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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/24/2008 11:28:49 AM
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theredhog
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MrFribbles,
The way I see it, because in that same passage, Paul said God commands all men to repent, is repent now, or else then repent. I just don't believe God gave us another option. I believe we were created to be His and His we will be. We may go through some very painful fires(not literal) of judgment, and God knows what it will take to reveal to us our need for Him. The fires are not to save us, only the blood of Jesus can do that, but they are to show us that we are not God. Brimstone comes from a word meaning sulfur, also from Theos and Theon(spelling may be off not time to look it up now) meaning God.
I believe God's judgments are corrective in nature. The one's who believe without having there feet held to the fire(pun intended) are the one's who are blessed indeed! The one's who will help bring reconciliation to the rest of the work in ages to come...the bride...church...elect.
quote:
It doesn't necessarily guarantee that all men will come to Him, though. If that were the case, why would so many of His teachings/parables indicate that there will be those who refuse to come to Him (the parable of the wedding feast, for example)?
Actually, if you look at all the scriptures that have that word draw/helkuo in them, it does not indicate an opportunity at all. It is a forceful word indicating more like to drag.
The wedding garment, to me, still just indicate that absolutely no one wil come in any other way than through Christ. Some who try will hear "depart, I never knew you." They will be in outer darkness, where they will be burdened down with regret/gnashing of teeth and misery. They will miss out on the glories of being those chosen ones. Many are called but few are chosen. This does not mean they will burn in Hell forever, it just means they will go through the fires of judgment. (will have their part with the unbelievers) Just about all, if not all of the parables, including the rich man, are written to the Jews, who, rejected Christ as the messiah and turned the gospel message into something it was never intended to be. Just how I see it. :)
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/24/2008 6:42:13 PM
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dyluck
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First of all... if you read the words of Paul, we live in HOPE of our salvation... the race isn't over yet.
Being saved isn't being safe from temperal punishment but suffer eternal distruction.
The reason for an eternal God to be separated from an eternal bond was to die for our sins and save us from an eternal wrath.
In job it talks about drinking from the cup of God's wrath. Let me tell you.. If you stood before God in your transgressions now, what would happen??? The wrath of God would fall upon you with so much force it would be unbearable.
Someone says "cease to exist" sorry... we were made eternal to begin with and we will not be smitten from existance, but suffer eternal fire "weaping and gnashing of teath" do not sound like ceasing to exist.
Look at some points below:
Galatians 6:8
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
There is a direct contrast in this verse. how can one please their sinful nature in hell or lake of fire?. Reap is something that you must bear. The contrast is reap eternal life.
The lake of fire is described as a firey furnace. See Mat 13:24-50
You can see the context of gnashing of teath... its not like being sent to your room when you are bad and be let out for good behaviour. quote:
"they will be in outer darkness, where they will be burdened down with regret/gnashing of teath" .
I think a better example would be they would be engulfed in a fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (the gnashing would not be because of pain more so of anger and hatred) where they will hate and resent God for eternity. Think about that...
When God says there will be a second death, he is describing spiritual death. The first death is a physical one put in a holding place hell for instance... the second death is a spiritual death put in the lake of fire (where hell and death go too).
Ok here we see eternal punishment via lake of fire:
Rev 20:10 "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." firstly if you read revalation, the Beast is people or a nation of some sort. False prophet could mean simply the anti-christ or could be a number of false prophets... The context of beast is plural and as well the false prophet... all human except the devil.
Ok here is the eternal connection with lake of fire... the lake of fire will be prevelant for eternity. The devil whom committed sin as humans did.... now look further:
"11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
So a couple things here... people say "hell / hades / death" are not eternal but clearly they are thrown into an eternal punishment.
I was reading a little on this site which seems to agree with the side of non-eternal punishment: http://www.christianworldchurch.co.uk/page27.htm
I was reading this in particular : "And if they are going to remain in the lake of fire, that would be a terrible result for someone who is supposed to be able to save everyone. We would have a Saviour who can not save. The Saviour of the world! We would have to re-name Him "The failure of the world". It would make God a laughing-stock. How to go from Saviour to failure in one easy lesson: the lake of fire! "
I think this guy is blasphemous for even saying that... He just judged Christ for the punishment he gave the devil, the beast and the false prophet.. What in-justice right?! The guy talks about God not having double standards, but he just gave a double standard. the devil (his once most loved angel) and his human/fallen angel cohorts deserves eternal punshment for sin and we don't? hmm that sounds like a double standard.
