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Can Evolution Theory Allow for a Literal Genesis?
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| Yes. If "days"= millions of years. |
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| No. Adam/Eve did not evolve. Original sin is literal. |
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| Yes. Other explanation. Ultimately factual/historical. |
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| No.If Genesis is a fairy tale for uneducated, what isn't? |
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Total Votes : 23
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(last vote on : 10/25/2008 1:04:32 AM)
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RE: Can Evolution Theory Allow for a Literal Genesis? - 9/30/2008 10:05:14 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 326
Joined: 1/28/2006
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There has been a heretical teaching that has entered the church and one that any Christians believe. This teaching is that Genesis chapters 1 and 2 are just parables and not to be taken literally. They say that it cannot be taken literally because it does not adhere to current scientific theory. What an affront to our God! I want to make it clear that the Bible nowhere indicates that Genesis 1 and 2 are parables. Whenever spoken of in the Bible, it is accepted in the literal sense.
When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
(Psa 8:3-4)
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
(Psa 19:1-6)
By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as a heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spoke, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
(Psa 33:6-9)
The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun. Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter.
(Psa 74:16-17)
He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.
(Psa 104:19)
O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches. So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.
(Psa 104:24-25)
To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth forever. To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth forever. To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth forever: The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth forever: The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth forever.
(Psa 136:5-9)
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh
(Mat 19:4-5)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(Joh 1:1-3)
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
(Joh 8:44)
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(Rom 1:19-21)
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
(1Co 15:45-49)
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
(2Co 4:6)
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
(Eph 5:31)
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
(Heb 11:3)
For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
(1Ti 2:13-14)
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.
(2Pe 3:5-6)
So this idea that Genesis 1 and 2 was just a parable or to be concidered a parable, is in not a Biblical one. In fact what Peter predicted by the Holy Ghost is that in the last days men would come who are willingly ignorant of this fact. Peter was right on the money wasn't he. Evolutionist have no evidence, all they have are cleaver arguments (Jude 1:16) and by these cleaver arguments, they have deceived the whole world. But you can be sure that this idea of the six day creation being a parable is nowhere taught in scripture and so is against God's word. It is an heretical teaching.
Also that a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2 is essential to our faith. Denying the fall of Adam and Eve, our first parents, is to undermine why Jesus came. In fact from the fall. The Bible is a record of God's intervention, to bring about our Savior. If Genesis 1 and 2 is not literal, then neither is the rest of scripture. No fall, no need for a Savior and our faith in Him is for nothing. Now who would want to take that great truth from our hearts? I think that it speaks about him in Genesis chapter 2.
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But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Can Evolution Theory Allow for a Literal Genesis? - 10/1/2008 12:38:26 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3150
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
So this idea that Genesis 1 and 2 was just a parable or to be concidered a parable, is in not a Biblical one. While I completely agree with the overall point you are making, Godhead, it seems your terminology is somewhat imprecise. A parable is a short story usually based on some practical vignette of daily living and designed to teach one or more spiritual lessons by indirect means through comparison or analogy. Genesis 1-3 thus fails several literary criteria to be considered a parable by any reasonable student of the Bible. Perhaps what you meant to say is that some scholars consider Genesis 1-11 to be in the literary genre of symbolic allegory or mythology. However, the grammatical construction of the text and its divisions into sections similar to chapters 12-50 clearly indicate that all of Genesis was written as factually accurate historical narrative to be read in its plain sense meaning.
quote:
Also that a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2 is essential to our faith. Denying the fall of Adam and Eve, our first parents, is to undermine why Jesus came. In fact from the fall. Once again, Godhead, this may be somewhat imprecise terminology. Our faith is not based on or due to a particular hermeneutic of Scripture. We must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved! Having stated that truth, I fully agree that sound Christian doctrine demands a correct understanding of sin and its origin. It seems nearly impossible for me personally to understand and live out my salvation without accepting as factual history the account of Adam and Eve in Genesis 1-3. How others may do it is between them and God!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Can Evolution Theory Allow for a Literal Genesis? - 10/1/2008 5:22:05 PM
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charlotte123
Posts: 45
Joined: 2/27/2008
Status: offline
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There is no reason to believe that the Genesis account is anything but a literal account of creation. Evolution theory does not even come close to agreement with it.
