RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God?
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[Poll]
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Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God?
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| yes |
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| no |
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| sometimes, but not often |
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Total Votes : 38
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(last vote on : 10/21/2008 9:03:06 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 12:30:26 PM
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DanJames
Posts: 681
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Benison = a spoken blessing or benediction. Thanks, es, I've learned a new word today although one might argue its correct usage in this context of divine action, rather than spoken blessing.
Quite right. I did not realize that benison was specific to a spoken blessing. Thanks for helping me re-learn a word I thought I knew.
And since drmark and I are having a rare love-fest, I'll quote the Bard:
God’s benison go with you, and with those
That would make good of bad, and friends of foes!
Woah, wait, what? What just happened? Did I log on to the wrong website?
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 1:00:48 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3150
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quote:
And since drmark and I are having a rare love-fest The simple fact is that I love you more than I routinely demonstrate to the readers of these threads, es. And that's a real benison! 
BTW, God loves you a whole lot more than you realize as well, es, with or without bad weather!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 1:48:52 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1742
Joined: 1/29/2007
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quote:
If bad weather is not a punishment from God, is good weather or other fortunate regional occurrence (a strong national economy, a good crop) similarly NOT a benison from God?
In my opinion, God doesn't use the weather for His purposes very often. I have heard some accounts (2nd hand, I'm afraid) of literally miraculous weather occurrences (ending of a drought after a day of fervent prayer, etc.), but by and large, I would say God lets weather run itself. He designed it that way, after all.
By way of example - the other day, some friends and I were eating at a local eatery, and it started raining rather heavily (after-effects of Ike, I believe). As soon as we had paid the bill and left, it slowed to a light drizzle. Then, when we got in the car, it started pouring again. I don't believe God turned a giant spigot in the sky to keep us a little bit dryer. If that were the case, it just wouldn't have rained period, since I'm sure there were lots of people out in that rainstorm who were not kept dry - like the homeless man I met while pumping gas. I believe that what happened on the way from the eatery to the car was creation at work, not a direct intervention from the Creator.
And I would comment on your other questions, but it's time for my lab class, alas.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 1:55:55 PM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
If things can happen to us over which God has no control, then on what basis would we seek God for comfort, protection and provision as Scripture regularly portrays the people of God doing?
Exactly.
The act of praying and believing God is listening to your prayers is comforting, but there is no evidence it reduces the chance of something bad happening to you or a loved one.
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 2:21:42 PM
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DanJames
Posts: 681
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
If things can happen to us over which God has no control, then on what basis would we seek God for comfort, protection and provision as Scripture regularly portrays the people of God doing?
Exactly.
The act of praying and believing God is listening to your prayers is comforting, but there is no evidence it reduces the chance of something bad happening to you or a loved one.
This is the old "praying to the gallon of milk" argument used to claim that God doesn't exist because He sometimes doesn't give greedy people what they pray for. Perhaps the function of prayer is to talk to God, and not run through one's shopping list. Children talk to their parents to tell them that they are hungry, yes, but mostly to talk to them because parents love their children and children love their parents. The parent knows whether or not they should give a 2 year old a steak knife and whether they should give a nine year old a shotgun, though the child may not be able to articulate why they are so deprived. It is not a matter of comfort, it is a matter of communing with Daddy.
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 2:32:15 PM
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drmark
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quote:
The act of praying and believing God is listening to your prayers is comforting, but there is no evidence it reduces the chance of something bad happening to you or a loved one. Not so, KaseyTom! Several studies have shown that patients receiving intercessory prayer may have better clinical outcomes. Here is an interesting article looking at "Does God Answer Prayer?"
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 2:52:43 PM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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I dont know...but if i had to make a guess id say it was, yes, in some situations.
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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 3:02:26 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Exactly.
The act of praying and believing God is listening to your prayers is comforting, but there is no evidence it reduces the chance of something bad happening to you or a loved one.
I appreciate the twisting of my words - but that's not what I said.
The fact that God doesn't modify a circumstance in response to a prayer doesn't mean He isn't in control. In fact, a God who responded to every human whim would equally lack control.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 3:05:11 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
The rain ...falls upon the just and the unjust alike; a thing which would not happen if I were superintending the rain's affairs. No, I would rain softly and sweetly on the just, but if I caught a sample of the unjust outdoors I would drown him.- Mark Twain, a Biography
You may both go stand in the hall, now.
