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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/9/2008 1:25:20 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1967
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quote:
JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw/helkuo him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
DR… then how do you interpret the verse that you quoted? Is not drawing the same as God intervening in someone’s life and focusing their attention on Christ…could not that be whacking someone?
Or maybe you see the verse as meaning something else entirely different.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/9/2008 1:40:18 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Bob,
quote:
Is not drawing the same as God intervening in someone’s life and focusing their attention on Christ…could not that be whacking someone?
That is exactly how I interpret that verse. I believe that we are incapable of coming to Him totally of our own initiative.
If we do then we are not 'lost sheep' needing to be found by the shepherd, we are 'lost sheep' seeking to find the shepherd.
LUK 19:10 For the Son of man came to seek and to save the lost."
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 9/9/2008 1:51:46 PM >
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/9/2008 2:21:13 PM
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bob97
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Amen DR...we agree on something. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/9/2008 4:50:31 PM
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frankman
Posts: 213
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
Right on! Heb.9:27 states "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment."
Yes we face judgment but does it only mean only retribution? Is God only interested in retribution? Is that what Jesus taught? Jesus who is the exact image of God, is that what he taught?
Does "love your enemy" mean retribution? After all Jesus has the keys to hell.
 Do I understand your question correctly? Allow me to quote the following verse as an example. John 3:18 "Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God`s One and Only Son." Your question is, is the condemnation that Jesus is talking about here retribition? In a way it is retribution because the consequences of our sin is eternal death. We all deserve eternal condemnation. Now to your next question. Is God only interested in retribuution? No! God is only interested in graciously rescueing us from the wrath to come. That is why He sent His Son to die for us on the cross, so that those who receive His forgiveness by believing in His name may not be condemned but have eternal life. 2 Peter 3:9 states "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." God is in the business of saving us, not giving us what we deserve, which is eternal condemnation.
In Post#1 you mentioned that one view of hell may be Universalism. However because of verses like John 3:18 etc. we can scrap the idea that all people will finally be saved and end up in heaven. We know the Bible teaches differently and warns the unbeliever to repent for judgment is a coming.
So let`s look at your other two views. Does hell mean annihilation? Some believe that the Greek word "APOLLUMI" or the English word "DESTROYED" means to annihilate. However there isn`t a single instance in the New Testament were the Greek word "APOLLUMI" means annihilation. The Greek-English Lexicon defines the word "DESTRUCTION" as to be delivered up to eternal misery.
Until a few years ago all Evangelical Christians believed in an eternal hell. Only unbelievers and cults did not believe. Only recently with the emergence of the popular emerging and Liberal doctrine and their failure to reconcile hell with the love of God has the annihilation theory become popular. However let`s be careful here. What`s popular may not always be right. It could be full of  .
Your third view, hell is the eternal existence of the devil and his angels and all those whose names are not written in the Book of Life seems to line up with what Scripture teaches. You already mentioned Matt.25:46 and the word eternal applying to both heaven and hell. If one is forever then the other must also be forever. The O.T. also taught this doctrine in Dan.12:2. "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." Rev.14:10 and Rev.20:10+15 also seem to indicate that the souls in hell will not burn up, but will be there forever and ever and ever.
< Message edited by frankman -- 9/9/2008 5:36:46 PM >
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/10/2008 6:04:57 AM
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Thessa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
No i'm not mormon. Mormons don't believe in hell only different levels of heaven. I thought i was clear but in case i was'nt, it's clear to me that the lake of fire will be a reality on judgment day. What i was interested in was whether there is any other purpose to it then retribution.
I became a believer 6 years ago and before that i had heard the name Jesus Christ but i had no understanding of who he is because no one ever explained him to me. So if i would have died 7 years ago according to you i would be in hell eternally.
Yes you are correct. So im glad you came to know who Jesus is. Im really thankful you opened urself up to Him. 
And yes they do believe in Hell. I talked to one. I told you. She thought that a person could not believe in Jesus at all and sin all their lives and still go to Heaven anyways. She said that people dont go to Hell. She was wrong. She is creating a false God for herself so she will feel better. Thats called idolatry. Not ever a good idea.
quote:
Throughout the dark ages the Roman Catholic Church had possession of almost all the bibles in existence so 99% of the world's population had no idea who Christ was. Is salvation like a casino game where you have to be born at the right place and time to even hear the gospel or perhaps you just believe God elects certain folks to be saved?
I know that you are new to this and its alright to ask questions and to learn. Im not new to this, but like i said there are still many things i dont know yet. But i do know about this. I do know about Heaven and Hell.