What ever happened to believing what God said? I'm tired of S&O forum.
Doesn't matter how much you debate this subject. The truth is, if you believe God, the world is going to think you're foolish.
Is is plainly stated in God's word. We spend way too many hours debating in this forum trying to make the truth seem less foolish to those who don't believe it. I'm done. I'm going to spend my time sharing the love of Jesus Christ. I can't believe I got caught up in this malarky.
God made it how he wanted to when he wanted to in the way he wanted to. Sound foolish to everyone? Good. I must be doing something right.
Adios Amigos!
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RE: Can Evolution Theory Allow for a Literal Genesis? - 10/1/2008 6:40:21 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 326
Joined: 1/28/2006
Status: offline
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Well Paul used a literal Translation of Genesis Chapter 2 to explain why how sin came into the world and why Christ Came.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Rom 5:12-19)
Both are inexplicitly tied together, and to deny the one is to deny the other. No writer of the scriptures, who were under the influence of the Holy Spirit, never considered Genesis Chapters 1 and 2 to be a parable but considered it as historical fact. Our faith is based upon what the bible says about Christ and also God and our origins. Nowhere are the heretical teachings of atheist who seek to understand the world and our origins without the reality of God, should ever be allowed into the church. Darwin did not believe in the Bible and so has laid the foundation for the strongest movement that denies the existence of God. Evolution is a lie and the Devil is the father of lies. Sophistry = A deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone. A clever but misleading argument. What would a Christian want with either.
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Can Evolution Theory Allow for a Literal Genesis? - 10/2/2008 8:43:34 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3150
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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quote:
Both are inexplicitly tied together, and to deny the one is to deny the other. No writer of the scriptures, who were under the influence of the Holy Spirit, never considered Genesis Chapters 1 and 2 to be a parable but considered it as historical fact. I don't think you're getting my point, Godhead. No one today considers Genesis to be "parable" (it has no features of this genre) but some may consider it allegory or mythology (BTW, the Fall of mankind is recorded in chapter 3). And I totally agree with you that the historical fact of physical death entering the world with the first sin of Adam provides the single most damning evidence against zillions of years of evolution through "survival of the fittest".
quote:
Our faith is based upon what the bible says about Christ and also God and our origins. That's not how I read Ephesians 2:8 and Romans 10:9! Our faith is based upon the grace of God who freely gives salvation to all who believe and confess in the Risen Lord Jesus Christ. Sound Christian doctrine is based on the correct interpretation of all Scripture, especially those regarding soteriology such as Genesis 1-3.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Can Evolution Theory Allow for a Literal Genesis? - 10/6/2008 9:15:23 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 326
Joined: 1/28/2006
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Ok so its chapter 3 
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
(Gen 11:7-9)
From wolves, they have been able to breed hundreds if not thousands of different breeds of Dog. Not a different species but different breeds of the same species. The most modern dog can still breed with a wolf and produce offspring. This has happened over thousands of years but is evidence, that from one animal you can create several different breeds. This is no different from the first two humans. Just like man has intervene with one species of animal and created several breeds, so God intervened and through that one action, there has come several different races of man over time. So the account of Adam and Eve is absolutely possible from all the evidence at hand. From one race of man, you can easily get several races. Its only natural, that they who speak the same language would segregate. It happens in a multicultural society, where you see immigrants associating with each other, simply because they share the same language. All it would take to create several different breeds of man, would be for God to choose carefully who would receive what language. All the darked skinned ones, a language, all the fair skinned ones there own language. Its perfectly plausible and from what man has done with dogs, absolutely possible. Adam and Eve fits perfectly with observable facts, that do allow for a literal interpretation of Genesis.