I love Mark Twain as much as the next guy, but the problem with his evaluation is that if God drowned everyone who was unjust, who would be left?
Wait, didn't God already answer that question?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 3:44:59 PM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I appreciate the twisting of my words
Anytime. 
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 3:50:01 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Anytime.
Appreciate your honesty.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 5:11:30 PM
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DanJames
Posts: 681
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
The rain ...falls upon the just and the unjust alike; a thing which would not happen if I were superintending the rain's affairs. No, I would rain softly and sweetly on the just, but if I caught a sample of the unjust outdoors I would drown him.- Mark Twain, a Biography
You may both go stand in the hall, now.
I love Mark Twain as much as the next guy, but the problem with his evaluation is that if God drowned everyone who was unjust, who would be left?
Wait, didn't God already answer that question?
Ooh-- That was good.
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 9:25:41 PM
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Nothingman
Posts: 134
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Its a bit of both btw...we are neither wholly free nor wholly determined, as far as our capacity for freedom of action, thought and belief is concerned. There is a freedom within the constraints that our enviroment and experiences impose upon us.
As for the OP, no, natural disasters are not God's punishment or a result of His will. It is simply the result of "random" chances that some die while others don't from natural disasters. I don't see God's hand in any of that, other than the response of love and caring towards others, of determination and hope to carry on, that is elicited within those victims. THAT, if anything, is what God's role is in those situations.
I don't know what your beliefs are about God, but what would random events killing people do to God's presumed sovereignty?
I think a better way to phrase the question is, what does God's sovereignty do to God's nature?
Something is missing in conceiving of God as the omni-God: all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful. We can rehash the various defences to the POE all week long (thanks for the link nonetheless DR) and won't come up with anything that hasn't already been stated a thousands before for the last couple thousands of years. If God is all-powerful, fully sovereign over everything, then we are left with some fundamental problems to the notion of free will, first off, but more importantly, to the nature of God. For if we morally condemn a human being for either causing harm to another and/or not preventing harm to another when that human could easily have prevented it, then I don't see how that 'moral indignation' doesn't apply to God as well...If God has full coercive power, AND is all loving, it is a contradiction to allow abject suffering to occur, to allow injustice of the greatest magnitude to occur, to allow so much senseless pain...
...as far as your question, as I experience life, and as we all do of course, and as I notice all senseless evil that occurs that is a benefit to none, that falls upon the just as much, and often, more often, than the unjust, when loving and caring people die painful deaths from senseless diseases, when children are brutally raped and tortured, when natural disasters squash families, and on and on, I cannot but conclude that if there is a God, which I believe there is, he either is (A) not as morally good as we think he is (for how does he allow this to occur), OR (B) he IS purely good, he IS absolute love, he WANTS none of this to happen BUT he simply is not able to; he is in some sense limited in his capacity to intervene.
Now for me personally, I have experienced the love of God that is beyond my own capability, so I can only conclude the latter; in some sense (and we can debate how much he is limited, or why he is limited, ie, is God intrinsically limited by his very nature, or is he limited due to an inevitable act of self-limitation; its an interesting discussion)...things occur that beyond God's control...
I just think there is no other conclusion that satisfies our moral sensibilities, at least not mine...I'm not sure how to worship a God that lets evil occur to those he loves for some purported end if God is able to stop that...That's just me...
< Message edited by Nothingman -- 9/16/2008 9:33:21 PM >
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/18/2008 6:38:45 PM
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Nothingman
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I was hoping for at least a lil discussion... :(
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/18/2008 6:48:33 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3150
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quote:
That's just me... Apparently that sums up the majority opinion, Nothingman. I have nothing to say to a post that is riddled with personal philosophical musings, internal inconsistencies, and misguided faulty theology concerning the Triune God of the universe. Sorry that's not what you wanted to hear.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/18/2008 7:38:22 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:Nothingmanquote:
I cannot but conclude that if there is a God, which I believe there is, he either is (A) not as morally good as we think he is (for how does he allow this to occur), OR (B) he IS purely good, he IS absolute love, he WANTS none of this to happen BUT he simply is not able to; he is in some sense limited in his capacity to intervene.
There is an option that you evidently haven’t considered. Could it be that God is just a bit wiser than you?