His love and grace does abound for those who ACCEPT IT! The devil knew God and still sinned against him.. he didn't accept it clearly. God chooses us not the other way around. Eternity is a just punishment from a perfect and eternally holy and almighty God.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/24/2008 10:10:53 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
Someone says "cease to exist" sorry... we were made eternal to begin with and we will not be smitten from existance, but suffer eternal fire "weaping and gnashing of teath" do not sound like ceasing to exist.
Look at some points below:
We were made eternal? Sorry but scripture does not say that for as Paul said only God has immortality. This is an assumption by folks who believe in ET.
Another thing i see often is this argument that a sin against an eternal God deserves eternal punishment? Why is that?
Because God is eternal that means he is bound to dish out eternal wrath? Why?
John said God is love yet God does have attributes like wrath,mercy,love,justice ,forgiveness etc but these attributes are portions of his total charactor.
So why must sin be eternally punished when wrath is only a portion of his character? Why not eternally forgiven or eternal mercy or why would'nt the justice of God simply demand proportional punishment since the gravity of different sins varies.
And lastly "weeping and gnashing of teeth" to me is a symbol of regret and does'nt suggest any length of time.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/25/2008 2:10:35 AM
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dyluck
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Steve because all characteristics of God are perfect and all characteristics define him, not as part but as a whole in their individual selves. God is love... is what the bible says.... God is Just..... God IS. If you imagine God with finite characteristics then how can you believe in his absolute vastness and power? All his characteristics are whole and perfect.
Interesting that God says we will live forever and ever. He made us in his image... You have got a narrow understanding of our purpose nor our inheritance my friend. our inheritance is eternal life, heirs to the throne. yes we had a beginning and have no end... so what does that make us? We will be immortal for eternity. so yes im an "assumer fellow that believes in eternity".
Steve God is not bound by dishing out whatever.. he dishes out what he chooses to dish out. But you really don't understand the nature of perfect justice.
Why did Christ have to die??? isn't God powerful enough to simply forgive us negate the death of his son??? Think about that... then think of perfect justice.. someone had to suffer the wrath of God... why?? you tell me steve.. you tell me why My Jesus had to suffer and become sin and have God the father seperated from his son as his son became and abomination before God because he became sin.... You tell me what your definition of perfect justice is? Christ had to suffer it... There was not holding back from God on Him.
It seems as though you understand God's love but you do not understand the rest of his attributes.
im going to say another verse which will probably be over looked again because those who believe in no hell, finite punishment neglect many many proving facts in the bible.
So when a murderer murders and he does his time in prison... is he still not a murderer when his sentence is done??? would the same be not for God except for the saving blood of Jesus Christ??? So if a murder does time in the lake of fire would he still not be a murderer when he has so called completed his sentence?
1 John 3:15 "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer , and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him." interesting.. sounds absolute to me.
1 John 2:17 "The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever" hmmm what about those who don't do the will of God? Tell me Steve can one do the will of God in the lake of burning sulfur and gnashing of teeth and weeping and then be saved by the blood of Christ who already died for the sins we committed as it says in the bible... If that were true then everyone would Go to heaven and there is no need for the bible or even believing in him for that matter... do you see where your theology has a giant hole?
James 1:12 "Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him." All the people that burn in hell will love him??? From what I know, most people in prison if not all hate and despise the one that put them there... Test??? Test in hell?? like trial by fire or what?? Sorry about being sarcastic but your view on hell is ludicrous and completely unbiblical.
Now we all agree God does not change AT ALL therefore, look at the example of this in Hebrews 3:12-19 The Old Generation Hebrews NEVER got to enter the promised land NEVER because they disobeyed God and complained... not that they will toil in the desert and trickle in to the promised land as they repented... Do you not see the point here? God doesn't have double standards about things.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/25/2008 1:12:57 PM
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dyluck
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Oh and check this out (very important passages):
2 Thes 1:9
"9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power." - This looks absolute too... no returning to God. the destruction is not cease to exist either because context of punished with everlasting is ongoing.