What i dont know is why you are making a joke about this. I dont know why you are comparing salvation to a casino game. Its actually very insulting to the word to even hear such a comparison. Again i will say to you - God makes it VERY CLEAR in the bible how a person gets to Heaven. And also how they get to Hell. Not everyone has to believe it - thats why He gave us free will. We make our own decisions. We send ourselves to Heaven, or Hell, and we also make a decision on wanting to be saved or not. If you choose not to believe this then you are doing it with your eyes open. But i really really really want you to stop making jokes and start understanding what so many people on here are trying to say. Because this is the most important decision you will EVER make.
Here are some verses that tell exactly how a person gets to Heaven. If a person dosent do this, then they go to Hell. Its really simple.
(Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
That means that you cant get there just by doing good works.
(I John 5:12)He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Very self explanatory.
(Romans 10:13)Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Romans 10:9)That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
One of the most compelling ways to understand this is through the 10 Commandments. God judges us by those laws.
If we are guilty of ANY of them we will be judged according to His will.
Its not your way. You wont get to Heaven by thinking you should. Im sure that on Judgement Day God isnt going to say "well tell me - what did you think of urself...?"
Its not about what we think of ourselves. Its about living the will of God. Its about doing things HIS WAY. If a person thinks its not okay to go to Hell even if they did reject Him their whole life but they gave to the homeless - oh well. Its not up to US how we get there. But it is up to US if we do. God dosent grade on a curve. He wont say 'well since you didnt do as many bad things as someone else - you get to go'.
Or 'well you didnt believe in me or heed to my word, but since you didnt kill anyone you get to go".
God dosent work like that. How do i know? Because ive read the bible verses that say so.
Everyone has sinned, and no one is good enough to get to heaven on their own (Romans 3:23). Getting into heaven is not based on whether our good outweighs our bad; we will all lose out if that is the case. "And if they are saved by God's kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God's wonderful kindness would not be what it really is - free and undeserved" (Romans 11:6). We can do nothing good to earn our way to heaven (Titus 3:5).
"You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way" (Matthew 7:13). Even if everyone is living a life of sin, and trusting in God is not popular, God will not excuse it. "You used to live just like the rest of the world, full of sin, obeying Satan, the mighty prince of the power of the air. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God" (Ephesians 2:2).
John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/10/2008 9:31:05 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
What i dont know is why you are making a joke about this. I dont know why you are comparing salvation to a casino game. Its actually very insulting to the word to even hear such a comparison.
Hi, I've been reading along here and I really don't think he's making a joke. If a person born and raised in the Bible Belt has a better chance of being Christian than a person born and raised in a remote village of Pakistan, and that really is the deciding factor between heaven and hell, then the analogy makes sense.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/10/2008 11:01:59 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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From: Kansas
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Frankman,
quote:
God is in the business of saving us, not giving us what we deserve, which is eternal condemnation
Your above post is true. And we are of the opinion that God will complete His business. We believe He had a business plan for the salvation of the whole world. That includes everyone who ever lived before Jesus was born (so when are they going to call upon the name of the Lord?). What salvation business plan do you preach concerning those in the OT clear back to the time of the Tower of Babel when God's business had Him change tongues and divide the whole world. What offer of salvation do they have with your idea of God's business plan to save the 'world He so loved'?
I agree with John 3:18, so tell me when are all the people who ever lived that never heard the name, gospel going to have that chance to "believe in Him"? What's your answer?
quote:
We know the Bible teaches differently and warns the unbeliever to repent for judgment is a coming.
The bible also warns 'the believer' concerning judgment. So I guess judgment must mean the church is going to hell for eternity in your opinion too? Or is the purpose of 'this judgment' to break rebellion within the church, just like His judgment for those who don't/can't believe in this age?
1PE 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
quote:
Until a few years ago all Evangelical Christians believed in an eternal hell.
Universalism has its roots going way beyond the current thinking of 'the church' today. It goes back to the writings of the early church fathers. And it was debated, by those church fathers, back then also.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/10/2008 11:42:06 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1967
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quote:
We believe He had a business plan for the salvation of the whole world. That includes everyone who ever lived before Jesus was born
Oh my...DR, now we are disagreeing again. Just don't think it's going to happen...everyone being saved but it sure wouldn't bother me if they were. Well, that Gods business but He sure gives a lot more evidences that only a few will be saved as opposed to all.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/10/2008 1:42:36 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Thessa,
quote:
(Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
That means that you cant get there just by doing good works.
Universalism says nothing about getting there by "doing good works", nor has anyone here, so why do you even mention that? And we would all agree with Eph 2:8. The question is what happens when God doesn't give you the "gift of faith" to believe and receive grace? What happpens when you can't be born again according to your will?
