proven, as you dont concern yourself with proving you are your parents child. We believe that God will be good and faithful to his promises and we just ought to be obedient.
the whole teshuva-tzedakah blah blah concept of repentance regardless of whatever you 've done and possibility of getting a forgiveness if sincerely turn away from sin is probably similar to
christian repentance. But if you asking about Judasim then as far as it's concepts are from christian understanding of the issue, ES probably wont be applicable to judaistic beliefs.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 12:28:50 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
However concerning Solomon, we do not know that Solomon stopped believing.
Drfuss you rascal!
Solomon was turned to other gods, he was building temples and worshipping heathen gods.
If that still qualifies him as a believer in your book, dear friend, I truly hope your views about faithfulness in marriage to one woman are not as , hmm… liberal
quote:
Does ES also apply to the Jews under the law? Could a difference on this issue be another (4th) variation in ES?What about it? Are there eternal security Christians that believe the Jews under the law are not covered by ES? Are there those who do believe they are covered?
When i was a Jew under the Law i didnt concern myself about eternal salvation and its security :) in the way and the terms that Chrisrtian thought treats the issue.
Jews dont see salvation in the same sense. We are worried about being good, lead a life pleasing to God, but eternal judgement is left to Him. The election of us as children is seen as given, and not have to be proven, as you dont concern yourself with proving you are your parents child. We believe that God will be good and faithful to his promises and we just ought to be obedient.
the whole teshuva-tzedakah blah blah concept of repentance regardless of whatever you 've done and possibility of getting a forgiveness if sincerely turn away from sin is probably similar to
christian repentance. But if you asking about Judasim then as far as it's concepts are from christian understanding of the issue, ES probably wont be applicable to judaistic beliefs.
drfuss: Odeliya, apparently you believe that there will be evidence of a Christain believing, or he is not believing. That's fine. I think there are other ES Christians that may consider continued belief without any evidence as being sufficient. The purpose here is to define all of the ES beliefs.
Concerning the Jews under the law, my question was not what the Jews believed. My question was: Do any ES Christians believe that ES applied to the Jews under the law? If we are going to use Old Testament Jews as examples for ES, then this question comes up.
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 1:34:53 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
But, GD, the Arminian will fight tooth & nail to claim a drunken adulterer as a onetime brother who was blood-bought, redeemed, born again, baptized into the Kingdom, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit o God but, somehow, chose to return to the pig sty as unchanged swine and to his own vomit as unconverted dog. Personally, it's beyond me how someone gloriously saved by God the Son would ever be drawn back to Satan. And I know longer care to claim kinship to him.
And again I agree with you JinboFletch, I do not know how anyone who has tasted the goodnes of God and been indwelt by the Holy Spirit could reject the same.
The problem is with teling lthose who may not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit that they are, and most of the OSAS folks in this area and elsewhere I have been in my long and lustrious life do, and encourage folks to rely one "That Moment you were Saved", when that moment may have been Godly sorrow, family induced, or a sugar low from all the drinking of the night before; but very possibly not "Salvation".
This preaching "Security" to a room full of lost folks is what gets my tidy whities all in a knot.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 2:08:32 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Just like on the Arminian side when I was there over 3 decades. I knew lots of folks that believed in repeated regeneration and professed to having been saved several times in any given week. They spoke in ignorance and, often, from not having experienced true regeneration in the first place. For the denomination where I came from, the doctrine was Once an Apostate, Always an Apostate. However, lots of pew warmers (even a few unlearned preachers) believed in multiple rebirths, but that did not make it the position of the denomination. The church I grew up in believed it was only possible to be saved a few seconds at a time, no matter how sincere you were how much faith you had, etc.
From one evangelist/preacher on a sunday pm:
You can come down here to this altar tonight and get everything right with God. You can get up, grab your coat and cross the street to get into your car, get hit, die and go straight to hell because you committed 20 sins that you know absolutely nothing about before you ever even hit the door.
The next week the pastor quipped that he should have a 6 gun to blow people away while they were still on their knees......
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Charles Stanley' Eternal Security - 9/9/2008 2:16:09 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
But, GD, the Arminian will fight tooth & nail to claim a drunken adulterer as a onetime brother who was blood-bought, redeemed, born again, baptized into the Kingdom, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit o God but, somehow, chose to return to the pig sty as unchanged swine and to his own vomit as unconverted dog. Personally, it's beyond me how someone gloriously saved by God the Son would ever be drawn back to Satan. And I know longer care to claim kinship to him.
And again I agree with you JinboFletch, I do not know how anyone who has tasted the goodnes of God and been indwelt by the Holy Spirit could reject the same.
The problem is with teling lthose who may not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit that they are, and most of the OSAS folks in this area and elsewhere I have been in my long and lustrious life do, and encourage folks to rely one "That Moment you were Saved", when that moment may have been Godly sorrow, family induced, or a sugar low from all the drinking of the night before; but very possibly not "Salvation".
This preaching "Security" to a room full of lost folks is what gets my tidy whities all in a knot.
Thanks
RC
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