Rev 14:9-10
"9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb."
Jude 1:7
"7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
Excerpt from "Truth About Man " bible study guide by Paul Washer
"Many who deny the eternal nature of hell would never deny the eternal nature of heaven. However,
consistency requires that if one rejects the eternal nature of hell, he must also reject the eternal nature
of heaven. How does Matthew 25:46 demonstrate this truth?
According to Matthew 25:46, the wicked go away into E____________________ punishment and the
righteous go away into E______________________ life. It would be inconsistent to give two
contradictory meanings to the same word in the same sentence. If “eternal” punishment does not really
mean that the wicked are punished forever, then “eternal” life does not really mean that the righteous
live forever in the presence of God."
Summary:
Matt 25:46
"46Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." This verse disproves the belief that hell is not eternal punishment as it is compared word-for-word "eternal" to eternal life.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/25/2008 8:19:04 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
The way I see it, because in that same passage, Paul said God commands all men to repent, is repent now, or else then repent. I just don't believe God gave us another option.
God always gives us another option. He commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit, but they still did. Just because God commands something doesn't mean it will happen.
quote:
We may go through some very painful fires(not literal) of judgment, and God knows what it will take to reveal to us our need for Him. The fires are not to save us, only the blood of Jesus can do that, but they are to show us that we are not God. Brimstone comes from a word meaning sulfur, also from Theos and Theon(spelling may be off not time to look it up now) meaning God.
And what of those who die before responding to this correction? What in Scripture suggests that those who are already dead have any chance of repentance?
quote:
Actually, if you look at all the scriptures that have that word draw/helkuo in them, it does not indicate an opportunity at all. It is a forceful word indicating more like to drag.
I'm not going by the definition of the word. Rather, I'm going off the context. First, there's no reason to think that "all" here refers to each individual. It could easily mean "some of all types." Second, if Jesus was sure all would come to Him, why would He say what He does in 36? They'll all become sons of light eventually, in your view, so why warn them?
quote:
They will miss out on the glories of being those chosen ones. Many are called but few are chosen. This does not mean they will burn in Hell forever, it just means they will go through the fires of judgment.
Where in Scripture do you see any indication that those fires are only temporary?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/25/2008 8:42:53 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
And what of those who die before responding to this correction? What in Scripture suggests that those who are already dead have any chance of repentance?
What in scripture suggests they don't? They will be judged and even condemned and subject to wrath but God is long suffering and patient not wanting anyone to perish.
Numerous places in scripture inform us that God's will is going to be done but on his timetable.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/25/2008 8:47:13 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
Jude 1:7
"7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
This is a good example of how the word "eternal" is used. Clearly there is no fire burning Sodom now even though the bible says it will be subject to an eternal fire.
Eternal fire here meant pertaining to that age just as the bible said Jonah was in the belly of the whale forever.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/25/2008 8:51:18 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
So when a murderer murders and he does his time in prison... is he still not a murderer when his sentence is done??? would the same be not for God except for the saving blood of Jesus Christ??? So if a murder does time in the lake of fire would he still not be a murderer when he has so called completed his sentence?
1 John 3:15 "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer , and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him." interesting.. sounds absolute to me.
Yes any unrepentent murderer is still a murderer but the bible does say that every knee shall bow and everyone shall confess Christ as Lord, therefore the great majority of these confessions must happen after death.
So the question is , what will Christ do with these confessions?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/25/2008 9:17:32 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
This is a good example of how the word "eternal" is used. Clearly there is no fire burning Sodom now even though the bible says it will be subject to an eternal fire.
Eternal fire here meant pertaining to that age just as the bible said Jonah was in the belly of the whale forever.
You're misunderstanding the verse. The pronoun "they" does not, and can not, refer to Sodom and Gomorrah. It is a masculine pronoun, and Sodom and Gomorrah are neuter and feminine, respectively. A Greek pronoun must agree with its antecedent in gender. The most logical antecedent, then, is the angels referred to in verse six. It seems likely that Jude is saying, in essence, that just as Sodom and Gomorrah were punished with fire (giving no reference to time), the sinning angels are likewise punished with fire for eternity.
quote:
What in scripture suggests they don't?