JOH 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
What if God doesn't "grant" unto you the ability to "repent"?
2TI 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,
What if the gospel has been hidden to keep them from "seeing", "hearing" and "turning again/repenting" so they'll be forgiven?
MAR 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
"Lest they be converted and their sins forgiven them."!!! I thought that's what God wanted for everyone, so why would Jesus be telling his disciples in the above verse that God's hiding things from these people and keeping them from believing and forgiveness?
quote:
(Romans 10:13)Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(Romans 10:9)That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Totallly agree with the scriptures. We just disagree as to when that can happen...for all.
quote:
(I John 5:12)He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Very self explanatory.
I agree, but explain to me then, where does it say that this life is only available here and now? Also, John wrote this so the people would "know that they have eternal life"...you mean there are those who don't know? You believe people have to receive Jesus to 'BE' FORGIVEN. I believe they have to receive to know THEY WERE/ARE FORGIVEN. And when the church finally does 'know' they'll quit living like sinners to the point that God is going to have to judge the whole church (1Pe 4:17).
I'm going to stop just to keep this from being too long, but I hope you can see that I'm not ignorant of the scriptures you've presented. So how about defending your POV against the scriptures I've presented.
Bob,
quote:
Oh my...DR, now we are disagreeing again.
Oh Bob, don't tell me you thought that would never happen again. One day yes...when we all finally know what 'the truth' is. But til them...I still love ya.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/10/2008 4:33:30 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
Hi, I've been reading along here and I really don't think he's making a joke. If a person born and raised in the Bible Belt has a better chance of being Christian than a person born and raised in a remote village of Pakistan, and that really is the deciding factor between heaven and hell, then the analogy makes sense.
Thanks you Abraxas. Yes i did'nt mean to sound disrespectful but since God is a God of justice as well as mercy how do we find justice in the gigantic disparities that exist to hear and respond to the gospel depending on circumstances?
The starving teenage girl in Darfur who dies never knowing Christ simply spends eternity in hell and that's it?
And this is not a rarity , these circumstances are pretty common throughout the world and during the course of history.
I believe in God's wrath and in hell but God is bigger then hell and wrath and he did'nt inspire John to say "God is love" if he did'nt intend to express this love to his creation in the end.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/11/2008 2:17:48 AM
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Thessa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Universalism says nothing about getting there by "doing good works", nor has anyone here, so why do you even mention that? And we would all agree with Eph 2:8. The question is what happens when God doesn't give you the "gift of faith" to believe and receive grace? What happpens when you can't be born again according to your will?
I mentioned it because i wanted too. Simple as that.
Ive talked about this subject enough to know that someone always brings that up. ALWAYS. There is always going to be someone who says 'what about the ones that are good but dont repent?' They know. They know if they read the verses.
Everyone can be born again. IF they want to be. All ur other questions are an extension of what is not to be understood unless you read the bible. God gives EVERYONE the ability to repent.
quote:
I agree, but explain to me then, where does it say that this life is only available here and now? Also, John wrote this so the people would "know that they have eternal life"...you mean there are those who don't know? You believe people have to receive Jesus to 'BE' FORGIVEN. I believe they have to receive to know THEY WERE/ARE FORGIVEN. And when the church finally does 'know' they'll quit living like sinners to the point that God is going to have to judge the whole church (1Pe 4:17).
Why - i ask you - would we get a whole life on Earth and then also another chance when we die? What is the point of Him sending Jesus down here to die for us, for the sins we commit, to then give us another chance later if we screw up on Earth?
He wouldnt. There is ONE chance. And thats here on Earth.
All people should know they are forgiven. Thats the way to know the love of God. If a person has doubts then the enemy is getting to them. A person should just keep their faith in God and move on from all doubt.
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/11/2008 11:27:11 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: online
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Thessa,
quote:
Why - i ask you - would we get a whole life on Earth and then also another chance when we die?
That's the point, they never had a first chance during this "whole life". That was also the point of all the scriptures I quoted which you aren't addressing as I asked. Why aren't you?
quote:
DR post #59 So how about defending your POV against the scriptures I've presented.
Also, according to scripture, their "whole life" is "but a vapor" and what they do isn't in their control, but His.
JAM 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: 14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
quote:
Everyone can be born again. IF they want to be. All ur other questions are an extension of what is not to be understood unless you read the bible.
