Will a pastor solve the problems? (Full Version)

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SurrenderALL -> Will a pastor solve the problems? (9/3/2008 5:27:57 PM)

This is a small church, founded four years ago with the support of partners with several families. The church had a fulltime pastor at the beginning, but the pastor suddenly left two and half years ago. Some people left right after the leaving of the pastor. Then there is no pastor, no fulltime minister. The church runs with all members' input basically as a normal church. However, people come, people go, the church didn't grow in number. Recently, after a pastor candidate visiting a congregation voting rejected him by slightly less than 75% support. But many church members deadly liked this pastor because he was very talented in preaching. Following the result, all problems hidden have come out. People are taking steps to leave; some are trying very hard to keep people; some are trying hard to insist on their vision; some are working on improve ministries. With disagreements, some even spoken out very rudely to attack others.
Under this situation, I want to hear encouragements, advices.



sisrev -> RE: Will a pastor solve the problems? (9/4/2008 8:23:55 AM)

A 75% vote would be considered a landslide in the political arena. What % is required to elect a pastor? ( I do know many churches require a 2/3 majority for a first-time election) With it being this close, was a re-vote done? Or is that allowed under your church guidelines?

2 1/2 years is a long time to go without a pastor. I can understand people getting frustrated and leaving after this long with no real leadership. Then you come this close to getting someone. They may feel like there is no point in hanging on when nothing seems to be happening to move the church forward.

Meanwhile, do you have someone different filling the pulpit each week? Are these outside ministers, or from within the local body?



SurrenderALL -> RE: Will a pastor solve the problems? (9/4/2008 2:23:04 PM)

It is closed. First, the church didn't plan a second round voting; second, the candidate said he asked for a sign of 100%. The church's requirement is 75%; the result is 14/19=73.68%.
Before his visiting, everyone in the pastor search committee loved the candidate after listening his preach and talking with him and references on phone. During his visit, a theological question was brought up in a casual conversation. And this hit one senior PSC member's attention. the question is about baptism: is immersion the only way of baptism according to the Bible? The candidate said he will respect what a baptist church requires, but other forms of baptism are also acceptable for him. Our PSC senior member thought he didn't have integrity in interpreting Bible, and strongly spoken out his voice to against. But apparently, most of the church members were not convinced and still strongly support. But with the voting result, they have to accept, even sadly.
My husband and I have been serving in the church for three years. It has never been the church I was looking for at the beginning when I moved here. I though about leaving for several times in the past years, but still here. When I look back I believe it is God who sent me here and trained me in his way, which is different from what I expected. I am still encouraged by some brothers and sisters who are trying hard for a revival. But considering the disagreements, I am thinking if it is time to move on to another church to build ourselves before we can serve better.



rcjames -> RE: Will a pastor solve the problems? (9/4/2008 3:23:24 PM)

Sounds like that Pastor was not the right one for you; in that he would only accept a 100% vote (I doubt that Christ Himself would get that), and that he seemingly was wishy washy on what he thought was Biblical Baptism.

Try again.

Also what is a "Senior PSC member"?

Thanks
RC



SurrenderALL -> RE: Will a pastor solve the problems? (9/4/2008 5:39:28 PM)

James, I agree with you that 100% is not possible for even Jesus.
PSC is pastor search committee. I say senior because he is an elder. In fact he is a respectable retired pastor after almost 40 years serving.



SurrenderALL -> RE: Will a pastor solve the problems? (9/4/2008 9:25:27 PM)

I have been thinking it over to conclude that lacking a sound leadership is the #1 problem of the church. I know examples that a church grew fast without a pastor. And this church did have a pastor before and was pushed to leave.

My observation of the church is that almost every one serves in different area, like worship leading, teaching SS, fellowship, foods, finance ect. Those who serve consistently have been regarded to be leaders by some people. But as a matter of fact, they may only take themselves servant. They are not in the spot of LEADing the congragation, of MAKING decisions. There is only one person who dose has a title of coordinator. And only recently we got to know this. There is a bi-monthly business meeting, which is open to all members, but not request everyone to attend. So usually only a few people consistently attend the meeting, where reports are given and decisions are made.
I probably will point it out to everyone in the church.



kleimoladmk -> RE: Will a pastor solve the problems? (9/4/2008 10:36:53 PM)

I see more to this situation than first meets the eye.