That depends, do you believe those in Heaven will be there forever?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/26/2008 2:07:01 AM
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dyluck
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
And what of those who die before responding to this correction? What in Scripture suggests that those who are already dead have any chance of repentance?
What in scripture suggests they don't? They will be judged and even condemned and subject to wrath but God is long suffering and patient not wanting anyone to perish.
Numerous places in scripture inform us that God's will is going to be done but on his timetable.
Please read my whole post.
Humbly, please don't argue what is not in the bible Steve. The bible clearly states the consequence. There is no non-suggestion... there is so much clear and in your face evidence in the bible to my point that its like trying to hit a 5 mile wide bullseye that's 1 foot in front of you.
You use the whole excuse, "What in scripture suggests they don't?". How can you derive inspired word of God from thin air? I asked you the other question (What in Scripture suggests that those who are already dead have any chance of repentance?) because it is something you are basing your belief off of and it is not at all in as plain/straight forward words as "eternal punishment" is in holy scripture. The bible says what the bible says my brother, there is no way around it. Hell is hell and there is an eternal consequence to those who do not accept Christ. Do you honestly want us to go through the entire bible and count how many times the bible says this stuff on a firm non-incriptive way that no Jesus = Eternal damnation/punishment/destruction/suffering etc. in Hell?
you said "Numerous places in scripture inform us that God's will is going to be done but on his timetable."
Yes you are 100% right.. Gods will will ALWAYS be done and ALWAYS in his time.
I think I understand where you were trying to go with that comment though, see below:
2 Peter 3:8-9
"8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
Lets look at this verse.. It was addressing Christians about the coming of the end times. He wants as many to repent as possible see context: It doesn't say it is the will of God for everyone to come to repentance, but it says "not wanting". Interesting choice of words hey? Think about it. You believe God is almighty, then if it was God's will that everyone comes to repentance, there would be no need for this test on earth my brother, we would already be in heaven. He clearly wants the true of heart.
Yes the bible does say every knee will bow and every tongue confess, but that doesn't mean that they will go to heaven. the devil will confess at the same time and is involved in that verse too, does that mean he go to heaven too along with the false prophet and the beast?? you don't answer these questions I noticed.
Philippians 2:9-11
"9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."
God does not have double standards... Lucifer sinned = goes to hell for eternity. Ungodly men sin and do not repent and turn to Christ = Go to hell for eternity.
Lets leave you with this too :
1 Thessalonians 4:13
Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. (NOT EVEN IN HELL)
Jude 1:5
Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Understand dear brother God will destroy what ultimately does not Glorify him. God does not change.
By the way... age is not necessarily a finite time in context. See below.
Luke 18:29-30
29"I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life." - Age being referred to as eternal life out of the mouth of Jesus himself.
quote:
Yes any unrepentent murderer is still a murderer but the bible does say that every knee shall bow and everyone shall confess Christ as Lord, therefore the great majority of these confessions must happen after death.
So the question is , what will Christ do with these confessions?
Well they will be judged according to their deeds already done. I want you to do a study on the the word "race" in the bible. Paul and Timothy talk about it. It will give you a better idea that went this "age" is over then that is it, there is no turning back.
< Message edited by dyluck -- 10/26/2008 2:14:14 AM >
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/26/2008 11:47:44 AM
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bravjim
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I am not going to take the time to read all of these posts. I would like to say that Jesus Himself said that it would be better for those in Sodom and Gomorrah then it would be for those of that generation who did not believe. I think that this indicates that there will be levels to the suffering, but that suffering would be eternal. I understand what you are saying about the other beliefs, and can see how some might interpret God's word that way. As you stated, the verse from 1 Cor. 15 states that all will be made alive. I always believed that this indicated that all would have eternal life, but the lost's "life" would be in condemnation and seperation from God, burning eternally. At one point, when I was lost, I thought that the burning would be one of jealousy for those who were saved and living in glory with God. They would burn with jealousy, like they could see what we had from the lake of fire. Now, I don't really give it too much thought anymore. My focus is on living for God and living with God. Amazing what salvation can do to change the way that we think.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/26/2008 11:34:27 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
You're misunderstanding the verse. The pronoun "they" does not, and can not, refer to Sodom and Gomorrah
OK but if the "they" are angels, Sodom is referenced as being an example for those subject to eternal fire. The main characteristic of this example is the eternality aspect of the fire yet it does not burn today.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/26/2008 11:38:25 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
I think that this indicates that there will be levels to the suffering, but that suffering would be eternal
Eternal is eternal is eternal and does not lend itself to different levels. Eternal is infinite which is forever therefore there are no degrees of suffering just eternity.