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But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Can Evolution Theory Allow for a Literal Genesis? - 10/10/2008 9:51:11 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 326
Joined: 1/28/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I don't think you're getting my point, Godhead.
What I am saying is that the theory of evolution has no place in the Christian Church or Christian Heart. You see Satan is very cunning. If He cannot get somebody to deny the existence of God, he will get them to start doubting His word. Sin came into the world by Adam and Eve. Jesus came into the world to redeem all of mankind. The theory of evolution severs that link right in half. First, it gets the Christian to disbelieve the account of creation, then the account of Adam and Eve and the fall. Knowing Satan as well as I do, he cannot stop there. Satan has a plan, and to doubt the first three Chapters of Genesis and the flood is only the first step. If the Devil succeeds in doing that, he will endeavor to get a Christian to doubt the complete authority of God's word. "Well you know, its not all divinely inspired by God is it, science has disproved many things about the Bible, so we cannot trust that everything it says is true." The Devil sets out to cause Christians, as he did Adam and Eve, to doubt Gods word. That is his aim. The theory of evolution and Christian liberalism is clear evidence of his success. Does the reader doubt the truth of God's word, does he doubt its authority? If yes then the Devil has succeeded. I know many church goers do. They believe that the Bible is not God's word but a mere collections of ancient books, written by men who had no real understanding of science or human nature. They believe that much of what the Bible teaches is not relevant today. They accept homosexuality, sex out of marriage, adultery, witchcraft and doubt that God would really punish us for that kind of thing. The devil entices the world through the flesh. He says that as long as you believe his lies and deny the truth of God's word, you can have the freedom to do whatever you want. Be gay, be a fornicator, drink and take drugs. Live in the imaginations of your own heart. That's the real power that his lies have. Believing in evolution paves the way for sin. Satan's rewards are only temporary. For Adam and Eve it was to taste some luscious fruit. For us it can be a multitude of sins offensive to God. But all that do so will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Satan wants to destroy your relationship with God. He does not want you to think that our true joy and contentment lies in Jesus. He wants you to think that your only happiness lies in gratification of the flesh. And just as Eve went straight to her husband after sinning and gave him to eat of the fruit, so also will they who doubt God's word, endeavor with great enthusiasm, to encourage others to do the same. Christians who believe in evolution, agree with the world, stand with the world and love the world. Yet they would have us think that they are just as good and devout as us, even better. But I can only laugh at that absurdity. Jion satans army (Revelation 19:19-20) Or God's army (Revelation 19:14-16)
_____________________________
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Can Evolution Theory Allow for a Literal Genesis? - 10/10/2008 9:52:24 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 326
Joined: 1/28/2006
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Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies. (Psalm 40:4)
Also what we need to remember is that Jesus was no ordinary man, He was the creator. Is anything to hard for the Lord?
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Col 1:16-17)
So it would be ever so foolish to think that He had no true understanding of our origins. Jesus believed in Adam and Eve because He was the one who created them. To believe in evolution is to deny the work of our Lord. There are a manifold dangers in denying the first three chanters of Genesis, as there is in denying anything that the Bible says. As if God would give us a book that could not be trusted. Only the Devil would want us to think that.
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But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Can Evolution Theory Allow for a Literal Genesis? - 10/18/2008 8:50:02 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 69
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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If we're talking literal, then note that God told the man that in the day that he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would surely die. Not start to die, not in the week, not in the century, not in the millenium. In the day he ate of it, he would surely die.
Adam didn't die that day. In fact, he lived nine-hundred and thirty years.
That being the case, how does physical death prior to the fall discount the possibility of a literal, scientific creation?
Paul said that he was alive once without the law, but that when the commandment came, sin revived and he died. Paul, too, lived beyond that moment of death.
In both cases, the experience of death was clearly a spiritual one.