This is a small congregation, founded four years ago (presumably 2004) with the support of "partners" with several families. I have several questions to clarify the situation:

1...Why was the congregation brought to life? Conflict? The need for another congregation of the same denomination in the community? Other?

2....Can you explain the difference between "parners" and "several families"? How closely are the "several families" related to each other? Same family tree? Most from the same family tree? Some from the same family tree? None from the same family tree?

3....The previos pastor "suddenly left" after 2 1/2 years. Does anyone know the reason for his "sudden" departure? Was he embroiled in conflict? What role did the PSC senior member play in the "sudden" departure of the first pastor? In reality, there isn't such a thing as a 'sudden" departure. There is always "a devil in the details". The challenge you have is to determine why the founding pastor left, and who influenced his leaving.

4....I suspect one of two reasons for his leaving -- either immorality of some sort, or he was forced to leave by a quiet, but powerful force in the congregation. My quess is there is a member of the congregation who controls what does and does not come to the table for action. If he doesn't like the idea, it's DOA. The reason for that suspicion is that since the candidate gave an explanation of the proper method of baptism the Sr. member did not agree with, he became the congregation's topic of conversation for several weeks.

5....Only by taking a close look at the situation at hand can any conclusion be made, and determine what action(s) can be taken to strengthen the body.

The whole congregation is in a very tight spot. I pray the Holy Spirit gives you strong spiritual leaders and guides the members of the congregation to an understanding of what God intends you (the congregation) to be and become.

God give you strength in your struggle.



SurrenderALL -> RE: Will a pastor solve the problems? (9/5/2008 12:11:06 AM)

quote:



1...Why was the congregation brought to life? Conflict? The need for another congregation of the same denomination in the community? Other?

I am not clear why the church started since it was there when I moved to this place. We didn't have a lot of choice if we choose the specific language, which is not English. As I know some members moved to this church from a better same language church because they saw more chances to serve in a smaller church.

quote:


2....Can you explain the difference between "parners" and "several families"? How closely are the "several families" related to each other? Same family tree? Most from the same family tree? Some from the same family tree? None from the same family tree?

Partners are other churches or organizations that give financial support and provide a temporary place for meeting before the church becomes independent. Families are those who attend the church as members. The families are from different places speaking same language though different accents. There is no family tree, or close families, or relatives.

quote:


3....The previos pastor "suddenly left" after 2 1/2 years. Does anyone know the reason for his "sudden" departure? Was he embroiled in conflict? What role did the PSC senior member play in the "sudden" departure of the first pastor? In reality, there isn't such a thing as a 'sudden" departure. There is always "a devil in the details". The challenge you have is to determine why the founding pastor left, and who influenced his leaving.

Maybe the leaving is not a sudden in fact. To me it is a sudden since it happened not to long after we came. On one Sunday morning we didn't see the pastor as usual. Then the pastor from mother church (the church who provides us a place) announced the resign of the pastor.

quote:


4....I suspect one of two reasons for his leaving -- either immorality of some sort, or he was forced to leave by a quiet, but powerful force in the congregation. My quess is there is a member of the congregation who controls what does and does not come to the table for action. If he doesn't like the idea, it's DOA. The reason for that suspicion is that since the candidate gave an explanation of the proper method of baptism the Sr. member did not agree with, he became the congregation's topic of conversation for several weeks.

I heard later that some members didn't like the previous pastor, especially they complaint that the pastor's wife refused to serve in the church. I did rarely see her since I came till they left.
I would say yes that some members have been very unhappy with the senior member since the voting. I really don't know if there is a group of congregation that controls all.

quote:


5....Only by taking a close look at the situation at hand can any conclusion be made, and determine what action(s) can be taken to strengthen the body.