Unless perhaps you mean some will be tortured at 5,000 degrees and some at 3,000?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/26/2008 11:48:29 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
You use the whole excuse, "What in scripture suggests they don't?". How can you derive inspired word of God from thin air? I asked you the other question (What in Scripture suggests that those who are already dead have any chance of repentance
The reason i ask "what in scripture suggests they don't" is because you are making this affirmative statement that scripture states there is no opportunity for salvation for anyone after death.
I asked for evidence to support your belief. I know unbelievers are judged and condemned and subject to wrath and thrown into the lake of fire. You can infer that these things mean no salvation after death but i see these things having a redemptive purpose based on Jesus's character and God's stated will which he affirmatively states will be done.
So the "excuse" i rest on is God's declared will for man.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/27/2008 10:01:51 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
OK but if the "they" are angels, Sodom is referenced as being an example for those subject to eternal fire.
No, it isn't. You're not reading it correctly - which I understand, since any translation is bound to be confusing. The Greek is confusing enough as it is!
The angels are serving as the example. They are burned, like Sodom and Gomorrah were, except more so - the cities burned and were no more, but the angels will burn forever. There is nothing grammatically linking Sodom and Gomorrah and the concept of "eternal".
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/27/2008 12:30:26 PM
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dyluck
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Steve tell me where in the bible it says that its the "Will" of God that all man repent.
I only read that God desires all men to repent. These are two drasticly different things.
Remember... I said if it was God's will that all men repent, then all men will repent, it wouldn't take hell for some sort of forced submission for that to happen I can guarantee that.
You forget, God doesn't want us to come to him out of forced submission, but for us to love him because we want love him. The only intervention God had on this is that he removes our heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh that is stimulated by God and his love. Otherwise we are left to our depravity. People burning for some set period of time will just continue to Hate the God that judged them into that place anyway. I don't know why you don't understand that people cannot be reconciled onto God by their own doing. (key point - fufilling a Judgement Sentance). Did you not read the bible when it says that ONLY the blood of Christ can save us. Now read what happens (which is indefinate) -
The inheritance of eternal life is given to children of God. A somone who continues to live sinfully is unGodly will not or never be a son of God if they die in that state. Repentance in the bible says repent now. I mean do you want me to find all the versus that says repent before Jesus returns... Why does God say that???.
If you read This: Hebrews 10:26 -31
"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[e] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. "
If there was repentance for the fallen, then the devil would have repented... Clearly his hatred toward God is unchanging even though he knows his destiny... Do you not think the same will be for those who will be sent to the Lake of Fire??
You mention this
"Unless perhaps you mean some will be tortured at 5,000 degrees and some at 3,000? "
No one knows at what "degree" of punisment (torment as per bible) one will receive based on what they did in this life. You know everything boils down to what was done in this life. Anyway.. my point is this... We know by reading the bible that we can store up riches in heaven and that there will be greater rewards... Therefore, will one's heaven be better then others? Why would it be any different for the lake of fire? I would deduct such by passages below:
Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Here is a church leader just barely making it to heaven... So consumed by increasing the buiding of brick and mortar churches and not the church/bride in which does not get burned by fire.... wonder how much treasure he built up:
1 Corinthians 3:15
"If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
Matt 11:22
22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
Hebrews 10:29
29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Romans 2:11-12
11For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
Daniel 12:3
3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
Matthew 25:23
23"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
Rev 14:11-13
11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."
"Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/28/2008 11:28:31 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
Steve tell me where in the bible it says that its the "Will" of God that all man repent.
I only read that God desires all men to repent. These are two drasticly different things.