I've read the bible Thessa, that's why I had the questions I had and now have the answers I do. I've quoted scripture to the opposite of prevailing Armenianism and Calvinism views (Which are you?). So I can either stand on that scripture, which you aren't refuting, or I can stand on your opinion above. An opinion which used to be mine. In all honesty I like my scriptural image of God better than yours. My image espouses eternal love and yours eternal torture.
quote:
What is the point of Him sending Jesus down here to die for us, for the sins we commit, to then give us another chance later if we screw up on Earth?
What is the point of accessing the power of Christ to overcome sin and become perfect, only to keep on sinning for the rest of our lives here? Jesus didn't just save us from our sins, He saved us from SIN...the nature of sin. So we go on about this new nature we have and yet we live just as sinful lives as the world. That's sad IMO.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/11/2008 4:38:29 PM
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frankman
Posts: 213
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
1PE 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Concerning your questions on how people were saved before the cross, I answered these questions on the "Salvation in the Old testament" site. Post#18.
1 Peter 4:17; If God allows His own children to endure temporary trails like persecution etc., how much worse will the final eternal judgment be for the lost sinners that do the persecuting.
"Steve7150"
Who`s fault is it that our starving girl in Darfur never heard the Gospel? It is not God`s fault, it is our fault. Somebody somewhere way back failed to pass the Gospel on to their children. Remember, we are always one generation away from paganism. So if this girl is in hell, it`s not God`s fault, it`s our fault for not telling her about Jesus in time. God will hold us accountable. That is why we must do all we can to present the Gospel to as many people as possible NOW.
God is a God of mercy and justice. I therefore firmly believe nobody will be in eternal hell unless they deserve to be there. With that said we also have to remember the Bible does not teach the doctrine of purgatory, nor the second chance theory. You and I will go around only once.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/11/2008 4:44:54 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
Until a few years ago all Evangelical Christians believed in an eternal hell. Only unbelievers and cults did not believe. Only recently with the emergence of the popular emerging and Liberal doctrine and their failure to reconcile hell with the love of God has the annihilation theory become popular. However let`s be careful here. What`s popular may not always be right. It could be full of .
Actually frankman my info is that of the first 6 Christian churches , 4 believed hell was for punishment and restoration and 1 for annihilation and 1 believed it was for eternal torment.
That one that believed in ET was the Roman Catholic Church which if you analyze it's doctrines always picks the path that gives it the most control. It became the dominant church around 425AD through the dark ages and ET became the only acceptable view for "real
Christians. Like you said the popular view may not be the most biblically accurate view.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/11/2008 4:55:12 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
Steve7150"
Who`s fault is it that our starving girl in Darfur never heard the Gospel? It is not God`s fault, it is our fault. Somebody somewhere way back failed to pass the Gospel on to their children. Remember, we are always one generation away from paganism. So if this girl is in hell, it`s not God`s fault, it`s our fault for not telling her about Jesus in time. God will hold us accountable. That is why we must do all we can to present the Gospel to as many people as possible NOW.
Of course we are called to present the gospel regardless of your hell view but God does'nt care whose fault it is. God knows the Darfur girl never had a chance and it's God's will that none should perish thus IMHO she will hear the gospel. You know when folks are thrown into the lake of fire it says the books are opened, the assumption being it must be books of our works. You think God needs books to know our works? Maybe the books opened are the gospels?
Is God big enough to have his will done or is man's free will to powerful for God to overcome? Paul hated Christ and how long did it take him to be converted? Perhaps 30 seconds?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/11/2008 9:17:35 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1967
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Just for the record, New Jerusalem could accommodate in the neighborhood of 16,559,769,600,000,000 people without any problem whatsoever. That is allowing 1500 sq/ft for each person.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/12/2008 10:56:18 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Thess,
I went back and read #18. No scripture or anything supporting salvation before the cross IMO. Did you post the wrong #?
Bob,
quote:
That is allowing 1500 sq/ft for each person.
You don't mention what our ceiling height is going to be. But compared to what I live in for a 'temporal' dwelling at this time, I can hardly wait for the 'eternal' downsizing of half. 
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/12/2008 1:52:56 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1967
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
You don't mention what our ceiling height is going to be. But compared to what I live in for a 'temporal' dwelling at this time, I can hardly wait for the 'eternal' downsizing of half.
I used 20ft DR...almost sufficient to play basketball if you are so inclined.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/12/2008 1:54:48 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1967
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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If you're really good DR...God might upsize you in reward.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/12/2008 5:03:37 PM
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tony.nz
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Well, this has stirred up a hornets nest of sacred cows. Excellent subject, and in my opinion we should be able to discuss it without emotional baggage such as being accused of not believing scripture. The issue is, clarifying what scripture actually does disclose on the subject verses what has been added/amended by the traditions of man.