People are saying dried up and need to be filled. Or they say they need to find love for Christ as they had before. Some think that the coming of a new pastor will settle everything. I hesitate to agree, but not very clear where the fatal cause is.

quote:


The whole congregation is in a very tight spot. I pray the Holy Spirit gives you strong spiritual leaders and guides the members of the congregation to an understanding of what God intends you (the congregation) to be and become.

God give you strength in your struggle.


Thank you! Someone said that it is time to pull out the weeds. I hope those who can stay will find strength in the Lord.



buckifn -> RE: Will a pastor solve the problems? (9/6/2008 6:01:27 PM)

No, Pastor's cannot fix the heart of other people. If there is contention in the church it is a heart issue.

Pastor's can only lead others as they follow after Christ for themselves first.

Sometimes the best things happen after certain people leave the church.



SurrenderALL -> RE: Will a pastor solve the problems? (9/8/2008 3:46:39 PM)

There was an open discussion meeting on Saturday, which lasted four hours. Twelve members attended the meeting. Many still felt sorry for the voting results. But all have agreed to move forward. The purpose of the meeting is to give everyone a chance to speak out what they saw and feel face to face.

One of the church founders said two things: he felt tired; he felt discouraged by seeing people come and go. He is also the only one with a title among the entire church after the previous pastor left. His title is ministry coordinator, responsible to report and communicate with partners.

‘burnt out’ looked the common feeling to those who have been serving actively in the church. Many other problems were also brought up, for example, too conservative by not allowing non-member to serve; students has no peer support; even invitation after sermon was though to block non-believers to seek God.

I myself do not agree with most of them. I pointed out that no real leadership was a problem. I also pointed out that our focus now should be building up ourselves instead of out reach.

Many were trying to find the reason why people left, and wanted to comfort people by adjusting our time, ministries ect. I asked a question: what the church is for? Our ministry coordinator answered me: to make disciples.

My husband and I did have the same observation in the discussion: our ‘leaders’ are looking for strategies to please people. This is also where we worry about and wander if we should take steps to leave too. But we have been serving in the church for a long time too. Our leaving would discourage the ‘leaders’. If we insist there will be new disagreement besides the existing disagreement.

Here I want to ask: Why a church? What is a Christian Church (we are Baptist church) for?Thanks!



Marksman -> RE: Will a pastor solve the problems? (9/21/2008 3:08:11 AM)

One of the problems that we have in the church today is that we think that we have to produce the perfect church. The NT church was full of problems but they still changed the known world in 30 years. As we say in our fellowship, perfection is not a condition for acceptance.

In the NT there was no such thing as "a pastor". They were led by a plurality of unpaid local Elders, all of whom were senior men chronologically.

Research shows that being and having a pastor for too many churches is a disaster, especially when he is required to be an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher and CEO.

Because the NT teaches the priesthood of all believers and does not recognise a clergy/laity divide, you will in all probability have an eldership already amongst your men.

Let them assume the oversight of the fellowship and get them to pray, pray and pray for the leading of the Holy Spirit. That way you will know the mind of God not the mind of man.

Just one other point. In the NT church there is not one single account of any church asking a person to come from another town or country to lead the church.



cwb -> RE: Will a pastor solve the problems? (9/23/2008 7:32:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SurrenderALL

This is a small church, founded four years ago with the support of partners with several families. The church had a fulltime pastor at the beginning, but the pastor suddenly left two and half years ago. Some people left right after the leaving of the pastor. Then there is no pastor, no fulltime minister. The church runs with all members' input basically as a normal church. However, people come, people go, the church didn't grow in number. Recently, after a pastor candidate visiting a congregation voting rejected him by slightly less than 75% support. But many church members deadly liked this pastor because he was very talented in preaching. Following the result, all problems hidden have come out. People are taking steps to leave; some are trying very hard to keep people; some are trying hard to insist on their vision; some are working on improve ministries. With disagreements, some even spoken out very rudely to attack others.
Under this situation, I want to hear encouragements, advices.


Wow surrender...

Your post is a little difficult to follow there. Is English a second language for you?



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