Remember... I said if it was God's will that all men repent, then all men will repent, it wouldn't take hell for some sort of forced submission for that to happen I can guarantee that.
According to the KJV and Rotherhams "Who will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim 2.4
IMO Rotherham's is the best bible translation there is but it is true other translations say "Who desires all men to be saved."
For you or me a desire may be a weak wish on our part but i believe when the omnipotent God of the universe desires something there is no doubt he will manifest his desire into results which means his desire is his will. There is no difference in his desire and will thus God will get what he wants , it's only a question of when.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/29/2008 8:11:28 AM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
No, it isn't. You're not reading it correctly - which I understand, since any translation is bound to be confusing. The Greek is confusing enough as it is!
The angels are serving as the example. They are burned, like Sodom and Gomorrah were, except more so - the cities burned and were no more, but the angels will burn forever. There is nothing grammatically linking Sodom and Gomorrah and the concept of "eternal".
MrFribbles, Not only does every bible i've seen say Sodom and Gomorrah "are set forth for an example" but so does every commentary. The commentators must also know the same gramatical considerations you mention yet they see Sodom as the example.
Not only that but 2 Peter 2.6 makes a similar point,
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly."
Many scholars believe Jude took some of his info from 2nd Peter.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/29/2008 8:19:26 AM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
You forget, God doesn't want us to come to him out of forced submission, but for us to love him because we want love him. The only intervention God had on this is that he removes our heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh that is stimulated by God and his love. Otherwise we are left to our depravity. People burning for some set period of time will just continue to Hate the God that judged them into that place anyway. I don't know why you don't understand that people cannot be reconciled onto God by their own doing. (key point - fufilling a Judgement Sentance). Did you not read the bible when it says that ONLY the blood of Christ can save us. Now read what happens (which is indefinate) -
The inheritance of eternal life is given to children of God. A somone who continues to live sinfully is unGodly will not or never be a son of God if they die in that state. Repentance in the bible says repent now. I mean do you want me to find all the versus that says repent before Jesus returns... Why does God say that???.
If you read This: Hebrews 10:26 -31
"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[e] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God
I've repeatly acknowledged unbelievers will be judged in the fire but i believe God is not just about torture and torment forever He is also about ultimate redemption THROUGH the blood of Christ even if it's in the lake of fire.
Consider that in Revelation unbelievers are tormented IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB.
Jesus is there, he is in charge of the LOF , unbelievers are in his presence and Jesus has said that believers will rule and reign with HIM.
WHO do you think believers are gonna rule and reign over?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/29/2008 1:18:59 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
Steve tell me where in the bible it says that its the "Will" of God that all man repent.
I only read that God desires all men to repent. These are two drasticly different things.
Remember... I said if it was God's will that all men repent, then all men will repent, it wouldn't take hell for some sort of forced submission for that to happen I can guarantee that.
According to the KJV and Rotherhams "Who will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim 2.4
IMO Rotherham's is the best bible translation there is but it is true other translations say "Who desires all men to be saved."
For you or me a desire may be a weak wish on our part but i believe when the omnipotent God of the universe desires something there is no doubt he will manifest his desire into results which means his desire is his will. There is no difference in his desire and will thus God will get what he wants , it's only a question of when.
Check out all instances of the occurance of the greek word: thelei
http://concordance.biblos.com/thelei.htm
quote:
I've repeatly acknowledged unbelievers will be judged in the fire but i believe God is not just about torture and torment forever He is also about ultimate redemption THROUGH the blood of Christ even if it's in the lake of fire.
Consider that in Revelation unbelievers are tormented IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB.
Jesus is there, he is in charge of the LOF , unbelievers are in his presence and Jesus has said that believers will rule and reign with HIM.
WHO do you think believers are gonna rule and reign over?
This is your belief Steve, it isn't backed up by solid scripture. There is far more scripture leading to eternal damnation then any other senario and we both know that.
Lastly, it doesn't tell us in the bible who we will rule and reign over, but this universe is vastly big... My imagination flows vividly on this point but cannot be backed up by any scripture. <-- starts thinking of something off of Stargate Atlantis :-P
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/29/2008 2:12:56 PM
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