God IS all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful. He has His reasons for allowing what He allows. My inability to understand why does not diminish God the least bit.
I wouldn’t waste my time worshiping a god that does nothing beyond my ability to understand.
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/18/2008 7:44:46 PM
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DanJames
Posts: 681
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGINAL:Nothingmanquote:
I cannot but conclude that if there is a God, which I believe there is, he either is (A) not as morally good as we think he is (for how does he allow this to occur), OR (B) he IS purely good, he IS absolute love, he WANTS none of this to happen BUT he simply is not able to; he is in some sense limited in his capacity to intervene.
There is an option that you evidently haven’t considered. Could it be that God is just a bit wiser than you?
God IS all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful. He has His reasons for allowing what He allows. My inability to understand why does not diminish God the least bit.
I wouldn’t waste my time worshiping a god that does nothing beyond my ability to understand.
We can't understand it all, but we can bow the knee to what we do know. It was sinful man that marred the earth with sin. Death, bloodshed, suffering, perhaps even bad weather, it's all our fault. It does, however, remind us that there is more to life than what we see here on earth. We are goaded to accept a more heavenly life, one where there is a promise of existence without child abuse, rape, theft, and murder. A life we don't deserve, but are offered nevertheless.
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/19/2008 3:19:41 AM
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whisperingwaters
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I said yes because we see countless times in the old testement where God caused drought to come upon a land as judgement why can He not cause rain also.
I would not say that someone in a costal area is more evil then someone in a land locked area but rather the judgement is against the nation that has sinned (i.e. aborted millions of babies).
I am particularly reminded of the verses about the drought of Elijah where he out ran Ahab in the abundance of rain that came after the drought (1kings 18:41-46) the drought was due to judgement against the land and would not end till Elijah prayed for rain.
I also remember the verse that says that God rains on the just and the unjust alike, that being said I would word it like this; if it is going to rain a rain of judgement on a people then that rain will also hit the just as well as the unjust.
If our nation was not so wicked then I believe we would have better wheather and better crops across the board.
I believe we will see more and more bad wheather as the days progress and the time of Christ's return draws closer, this I believe is one of the signs of the times that Jesus spoke of and if we can read the signs of the times we will realise that the end draws closer.
[edit] Even in Elijah's drought the drought was on the just and the unjust alike.
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The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the well-spring of wisdom as a flowing brook. Proverbs 18:4
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/19/2008 3:42:30 AM
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whisperingwaters
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[edit] irrelevent
< Message edited by whisperingwaters -- 9/19/2008 4:24:08 AM >
_____________________________
The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the well-spring of wisdom as a flowing brook. Proverbs 18:4
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/19/2008 9:49:05 AM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
If our nation was not so wicked then I believe we would have better wheather and better crops across the board.
We couldn't be too wicked because compared to the most of the world, death and destruction caused by natural events is small. We also have more food than we can possibly eat, and have so much corn we use the excess in out cars.
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/19/2008 8:57:33 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
We also have more food than we can possibly eat, and have so much corn we use the excess in out cars.
That's an interesting statement since the price of corn-based foods have gotten very high here. There can't be that much excess.
Agreed. The use of corn, etc. based fuel has tripled the price of food in some countries (such as Nicaragua). On a side note, this is a very real problem for these people because they cannot afford to pay 3x as much for their food... so they eat 1/3 as much instead.
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 10/12/2008 7:25:05 PM
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lightbeamrider
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Yes. Biblically the cause is man's sin the effect is in part is bad weather and or massive global climate change. Not greenhouse gases. From the fall of Adam in which the ground is cursed in Adam's place, (the serpent is cursed directly.) To the flood, to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah to the 10 plagues of Egypt, which were not all natural disasters. All the way through Revelation ''Creation groans...'' (Romans 8:20-22.) By the way, we can only speculate what conditions were like in the garden before the fall. The Rabbis described Adam as having his heel as bright as the sun and his face even brighter. It would appear Adam devolved after the fall as did creation.
In the Hebrew Scriptures Israel is God's object lesson for all of us and much can be learned in Deut. 28 regarding God's dealing with them. Do good u will be blessed, Do bad u will be cursed and some of them curses have to do with natural disasters.
Hey i did not write the book. I just studied it for the last 20 years.
''Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written in his own blood.'' Nietzsche.
''When out to describe the truth. Leave elegance to the tailor.'' Einstein
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