It is clear, I believe, that there are two seperate places, which are commonly confused or thought of (incorrectly) as one. The first is Hades, or Sheol, the dwelling place of the dead. This is a temporary dwelling place, just as is the present earth. It, too, will be destroyed, following the "great white throne" judgment. Scripture does not give us a lot of information about this Hades, or the condition or state of the dead who dwell in it. The redeemed of the Lord will never see it.
The second place referred to is the lake of fire, the eternal judgment where the "worm does not die". Following the Great White Throne Judgment (where those who are subject to it are judged based on their works), those whose names are not found written in the Lambs book of life, are cast into it.
Now the question was previously asked, could God save Satan? Now, while it is true that God can do anything, it is clear that this will not happen. Satan will be cast into the lake of fire, this is established by scripture. God can not do anything contrary to His nature, such as lie, therefore that which scripture establishes must stand.
The area that I must confess to uncertainty over, is the issue of whether all those who dwell in death in Hades, are condemned to being eternally committed to the lake of fire, following the Great White Throne Judgment. I do not believe that scripture necessarily provides us with all the answers, only that which we need to know. I cannot find where scripture answers that question. ANd, at that point, I must rest in trust in the right judgment of God, which is far above and beyond our own wisdom or understanding.
I find it amusing that someone could question a persons commitment to Christ, based on doubts as to whether all of the unredeemed will be subject to "the eternal tortures of hell", or as to whether the dead unredeemed are really really badly suffering. My commitment to Christ is based upon a personal revelation of His identity as the Son of God, co-eternal with the Father and the Spirit. Scripture is absolutely truth, however we must be diligent in trying to establish what it actually says (and open to correction). Jesus rebuked the Pharisees, because they had added the traditions of man to the Word of God, and would not or could not discern between the two.
I think much of the confusion on this subject arises from the fact that people incorrectly associate Hades with the Lake of Fire, thinking that one is just another description of the other. Therefore, they quote scripture that refers to one (such as the eternal nature of the judgment), as if it applies to both.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/12/2008 5:25:13 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
It is clear, I believe, that there are two seperate places, which are commonly confused or thought of (incorrectly) as one. The first is Hades, or Sheol, the dwelling place of the dead. This is a temporary dwelling place, just as is the present earth. It, too, will be destroyed, following the "great white throne" judgment. Scripture does not give us a lot of information about this Hades, or the condition or state of the dead who dwell in it. The redeemed of the Lord will never see it.
Tony, I can't completely agree. I agree that Hades or Sheol is the abode of the dead. But that included everyone. There were different places for the redeemed and the condemned. Jesus revealed that in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Their experiences were very different.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/12/2008 6:16:24 PM
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tony.nz
Posts: 284
Joined: 7/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
It is clear, I believe, that there are two seperate places, which are commonly confused or thought of (incorrectly) as one. The first is Hades, or Sheol, the dwelling place of the dead. This is a temporary dwelling place, just as is the present earth. It, too, will be destroyed, following the "great white throne" judgment. Scripture does not give us a lot of information about this Hades, or the condition or state of the dead who dwell in it. The redeemed of the Lord will never see it.
Tony, I can't completely agree. I agree that Hades or Sheol is the abode of the dead. But that included everyone. There were different places for the redeemed and the condemned. Jesus revealed that in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Their experiences were very different.
Agreed. I think we are talking at cross purposes a bit. When I say "the redeemed will never see it". I am speaking of the current situation of believers in Christ, who have passed from death to life through faith in the redemption of Christ. They will never see Hades, this is (part of) the death from which we are redeemed. The faithful who preceeded Christ, that is a different subject. You are correct, Lazarus and the rich man both experienced Hades, their experiences were very different, this commentary is one of the very few places we get an insight into Hades, in scripture. But that tangent opens a raft of other issues.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/12/2008 6:52:32 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/16/2005
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[quote]You are correct, Lazarus and the rich man both experienced Hades, their experiences were very different, this commentary is one of the very few places we get an insight into Hades, in scripture. But that tangent opens a raft of other issues.
The meaning of Lazarus and the Richman may not be so cut and dry either. It may be Lazarus represented the gentiles who grabbed spiritual crumbs because at that time only the jews had the Word and they sumptously feasted on it and were unwilling to share it. But they looked to Father Abraham to save them and as long as they did they would be separated from heaven by a great gulf no man could cross and they would be tormented.
Another words this parable was not about heaven and hell but rather was a prophecy about a nation rejecting Christ because they counted on their genetic relationship to Abraham.
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