God never promised man or anyone else that they would live eternally in the flesh in the Old Testament that I'm aware of (if I'm mistaken on this, please show me otherwise with contextual scripture). Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
On another note, the dinosaur thing I read in an early post ... most of the evidence suggests the T-Rex was a scavenger, not a herbavore. That serrated teeth argument doesn't make reasonable sense at all. All of its teeth were made to pierce and tear, not grind up foliage. Evidence has also shown that they continued to grow new teeth throughout their lives. That's why some were shorter than others, they say; because they were newer and not yet fully grown in.
Concerning the allegorical concept of the Genesis ... Josephus makes no bones about the fact that from the Jewish perspective, it has an allegorical counterpart. It can be viewed as both literal and allegorical, and church fathers from the first few centuries allegorized it plenty. With all their ideas concerning sex being a factor in the fall, I would be surprised if a combination of Genesis and the Song of Solomon weren't combined to give us the "Adam's apple" phrase.
As for my personal opinion on the topic of this thread, I think anything is possible. It is not scientific speculation that concluded a big bang. It's a mathematical certainty. The universe is expanding outward. If you reverse it, it all goes back to a single point. The only thing Einstein never answered was the singularity problem. What went bang?
The evolution of string theory has, within the last few years, demonstrated mathematically that multiple dimensions exists, which I would hope we all agree is correct since we recognize our physical world and the spiritual. The argument is that two dimensional nodes collided.
In view of Genesis, all it says in the beginning is that God created the heavens and the earth. It doesn't say how. It then goes on to show how God developed the earth, which I find matches the scientific theory on history of the earth (barring the evolution of man, which is not scientifically validated!).
The only real discrepancy between creation and evolution (of the earth, not man) is "the evening and the morning were the first day."
But then I have to wonder if God portrayed the creation to Moses in an entirely accurate manner. Moses was, after all, a primitive person. Although he was well educated for his time period, he was still a primitive at the tail end of the bronze age of that region. Many parents bend the truth on many things when speaking to their children to explain certain things. Sometimes children just won't understand, so we find a way to explain it in simpler terms so they will.
It is not out of the question to consider that the story of creation is true, but a simplified version. Rather than try to explain things to Moses that he wouldn't understand, perhaps God "dumbed it down," so to speak. After all, we don't really need to know that there was a big bang, or what went bang, or when it went bang. All that was truly relevant was who caused the bang. We don't really need to know that the earth, in its infancy, was a molten world of storms and earthquakes, with the constant shifting of tectonic plates. To tell us that the earth was without form and void was sufficient.
So when it comes to the individual days, the same possibility exists. Did God need to tell Moses that it took four billion years for plants to start growing on this desolate planet? Every written and spoken language in existence at that time had extreme difficulty even counting that high. The Egyptian system of counting and numbering, which is what Moses would have learned and used, was considered by the Greeks much later to be inelegant and sloppy, and the Sumerian form of mathematics, which is demonstrated historically to be the most advanced in the ancient world (circa 3000 BCE), didn't devolp the system of places until much later. It wasn't until Archimedes in the early third century BCE that mathematics had even evolved to a point where counting to such extremes was even reasonably plausible. You have to remember that the number zero we take for granted didn't exist until the seventh century CE, and it is the number zero that makes large numbers possible to be expressed without it taking ten sheets of paper.
Rather than confuse Moses, it is absolutely possible that God just simplified the "days" to days, lest Moses be confused by concepts far beyond his understanding.
So I think the creation as a literal, scientific happenstance is absolutely possible. I do not, however (as I said earlier), agree with the evolution of man as it is portrayed, or the evolution of the various species. At best, I would agree with Darwin concerning environmental evolution. All species, including man, change with their environment. If we are all agreed that our species started with one man and one woman, then this should be an evident fact since there are dark-skinned people, Orientals ... blondes, brunettes, red-heads ... there are all sorts of humans on this planet. Yet as a general rule, children tend to take on the traits of their parents. Just like all the children of Israel descended from Jacob, and Jews tend to have a similar appearance which has been noted and even ridiculed over the years.
If we all came from the same source, then we should all look somewhat similar. Yet, we don't, because various climates and human habitats during primitive times caused us to evolve according to our circumstances.
These are my thoughts. Good thread.
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Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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